Drones and how to kill them?

Hrm.

I was hoping for a pretty narrow beam for the HPM, since that allows pretty tight shots past friendlies. I'd give the "claymore" types to infantry to use in place of or in addition to their high speed ATGM (an ATGM fast enough to be a reasonable threat to an aircraft, a multi-role missile like ADATS but man-portable like Javelin)
 
QWIC has 20mm ammunition with a programmer processor that, with the help of a laser rangefinder, determined the distance at which it could explode.
This is exactly the kind of ammunition be used in defense against drones if it can be detected and ranged of drone.
 
kocovgoce said:
QWIC has 20mm ammunition with a programmer processor that, with the help of a laser rangefinder, determined the distance at which it could explode.
This is exactly the kind of ammunition be used in defense against drones if it can be detected and ranged of drone.
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I'm not sure that 20mm has enough volume for a decent number of fragments plus a fancy programmable fuze. That was certainly an issue with the XM29, and why the US went to a 25mm for the XM25 CDTE grenade launcher.
 
Part of me wonders if the standard infantry rifles is gonna get replaced with shotguns or some kind payload gun in future formations.

You need quite a bit of dakka when faced with the swarm.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I'm not sure that 20mm has enough volume for a decent number of fragments plus a fancy programmable fuze. That was certainly an issue with the XM29, and why the US went to a 25mm for the XM25 CDTE grenade launcher.
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Needs to be point out that the switch from the 20 to 25 was push by Rumsfield hard for reasons I forget.

The Army 20mm had a confirm 3 meter kill radius through a Kelver helmet, and a 5 meter causality radius. Which was exactly to the wanted specs for it use in popping rooms through windows.

As such it would shred cheap drones if you able to get the timing well.

Which be the issue. Getting the round to pop right where you need it. Sure the tech on the shell there...

But you need to get an accurate distance on the drone with a freaking laser while basically playing dodge ball. Would prefer a Cone sensor to give the soldiers the best chance to get the target and blast it.
 
shin_getter said:
Part of me wonders if the standard infantry rifles is gonna get replaced with shotguns or some kind payload gun in future formations.

You need quite a bit of dakka when faced with the swarm.
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They are actually already in use in Ukraine for this exact purpose. In one of the craziest videos from the war, so far, a Russian soldier was riding down a dirt road on a motorcycle when he suddenly heard/saw an approaching drone. Dude immediately pulled over, took out the shotgun & blew the drone to pieces before getting back on his bike & continuing on his way as if nothing had happened.

Unbelievable, lol.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Hrm.

I was hoping for a pretty narrow beam for the HPM, since that allows pretty tight shots past friendlies. I'd give the "claymore" types to infantry to use in place of or in addition to their high speed ATGM (an ATGM fast enough to be a reasonable threat to an aircraft, a multi-role missile like ADATS but man-portable like Javelin)
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The point of HPM is to have a wide area of effect to deal with drone swarms. For more precise targeting you are better off with lasers.
 
Firefinder said:
Needs to be point out that the switch from the 20 to 25 was push by Rumsfield hard for reasons I forget.

The Army 20mm had a confirm 3 meter kill radius through a Kelver helmet, and a 5 meter causality radius. Which was exactly to the wanted specs for it use in popping rooms through windows.
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But it then sucks outside. Which is probably why Rummy pushed for a caliber change.

The 20mm would be good for urban fighting, but the 25mm or a 30mm would be better for general use.

Firefinder said:
As such it would shred cheap drones if you able to get the timing well.

Which be the issue. Getting the round to pop right where you need it. Sure the tech on the shell there...

But you need to get an accurate distance on the drone with a freaking laser while basically playing dodge ball. Would prefer a Cone sensor to give the soldiers the best chance to get the target and blast it.
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Yeah, it'd take a baby radar install on the weapon to do that. Which is a good $100k. And even then I'd be worried about EFP type weapons firing outside the range of infantry-carried defensive weapons.
 
Scott Kenny said:
But it then sucks outside. Which is probably why Rummy pushed for a caliber change.
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Um... No.

Just no, Rummy was a idiot who did not know anything but politics.

3 meter kill radius is around ten feet, Thats more then enough to for outdoor work. Heck the 40mm aaverageis a 6 meter or bout 20 foot raduis and the XM25 4 meter or 12 foot radius. With the 29 you basically taking out 3 parking spots worth of people, which is the average spacing for line infantry in the open.

In say the Trenches of Ukraine? Or the Korean Defensive lines? It been a reaper. Even in the desert it would be more then enough to tear the guts out of who it face.

Alot of countries used 20mm grenades and find thrm just fine for antipersonal and light vehicle work.

Scott Kenny said:
, it'd take a baby radar install on the weapon to do that. Which is a good $100k. And even then I'd be worried about EFP type weapons firing outside the range of infantry-carried defensive weapons.
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Theres is not a EFP that will outrange an Infranry weapon. The XM29 20mm was good to 800 meters, the 25 got nearly 1000 due to a newer sight and laser.

EFPs maxes out at around 20 to 30 meters. even something like the claymore has a 50 meter fan.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That was certainly an issue with the XM29, and why the US went to a 25mm for the XM25 CDTE grenade launcher.
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That was the official reason at the time; it later turned out that Rumsfeld wanted a 25mm grenade launcher and so he had test results faked to make it seem like a 20mm grenade and the XM29 in general could not meet the Army's needs. Which is how the U.S. Army ended up with the disasters that were the XM8 and the XM25 (though the former could have been possibly salvaged in some form). Transformation in action.
 
7 soldiers equipped with 20 mm QWIC destroyed a platoon of 75 people during the simulations
 
NMaude said:
Metal Storm vs Drone? Hell! Yes! This sort of feels like something out of one of John Birmingham's World War 2.X "Axis of Time" series.
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Iirc metal storm was just a giant volley gun, so good luck reloading before the second drone arrives.
 
Firefinder said:
Alot of countries used 20mm grenades and find thrm just fine for antipersonal and light vehicle work.
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There are exactly two 20mm grenade launchers I'm aware of. The Inkunzi PAW-20 from South Africa and the Korean K11. The PAW-20 is not standard issue, and the K11 did not replace the 40mm underbarrel grenade launchers in the RoK Army squad.


Firefinder said:
Theres is not a EFP that will outrange an Infranry weapon. The XM29 20mm was good to 800 meters, the 25 got nearly 1000 due to a newer sight and laser.

EFPs maxes out at around 20 to 30 meters. even something like the claymore has a 50 meter fan.
Click to expand...
How far away can you hit a flying clay pigeon with a rifle?
 
Scott Kenny said:
There are exactly two 20mm grenade launchers I'm aware of. The Inkunzi PAW-20 from South Africa and the Korean K11. The PAW-20 is not standard issue, and the K11 did not replace the 40mm underbarrel grenade launchers in the RoK Army squad.



How far away can you hit a flying clay pigeon with a rifle?
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Theres a few others. Point is that Rummy did not know what the fuck he was talking bout and fuck the program HARD with his idoticacy. 4 meters kill radius is perfectly fine for most military work. That is through Armor that is still consider standard, the Modern Kelvar is basically the PASAG Shaped differently. Being able to punch through that and kill you with steel shrapnel is nothing to scuffed at.

As for the clay pigeon? 100 meters easy if the shell explodes near it.

Which they did do with the XM29 as a WOWIWEE Test and they ended up being able to smack clays out to 200 meters before the computer delay got them.

A modern version? Likely as far as you can see them
 
Firefinder said:
Theres a few others. Point is that Rummy did not know what the fuck he was talking bout and fuck the program HARD with his idoticacy. 4 meters kill radius is perfectly fine for most military work. That is through Armor that is still consider standard, the Modern Kelvar is basically the PASAG Shaped differently. Being able to punch through that and kill you with steel shrapnel is nothing to scuffed at.

As for the clay pigeon? 100 meters easy if the shell explodes near it.

Which they did do with the XM29 as a WOWIWEE Test and they ended up being able to smack clays out to 200 meters before the computer delay got them.

A modern version? Likely as far as you can see them
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They said rifle.
There’s no rifles with airbursting rounds.
 
Grey Havoc said:
That was the official reason at the time; it later turned out that Rumsfeld wanted a 25mm grenade launcher and so he had test results faked to make it seem like a 20mm grenade and the XM29 in general could not meet the Army's needs. Which is how the U.S. Army ended up with the disasters that were the XM8 and the XM25 (though the former could have been possibly salvaged in some form). Transformation in action.
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As much as I detest some of the decisions Rumsfeld took, I don't see why he would particularly be motivated to intervene here and push for the separate 25mm grenade launcher. I think there was some good reasoning behind the larger 25mm grenades, but many other aspects of that program leave me scratching my head.

From what I read, once the launcher became a separate item there seemed to be a reoccurrence of the old issue where grenadiers will often still want to be carrying a rifle, and once they are some would rather just be carrying more ammo for that rifle instead of grenades. That obviously defeats the whole point. Then again, the same thing sometimes occurs with underbarrel grenade launchers.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
As much as I detest some of the decisions Rumsfeld took, I don't see why he would particularly be motivated to intervene here and push for the separate 25mm grenade launcher. I think there was some good reasoning behind the larger 25mm grenades, but many other aspects of that program leave me scratching my head.

From what I read, once the launcher became a separate item there seemed to be a reoccurrence of the old issue where grenadiers will often still want to be carrying a rifle, and once they are some would rather just be carrying more ammo for that rifle instead of grenades. That obviously defeats the whole point. Then again, the same thing sometimes occurs with underbarrel grenade launchers.
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When the Rangers had XM25s, they mostly preferred carrying it, as the 25mm round was worth more than yet another M4 (that probably couldn't even reach the ridgetop that the Taliban were shooting from anyways).
 

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