Its not as if the RN didn't commission a bunch of new and heavily rebuilt carriers in the 50s.
Well, "new". All of those "new" carriers had been laid down during the Second World War and then spent a decade or more sitting on the stocks. The fact that they already existed was a significant boon to getting them completed, because it would cost less and take less time than designing and building an entirely new bespoke design, and, well, they existed. Tangibly.

As for rebuilds, well, one of them was a boondoggle everyone agrees should have been scaled way back if not cancelled entirely and the other nonetheless proved faster and cheaper than a new carrier.

Speaking to your scenario in particular, the problem is Korea. Korea opened the purse strings - and then sent all that money into mobilization for Korea, leaving not a whole lot for a big-ticket capital project like an aircraft carrier. It's worth noting that both the restart of Victorious' rebuild and the restart of Hermes' construction both had to wait until after Korea.
 
The Mark N5 had double the rate of fire of the 6"/47 Mk. 16, and compared to the DP variant of that gun it was rather more reliable.
Holy crap! I stand corrected, then.

Which also explains why the 6" Mark N5 was so heavy, I take it. I know the US 8" Mk16 automatic was about triple the weight of the 8" Mk15 bagged charge gun, and the 5"/54 was about twice the weight of the 5"/38 (16cal longer barrel is not particularly significant in the case of the whole dang turret!).
 
Holy crap! I stand corrected, then.

Which also explains why the 6" Mark N5 was so heavy, I take it. I know the US 8" Mk16 automatic was about triple the weight of the 8" Mk15 bagged charge gun, and the 5"/54 was about twice the weight of the 5"/38 (16cal longer barrel is not particularly significant in the case of the whole dang turret!).
You need to spend some time here
 
Well, "new". All of those "new" carriers had been laid down during the Second World War and then spent a decade or more sitting on the stocks. The fact that they already existed was a significant boon to getting them completed, because it would cost less and take less time than designing and building an entirely new bespoke design, and, well, they existed. Tangibly.

As for rebuilds, well, one of them was a boondoggle everyone agrees should have been scaled way back if not cancelled entirely and the other nonetheless proved faster and cheaper than a new carrier.

New to politicians who have to approve this stuff, they aren't going to be swayed by detailed technical arguments about why the 1952 carrier is better than the Hermes or Ark Royal, or believe that rebuilding Victorious will be almost as expensive as a new ship.

The Victorious was a massive stuff up, they should have known at the start what condition her boilers were in.
Speaking to your scenario in particular, the problem is Korea. Korea opened the purse strings - and then sent all that money into mobilization for Korea, leaving not a whole lot for a big-ticket capital project like an aircraft carrier. It's worth noting that both the restart of Victorious' rebuild and the restart of Hermes' construction both had to wait until after Korea.

Yes, building up a fleet is a peacetime task, in wartime you build what can be delivered immediately which tends to be warplanes not warships.
 
Parts of Post 39.
Mm, I'm not so sure about these parts, because "Hermes standard" was more than just the new flight deck arrangement, steam catapults, and radar fit. It also included major structural modifications in the form of a portside deck-edge elevator and, most importantly, a hanger deck strengthened to handle planes over 30,000 lbs.
I genuinely don't think such deep modifications are possible on Centaur, Albion, and Bulwark, and performing them on Hermes was, IIRC, a big reason why she finished in 1959 - just a lot of work to do on both the design and construction side.
Firstly and for what it's worth I expected accelerating the development of the steam catapult by 4 years so it was ready to enter service on Eagle in 1951 instead of Ark Royal in 1955 to be the main objection to my proposal.

Secondly, the earlier angled flight deck trials (on Warrior in the late 1940s instead of Triumph in the early 1950s) mean the changes can be incorporated into all 4 ships when their construction was less advanced. Hermes was launched in 1953 and AFAIK the decision to complete her to a modified design was taken circa 1953-54. Albion, Bulwark & Centaur were launched 1947-48 and the decision to complete all 4 ships to the same standard as Hermes in 1959 IOTL (less the advanced electronics) would be taken sometime between 1948 and 1950.

Maybe that was still too late to have Albion, Bulwark & Centaur completed 1953-54 with a port-side deck edge lift and 151ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults. However, they could have at least been completed to the same standard as Centaur after her 1956-58 refit which included a pair of 139ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults and decks that were strong enough to handle the Scimitar and Sea Vixen.
 
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Part of Post 41.
Speaking to your scenario in particular, the problem is Korea. Korea opened the purse strings - and then sent all that money into mobilization for Korea, leaving not a whole lot for a big-ticket capital project like an aircraft carrier. It's worth noting that both the restart of Victorious' rebuild and the restart of Hermes' construction both had to wait until after Korea.
Is that why work on the Tiger class didn't resume until 1954 when the decision to complete them was taken in 1951?
 
I'd love to know where this went wrong, because the missile isn't significantly different in size to Tartar/Standard MR. It ought to have been able to fit in a launcher the size of a Mark 11 or Mark 13. I suspect the Good Idea Fairy had been visiting the ordnance department.

Whatever requirements led to the provision of a rectangular, multi-track magazine, as opposed to a rotary carousel.

(Also, I tried to append my original quote that YP is responding to, but can’t get the forum functions to comply.)
 
The previous destroyer class, the Darings, were open-bridged - as were the C-class destroyers that bulked out the destroyer fleet.
And there were plenty of staff officers who'd come up driving open-bridged destroyers, busily writing letters and memoranda about how closed bridges isolated the OOW from the environment and prevented him from properly understanding how the weather was affecting his ship.

There's a reason why the Type 15 frigates didn't have a bridge at all - the only way to convince war-veteran officers to fight the ship from the Operations Room was to make it impossible for them to do it from anywhere else.

Firstly, the Darings and Counties are conceptually worlds apart. I was a bit taken aback when it was pointed out that the predecessors to the 'advanced' guided missile, helicopter carrying Counties were the late WW2 vintage Daring gun destroyers.

Secondly, apparently the open bridge was for the Med where you needed to see the enemy (ie dive bombers) coming. However during service the Daring bridges were enclosed, presumably as radar improved and became more important.
 
The angled flight deck could have been invented sooner. All it required was for someone to have the "Eureka" moment. Say have Warrior test it in the late 1940s instead of the flexible deck. Could the development of the steam catapult have been accelerated so the OTL trials on Perseus could have been brought forward about 4 years? My guess is, no it wasn't, because it would have involved spending money and using resources that weren't available.

If both were possible then:
  • Eagle (ex-Irresistible) would have been completed in 1951 to at least the same standard as Ark Royal in 1955 IOTL. That is with a pair of 151ft BS.4 steam catapults and an interim angled flight deck. I wrote at least, because if we're lucky it might have been possible to give her a fully angled flight deck instead of an interim one.
  • Albion, Bulwark & Centaur could have been completed 1953-54 to the same standard as Hermes in 1959 IOTL minus the advanced electronics.
  • Ark Royal
    • Completed 1955 with a fully angled flight deck instead of an interim one.
      • Or.
    • Completed 1952 to the same standard as 1955 IOTL. According to Marriott the decision to fit steam catapults and an angled flight deck delayed her completion from late 1952 to early 1955.
      • Or
    • Completed 1952 with a fully angled flight deck instead of an interim one.
  • Hermes completed 1955 to the same standard as herself in 1959 IOTL minus the advanced electronics.
    • The third Audacious isn't cancelled in 1946. Instead she's suspended and her name is changed from Eagle to Irresistible. Construction is resumed in 1950 and she's completed in 1958 to the same standard as Victorious after her OTL "great rebuild"of 1950-58 IOTL. That is two BS.4 steam catapults (but 151ft stroke), a fully angled flight deck, an AC electrical system, a Type 984 radar, CDS and DPT.
      • Or.
    • Or construction is resumed in 1950 and she's completed circa 1955 with the steam catapults, fully angled flight deck and AC electrical system, but without the advanced electronics.
  • Melbourne & Bonaventure might have been completed sooner and if they were Sydney might have been fitted with a steam catapult & angled flight deck too.
  • I don't know if the Dutch would have rebuilt Karel Doorman sooner if the angled flight deck and steam catapult were invented sooner.
  • This would have a knock-on effect on the Essex and Forrestal class aircraft carriers in the USN.
    • All 15 Essex class that had the SCB.27 refit would have been fitted with steam catapults and an angled flight deck as part of the refit.
    • All 4 Forrestals would have had the port side deck edge lift in a different position so it didn't interfere with the angled flight deck.
    • Some or all of the 15 Essex class might have had the port side deck edge lift in a different position so it didn't interfere with the angled flight deck too.
If accelerating development of the steam catapult was possible the RN would have had 6 or 7 aircraft carriers with steam catapults (and angled flight decks) by the "Year of Maximum Danger" instead of one. That's important because it gives the RN 6 or 7 ships in the middle 1950s that can operate aircraft like the Scimitar & Sea Vixen when it only had one (Ark Royal) IOTL. In the longer term it provides the RN with 3 ships (the Audacious class) that can be refitted to operate Phantoms.

IIRC Hermes, the rebuilt Victorious, the Tiger class, half the Daring class and 4 Battles converted to fleet pickets had AC electrical systems. Is there a feasible way to have more of the ships completed after 1945 built with AC electrical systems? In particular Albion, Ark Royal, Bulwark, Centaur and Eagle.
Regarding the steam catapult.
Here is an article from publisher’s Pen and Sword about David Hobbs’s ‘British Carrier Strike Fleet after 1945….

“The steam catapult was also the work of a man with wartime naval experience. Commander C C Mitchell RNVR had proposed the development of a slotted cylinder catapult to the Admiralty in the late 1930s but, with the minimal requirement to catapult the light naval aircraft. mostly biplanes at that time, the existing hydraulic catapults had been deemed adequate and the idea, although recognised as sound, was not progressed. However, with the greatly increased weight of naval aircraft after 1945 and the prospect of even heavier jet aircraft in the near future that would have to be launched by catapults, hydraulic catapults were recognised as being at the end of their development potential. Mitchell resumed work on his concept and was able to hasten the construction of a test item when he found that the Germans had used a similar catapult to launch V-1 ‘flying-bombs’. He acquired components through the British Intelligence Operational Survey Team and the result was a prototype catapult in which rams were driven along parallel cylinders by steam pressure. A cradle linked the rams so that they ran along their cylinders together and provided the structure on which the towing shuttle was fixed. This ran along a slot at flight deck level, pulling the aircraft forward by means of a wire strop which was looped at either end onto hooks on the underside of aircraft. Rubber seals ran along the tops of the cylinders which were forced open by devices on the leading edges of the cradle and resealed behind it to allow its passage without significant loss of steam pressure. High pressure steam was provided from the ship’s boilers and stored in large accumulators at up to 4,000 psi.”

From this, it seems that it is very possible for the steam catapult to be brought into service sooner, especially bearing in mind the fact that even before the end of the War, Naval aircraft (the Fairey Spearfish springs to mind), aircraft weights and sizes were increasing rapidly.

As regards the Angle Flight Deck, it only really needs the concept of the ‘Flexible Deck’ be consigned to the bin of wacky/impractical ideas, rather like many of the weird and strange proposed inventions were during the war. Yes, I KNOW there were some real Duds (the Giant Pandjandrum springs to mind)…
 
On the catapult issue, could the catapults planned for launching P.13/36 aircraft have bene modified for carrier use.

Pneumatic but planned to launch a Manchester in 270ft?
 
Maybe the RN should have marinized, sorry this is a thread about the RN, not the USN, I meant to write marinised, the Spey instead of the Tyne and Olympus. This would have given them one engine instead of two, meaning economies of scale, simplified training, parts supply, etc. I don't see 1 Spey, 2 Spey, 3 Spey, 4 Spey being worse than 1 Tyne, 2 Tyne, 1 Tyne, 1 Oly, 2 Oly as choices for speeds.
The timing just doesn’t allow it - Tyne and Olympus are developed in the 50s - the Olympus being the older. She also benefits from an early-60s plan by the German Navy to use her in an all-gas turbine ship.

Spey is a bit of a ‘surprise’ engine, a cut-down Medway to fit in the shrunk HSA Trident airliner, that excelled in the civil and military market - but only from the mid-60s.
FWIW @Airbus A340 Fan accelerating the development of the gas turbine for warship propulsion was discussed several times here and probably on Alternatehistory.com as well.

I've proposed an all GT County class DLG with 8 G.6 gas turbines in COGAG and a Super Type 81 with 4 G.6s in COGAG driving 2 shafts. The latter would have been built instead of the OTL Rothesay, Tribal & Leander classes and possibly another 4 instead of the conversions of 4 Battle class (1943) to fleet pickets.

IOTL the Proteus first ran in 1947 to be followed by the Olympus in 1950 and the Tyne in 1955. Therefore, it's feasible to have the Type 14 frigate Exmouth completed in 1957 with one Olympus and 2 Proteus in COGOG instead of having her refitted with that powerplant 1966-68 as IOTL. The next stage would be the all GT County with 4 Olympus engines in COGAG and the Super Type 81 with 2 Olympus and 2 Tyne engines in COGOG. Then the next stage might have been to develop Marine Spey for the TTL versions of Types 21, 22 and 42 to have 2 Speys & 2 Tynes in COGAG and for the TTL Type 82 to have 4 Speys in COGAG.

Where I think things went wrong was in 1946 when the Admiralty decided to develop bespoke marine gas turbines instead of modifying aircraft gas turbines. According to Leo Marriott that's when the Admiralty let contracts for the English Electric EL60 and Rolls Royce for the RM60. The former was to have been fitted to the turbo-electric powered Captain class frigate Hotham, but its development was abandoned in 1952 after shore trials showed that the plant was overweight and not flexible for operation so the Hotham (which had been taken in hand for conversion) was returned to the USA and scrapped. Meanwhile, two RM60s were installed on the steam gunboat Grey Goose which recommissioned in 1955 and although it proved to be an excellent powerplant the complexity of the design led to high development costs so no further development work on the design was carried out after the completion of trials on Grey Goose.

Therefore, if they'd stuck to modified aircraft gas turbines and ordered marine versions of the Avon and Sapphire in 1946 maybe Grey Goose would have recommissioned well before 1955 and the Hotham would have recommissioned with one of those engines in the early 1950s. Provided that the trials were successful (and they may not have been) that may have led to one of the Type 14s being completed with an all GT powerplant for competitive trials against the steam powered ships of he class and for the County class and Type 81 to have all GT machinery too.
 
Bear in mind that the RN was far and away the earliest adopter of marine GTs, commissioning the Type 81 from 1961 and County from 1962 while the USN didn't commission the Spruance until 1975 and the OHP until 1977.

You can't blame naval officers in the 50s for hedging their bets, they knew steam worked but had no data on GTs in large warships. We know now that GTs are great and they transformed the life cycle costs of warships, but it took the Counties, Type 81s and Bristol to prove that. By starting ~15 years later the RN gathered the data for the USN, they didn't need any hybrid ships.
 
Bear in mind that the RN was far and away the earliest adopter of marine GTs, commissioning the Type 81 from 1961 and County from 1962 while the USN didn't commission the Spruance until 1975 and the OHP until 1977.

You can't blame naval officers in the 50s for hedging their bets, they knew steam worked but had no data on GTs in large warships. We know now that GTs are great and they transformed the life cycle costs of warships, but it took the Counties, Type 81s and Bristol to prove that. By starting ~15 years later the RN gathered the data for the USN, they didn't need any hybrid ships.
I bore that in mind before writing Post 52 and stand by it as I was providing a way for the RN to acquire data on GTs in large warships so there was no need to hedge its bets.

The first large warship with all GT machinery was the Soviet Kashin class. The first of which was laid down in 1959 & completed in 1962. This is analogous with the first County class (laid down 1959 & completed 1962) and the first Type 81 (laid down 1958 & completed 1961).
 
You can't blame naval officers in the 50s for hedging their bets, they knew steam worked but had no data on GTs in large warships. We know now that GTs are great and they transformed the life cycle costs of warships, but it took the Counties, Type 81s and Bristol to prove that. By starting ~15 years later the RN gathered the data for the USN, they didn't need any hybrid ships.
It was more about USN lagging behind (mainly because American admirals assumed in late 1950s than in near future all surface warships would be nuclear-powered), than RN being forward. USSR laid down its first gas turbine destroyers in late 1950s as well.
 
I don't think the RN or USN took their lead from the Soviets.

Good point about nuclear, but I think that notion faded pretty fast. The vast up front cost became apparent very early, but the USN hadn't adjusted its thinking to justify the cost to the pollies. I recall something about the destroyer reactor being too tall as well.
 
The first sentence of Post 35.
US Cruisers were much bigger, entirely free from the constraints of the 1936 London Treaty, based upon earlier Washington Treaty compliant designs, but also no longer bound by those limits either.
As far as I know it was the British Delegation at the Second London Naval Conference that had the maximum size of an aircraft carrier reduced from 27,000 tons to 23,000 tons (they wanted 22,000 tons) and the maximum size of a cruiser from 10,000 tons to 8,000 tons (they wanted 7,600 tons).

I think this was an own goal of considerable proportions in the short and long terms.

E.g. Colonies, Swiftsures and Tigers using the Edinburgh hull and machinery would have been able to support a heavier armament and/or better electronics like the Type 984 radar. Although it's probable that (in common with the real Tiger class) they would have been no cheaper to build and taken as long to build as new cruisers carrying the same weapons and sensors.

Had the six 23,000 ton aircraft carriers of OTL been built to a larger 27,000 ton design it would have been quicker and cheaper to rebuild them because the reconstruction would have been less drastic. That is they would have had taller hangars so there would have been no need to dismantle them to the hangar deck and then rebuild them with a new taller hangar. They might have had enough freeboard to incorporate a deck edge too. Most important of all there's a good chance that longer (and more powerful) steam catapults could have been fitted which would have allowed them to operate Phantom class aircraft.
 
Had the six 23,000 ton aircraft carriers of OTL been built to a larger 27,000 ton design it would have been quicker and cheaper to rebuild them because the reconstruction would have been less drastic. That is they would have had taller hangars so there would have been no need to dismantle them to the hangar deck and then rebuild them with a new taller hangar. They might have had enough freeboard to incorporate a deck edge too. Most important of all there's a good chance that longer (and more powerful) steam catapults could have been fitted which would have allowed them to operate Phantom class aircraft.
Unfortunately, no, it would have been only a little less drastic. They would still be short enough steam on their worn-out, obsolescent boilers for steam catapults to necessitate a machinery replacement to be viable long-term, and their elevators and flight decks would still need reconstruction to operate large jet aircraft. And then we get into their electrical systems, which need a comprehensive overhaul to operate modern 50s electronics.
 
If you go pre-war then you invalidate the premise, because you can change all sorts of things to put Britain in a better position by ~1950. Of course these changes alter the course of WW2, likely for the better for Britain, therefore she isn't in quite so dire straits in 1950 that she has to chop up and stitch back together a war-worn carrier; TWICE!
 
Unfortunately, no, it would have been only a little less drastic. They would still be short enough steam on their worn-out, obsolescent boilers for steam catapults to necessitate a machinery replacement to be viable long-term, and their elevators and flight decks would still need reconstruction to operate large jet aircraft. And then we get into their electrical systems, which need a comprehensive overhaul to operate modern 50s electronics.
According to Marriott some of the boilers on Victorious had been damaged in an accidental fire and that's why new boilers had to be installed, but that's the only place where I've read it. Actually the new boilers produced 110,000shp and the old ones produced 111,000shp. Implacable & Implacable had boilers that produced 148,000shp which wasn't far short of the 152,000shp produced by Ark Royal & Eagle and as the ships saw considerably less war service than the first 4 was in much better condition.

My guess is that the 27,000 ton version of the Illustrious would have had 4-shaft machinery from the start and that they'd in effect be diminutives of the Audacious class. That is they'd have one full-length hangar with 17½ft clearance and wide enough to accommodate aircraft that folded to 13½ft four abreast instead of the 2 hangars that the Audacious class had or they'd have two full length hangars each with at least 14ft clearance and wide enough to accommodate aircraft that folded to 13½ft four abreast.

According to Marriott the OTL rebuilding of Victorious included stripping the hull to the hangar deck. That would have been avoided entirely if she'd been built with a 17½ft clearance single deck hangar. If she had been built with two full length hangars with clearances of between 14ft and 17½ft maybe they could have been knocked into one large hangar with the required clearance.

For what it's worth I still think the RN would have been better off building new aircraft carriers instead of rebuilding the Illustrious class.
 
If you go pre-war then you invalidate the premise, because you can change all sorts of things to put Britain in a better position by ~1950. Of course these changes alter the course of WW2, likely for the better for Britain, therefore she isn't in quite so dire straits in 1950 that she has to chop up and stitch back together a war-worn carrier; TWICE!
FWIW I know the POD is VJ Day and what I wrote was to give some background information that would help to explain why the RN was between a rock and a hard place after World War Two.
 
Yes, the Labour Party (with a bit of help from a Truman Administration, and State Department in particular, that was absolutely determined that the US would supplant the British Empire and Commonwealth in the post-World War II world, not realising that they would be ultimately shooting themselves in the foot big time, even before 'Truman lost China') really did foul up royally. And then some!

EDIT: It has to be said that President Eisenhower didn't help matters later on either when he got conned by the dear old State Department into stabbing Great Britian and France in the back during the Suez Crisis; even he admitted later that it was one of the worst blunders he ever made.
 
Let us cut through the politics of this thread to what the RN is and always has been about.
From 1945 to the present day only one navy has constituted a clear threat to the United Kingdom by virtue of being.
The Russian Navy has to be the focus of Britain's seapower.
Once you accept this, the sort of ships and aircraft you need become very different from "East of Suez" fantasies.
Let me add that this is not an anti-Soviet or Russian rant. It merely recognises that no other navy has the same scope to threaten Britain, and does not see this threat as inevitable.
The US and French Navies are of course also fleets in being but as both countries (perhaps reluctantly) have been our allies for over a century they do not constitute enemies.
 
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FWIW I know the POD is VJ Day and what I wrote was to give some background information that would help to explain why the RN was between a rock and a hard place after World War Two.

Yeah, I know.

But when I start getting off track my thinking spirals out of control and I start cutting the war short by years with all the awesome kit I dream up.
 
Let us cut through the politics of this thread to what the RN is and always has been about.
From 1945 to the present day only one navy has constituted a clear threat to the United Kingdom by virtue of being.
The Russian Navy has to be the focus of Britain's seapower.
Once you accept this, the sort of ships and aircraft you need become very different from "East of Suez" fantasies.
Let me add that this is not an anti-Soviet or Russian rant. It merely recognises that no other navy has the same scope to threaten Britain, and does not see this threat as inevitable.

True, and in 1948 the Soviet threat was their sub fleet, which needed frigates to defend against.
 
Fortunately, Britain along with the US and Canada had learned during WW2 the importance of ASW above, on and under the water.
One of my happier memories was meeting a man who had commanded one of HM's hunter killer subs. He suggested I read the just published Clancy novel "Hunt for Red October". Clancy's respect for the RN and USN but also the Soviet and French Navies is clear in his various books.
 
Fortunately, Britain along with the US and Canada had learned during WW2 the importance of ASW above, on and under the water.
One of my happier memories was meeting a man who had commanded one of HM's hunter killer subs. He suggested I read the just published Clancy novel "Hunt for Red October". Clancy's respect for the RN and USN but also the Soviet and French Navies is clear in his various books.
My favorite XO was one of the exchange officers that went to the UK Perisher school as his prospective Commanding Officer school instead of the US version.

He was mightily impressed with the UK submariners.
 
IIUC the Perisher has been SSN only for decades now, so they replicated the conventional course in Norway. The RAN will probably go back to the RN perisher when we get our SSNs.

On submarines, does anyone know anything about the Excalibur class of hydrogen peroxide subs?
 
IIUC the Perisher has been SSN only for decades now, so they replicated the conventional course in Norway. The RAN will probably go back to the RN perisher when we get our SSNs.

On submarines, does anyone know anything about the Excalibur class of hydrogen peroxide subs?
 
Controversial statement time.
It's a pity that Korea disrupted the 10 year rule.

In 1939 the RN didn't have re-tread WW1 ships, it had mostly new construction (however impaired by Treaty restrictions they were new ships with the then latest kit).
In 1953 the RN was looking at new ships and re-treading existing and unfinished WW2 hulls. In some ways it's a pity that in 1947 all the unfinished hulls weren't sold to BISCO to be scrapped along with all the other retired hulks. Then the RN would have had to have started from scratch and the Treasury release funds for new ships. Sure we might have been short of hulls in some categories (but by 1948 most of the fleet is laid up anyway), but at least it wouldn't be wasting money practically rebuilding ships on the stocks, trying to make them fit for the electronics-heavy missile-armed atomic world of the 1950s.
 
Controversial statement time.
It's a pity that Korea disrupted the 10 year rule.

In 1939 the RN didn't have re-tread WW1 ships,
??
All those old capital ships, 27(of total 64) cruisers of WW1 designed Town, C,D,E & Hawkins class, 80 WW1 designd R,S,V, & Leader class destroyers, 12 (out of a total sub fleet of about 50) WW1 designed H & L class subs etc. Some may not have been completed until the 1920s but they were still WW1 designs with many ships being dragged out of Reserve.
it had mostly new construction (however impaired by Treaty restrictions they were new ships with the then latest kit).
The first major RN rearmament programmme was the 1936 Programme. About the only fruit from that in service by Aug 1939 were the two Belfast class cruisers & J class destroyers and a mere handful of T class subs. Most of the K class destroyers arrived before the year as out.

It was 1940 before the KGV, Illustrious, Dido, Fiji classes began to complete.


Hood said:-
In 1953 the RN was looking at new ships and re-treading existing and unfinished WW2 hulls. In some ways it's a pity that in 1947 all the unfinished hulls weren't sold to BISCO to be scrapped along with all the other retired hulks. Then the RN would have had to have started from scratch and the Treasury release funds for new ships. Sure we might have been short of hulls in some categories (but by 1948 most of the fleet is laid up anyway), but at least it wouldn't be wasting money practically rebuilding ships on the stocks, trying to make them fit for the electronics-heavy missile-armed atomic world of the 1950s.

EwenS:
Oh to live in a perfect world, with the golden money tree!

But yes, with hindsight it would have been best. But the RN lived in hope, however unrealistic.
 
All those old capital ships, 27(of total 64) cruisers of WW1 designed Town, C,D,E & Hawkins class, 80 WW1 designd R,S,V, & Leader class destroyers, 12 (out of a total sub fleet of about 50) WW1 designed H & L class subs etc. Some may not have been completed until the 1920s but they were still WW1 designs with many ships being dragged out of Reserve.
But those were built ships already in service.
Imagine if Hood had sat on the stocks until 1935 before she was completed having been messed around two or three times in the interim, or the uncompleted V&Ws not completed until 1930 to a new design. Thankfully that didn't happen.
Washington at least cut a lot of dead wood.

About the only fruit from that in service by Aug 1939 were the two Belfast class cruisers & J class destroyers and a mere handful of T class subs. Most of the K class destroyers arrived before the year as out.

It was 1940 before the KGV, Illustrious, Dido, Fiji classes began to complete.
But they were ready for 1941 onwards - the bulk of the war.

Not so much a Golden Money Tree - but spending the money spent on hashing up old stuff rusting away on the stocks with parts rusting in warehouses for new construction that is actually relevant.
 
Let us cut through the politics of this thread to what the RN is and always has been about.
From 1945 to the present day only one navy has constituted a clear threat to the United Kingdom by virtue of being.
The Russian Navy has to be the focus of Britain's seapower.
Once you accept this, the sort of ships and aircraft you need become very different from "East of Suez" fantasies.
Let me add that this is not an anti-Soviet or Russian rant. It merely recognises that no other navy has the same scope to threaten Britain, and does not see this threat as inevitable.
The US and French Navies are of course also fleets in being but as both countries (perhaps reluctantly) have been our allies for over a century they do not constitute enemies.

True, and in 1948 the Soviet threat was their sub fleet, which needed frigates to defend against.
I'm not so sure the ships required for fighting the Soviet Navy are so different from East of Suez, particularly in the context of the late 1940s and 1950s. One of the lessons of WW2 is that surface ships alone are inadequate against massed submarines, which demands some sort of ASW carrier to extend coverage. This is especially important when only so many escorts can be provided - one thing that becomes clear in the 1970s is that ASW carriers cut down pretty significantly on the number of escorts needed to cover a specific area, particularly expensive AAW escorts.

And in this technological context before helicopters the ASW carriers need to be pretty big to carry sufficient numbers of dedicated ASW aircraft. Then you consider surface raiders - i.e. the Sverdlov threat - and the need to drive off snoopers and maritime strike aircraft (and all this before Harrier and Sea Eagle), and suddenly you're looking at carriers not much smaller than the fleet carriers the RN kept trying to buy. The American SCB 100 series gives a pretty good idea of the size we're talking here.

From there it's not much of a leap to have the ability to equip these big ASW carriers as strike carriers as the need arises.

As well, we also have to consider NATO requirements. While ASW escorts were of course desired by NATO planners so too were strike carriers, particularly in the context of Norway. Without bases being allowed on Norwegian soil, the only way to prevent Norway from falling to a Soviet invasion is by sea, likely in the face of significant aerial opposition. This ties back into the submarine threat. The Brits know from two world wars that a friendly Norway is vital in the face of the submarine threat.

Which means it behooves the Brits to have the amphibious capacity and carrier strike ability to at least contribute to reinforcement of Norway.

So far in this thread, I've been trying to keep things as close to the OTL politics and strategic thinking as possible, but with full hindsight, I'd say that the way to go was to, yes, abandon as many foreign commitments as possible, accept that you can't afford the big policing role, and laser-focus on WW3 operations close to home. That means:

- Six carriers to start with rather than 12 as was the case from 1947-1954 - half those carriers were to be for East of Suez. This means no rebuilds of the armored carriers, and overall a far more rational carrier force - ideally I'd get all three Audacious-class, with Irresistible built to Ark Royal standards by the mid-50s, and three Centaurs, Hermes being cancelled somewhere down the line. The Audacious' are for strike duties and the Centaurs for ASW (Sea Hawks + Gannets).
- Faster rundown of the cruiser force, which is increasingly unnecessary without all those overseas commitments.
- No Tribals, more Blackwoods.
- 1957 cut to four carriers proceeds as planned, Audaciouses prioritized for retention, priority given to escort cruiser to replace Centaurs as ASW carriers.
- Long-term outlook likely two big strike carriers for Norwegian operations in wartime and out-of-area in peacetime, three Invincible-style ASW carriers for, well, Atlantic ASW ops, and two Ocean-style commando carriers to get the Centaurs out of the job.
 
The problem for Britain is that it cannot afford a Midway still less a Forrestal. Once the US has a fleet of Nimitz class ships planned it is hard to see what a pair of UK carriers bring.
Ark with her Phantoms and Bucs was all we could afford (CVA01 would not have added much). The 1966 decisions focussed on ships which were unique to the Royal Navy. Invincible with her force of Seakings, later Merlins to patrol the route to Norway. Broadsword became the first frigate/destroyer class to have a point defence system (Seawolf) that allowed it to stand a chance of surviving initial Soviet missile attacks and killing their subs.
Unless we could find someone else to provide the political and military role of the British Army in West Germany this RN NATO force was the best use of our money.
 
The problem for Britain is that it cannot afford a Midway still less a Forrestal. Once the US has a fleet of Nimitz class ships planned it is hard to see what a pair of UK carriers bring.
They're a force that can do less rigorous carrier jobs to free up more American carriers to go after strategic targets. Remember: the USN calculated it needed 22 carriers to do all its expected wartime taskings. Two British strike carriers doing some of the less intensive work would be very welcome.

Again, Norway. The Marines were expected to be deployed there to support the Norwegians. Two Royal Marine brigades with carrier support, with the Navy's carriers expected to be busy elsewhere, is a valid use case within the broader NATO strategy.
 
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Desirable certainly but not essential as the ASW ships would have been.
 
Yeah.......Nah.

If the 20th century showed one thing unambiguously waa that big carriers are better than small ones.

In the 70s the Ark was the RN contribution to NATO striking fleet. Note that its called striking not ASW fleet, having to re-designate the RNs strike group 2 to ASW group 2 was not an upgrade.
 
I don't think the RN or USN took their lead from the Soviets.

Good point about nuclear, but I think that notion faded pretty fast. The vast up front cost became apparent very early, but the USN hadn't adjusted its thinking to justify the cost to the pollies. I recall something about the destroyer reactor being too tall as well.
I didn't mean that. What I was trying to say, is that both RN and Soviet Navy were putting much efforts into developing new conventional propulsion systems, while USN basically didn't bother; American admirals pretty seriously assumed that every large surface warship (i.e. destroyer leader and larger) in near future would be nuclear-powered, and weren't as interested in gas turbines.
 
Unfortunately, no, it would have been only a little less drastic. They would still be short enough steam on their worn-out, obsolescent boilers for steam catapults to necessitate a machinery replacement to be viable long-term, and their elevators and flight decks would still need reconstruction to operate large jet aircraft. And then we get into their electrical systems, which need a comprehensive overhaul to operate modern 50s electronics.
And there were also a matter of nuclear weapon protection. The results of Bikini tests rather obviously demonstrated, that warships architecture must be massively re-considered to ensure both nuclear blast resistance and protection from contamination. So it would require a rather major refit of any wartime carrier anyway.
 

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