DD(X) DDG-1000 Zumwalt-class destroyers

[TomS]

Italian-designed 3-inch mounts with compatible ammo are used on coast guard cutþers and were used on OHP's. Not exactly "unique".

The OHPs are long gone from the USN, and their spares went to the USCG to keep their 76mm guns running. The USCG itself is down to just twelve 76mm guns (on the Famous class WMECs) and all new construction ships are getting 57mm instead. The USN has concentrated its development of guided rounds on 57mm as well, and has no interest in readopting 76mm in any form.

 

[Dilandu]

The OHPs are long gone from the USN, and their spares went to the USCG to keep their 76mm guns running. The USCG itself is down to just twelve 76mm guns (on the Famous class WMECs) and all new construction ships are getting 57mm instead. The USN has concentrated its development of guided rounds on 57mm as well, and has no interest in readopting 76mm in any form.

A pity - it seems to be the most useful size from modern point of view.

 

[TomS]

A pity - it seems to be the most useful size from modern point of view.

57mm and 76mm seem very comparable in effectiveness. It's a very marginal difference, really.

 

[Josh_TN]

I think a portion of WMEC guns physically came from retired Perry on top of the parts stream for the guns. They are old enough that I assume they are leaving service soon.

 

[TomS]

I think a portion of WMEC guns physically came from retired Perry on top of the parts stream for the guns.

That's actually correct. I'd forgotten that.

They are old enough that I assume they are leaving service soon.

There's a SLEP underway on the Famous class, and they will have to serve into the late 2030s at least. But they are losing the 76mm gun in the process, to be replaced with a 25mm Mk 38. That is probably sufficient considering their typical duties.

The OPCs are coming in very slowly, after Eastern's disaster(s), but there are a bunch of Reliances that need to be replaced first.

 

[sferrin]

I can't see 57mm going in forward. The DDG-1000 program rejected it once before and I doubt they will rethink.

Assuming HPV progresses, a Mk 45 Mod 4 with automated ammunition handling as in the Type 26 would be the most logical. There's a ton of room where the aft AGS was. But they would probably have to rework the gunhouse and hide the barrel just like the old AGS, or you would have an RCS problem. For just three ships, again it's probably is easier to just leave a flat spot there. Or maybe some Next-Gen VLS?

Any reason they couldn't just stuff a bank of 64 Mk41 Strike Length?

 

[Josh_TN]

So definitely twilight for 76mm, probably only extended this long because the OHP parts stream. Kinda reminds me of the B-52 reengining - up til now, too many off the shelf parts to justify.

 

[Josh_TN]

Any reason they couldn't just stuff a bank of 64 Mk41 Strike Length?

Not sure if there’s space. I think 32 might be on the table though. But i do wonder why they didn’t just replace both guns stations with CPS. There are already plenty of mk57 for self defense. Maybe they are considering mk41s with a SPY-6 upgrade if money is available.

 

[TomS]

Any reason they couldn't just stuff a bank of 64 Mk41 Strike Length?

Probably not, but Next Gen has the advantage of future proofing (again, after trying it with Mk 57 as well).

 

[sferrin]

Probably not, but Next Gen has the advantage of future proofing (again, after trying it with Mk 57 as well).

Not the most efficient use of space but I can see why they wouldn't want a cold-launched missile falling on the deck.

 

[TomS]

Not the most efficient use of space but I can see why they wouldn't want a cold-launched missile falling on the deck.


View attachment 756773

Sorry, got my terms crossed. I was thinking more of the Growth VLS Lockheed is pitching. Ultimately, whatever they select for DDG(X).

 

[sferrin]

Sorry, got my terms crossed. I was thinking more of the Growth VLS Lockheed is pitching. Ultimately, whatever they select for DDG(X).

Are any details available on that?

 

[TomS]

Are any details available on that?

Not much. Some articles say 34-inch diameter, which would presumably be sized for CPS.

 

[sferrin]

Not much. Some articles say 34-inch diameter, which would presumably be sized for CPS.

Hmmmm. I wonder if they'd be round or square. Or like those on the Type 055. (They can have either have four vents at the corners of the cell or cold launch as I recall.)

 

[TomS]

Hmmmm. I wonder if they'd be round or square. Or like those on the Type 055. (They can have either have four vents at the corners of the cell or cold launch as I recall.)

The most info we have is here, I think.

Lockheed Martin Provides Updates on Naval PAC-3 MSE and G-VLS - Naval News

The U.S. Navy continues in their effort to integrate and field PAC-3 MSE on U.S. Navy destroyers. The capability would bring...

www.navalnews.com

 

[TomS]

Not sure if there’s space. I think 32 might be on the table though. But i do wonder why they didn’t just replace both guns stations with CPS. There are already plenty of mk57 for self defense. Maybe they are considering mk41s with a SPY-6 upgrade if money is available.

I suspect it comes down to how few CPS the Navy is going to get. No point in putting in 24 cells if the total USN inventory is only a dozen operational missiles.

 

[johnpjones1775]

A bit late to the 76mm talk, but it’s not coming back any time soon.

The navy has a set number of C school houses for GMs. They discontinued the 76 in favor of the 57, and it would take enough funding to start a whole new C school for the 76 to return to the US fleet.

 

[Scott Kenny]

A bit late to the 76mm talk, but it’s not coming back any time soon.

The navy has a set number of C school houses for GMs. They discontinued the 76 in favor of the 57, and it would take enough funding to start a whole new C school for the 76 to return to the US fleet.

If the Coasties are still using the 76mm, just send the Navy GMs to the Coastie school.

 

[johnpjones1775]

If the Coasties are still using the 76mm, just send the Navy GMs to the Coastie school.

And those are probably going to be retired within a decade or so.

 

[Scott Kenny]

And those are probably going to be retired within a decade or so.

Still gives a school option for the next ~8 years or so.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Still gives a school option for the next ~8 years or so.

So you think the navy should adopt 60+ year old guns so sailors can be trained on them for 8 years?
What then, retire the guns and the ships they’re on, or give them the OHP treatment, but instead of missile launcher, gun being replaced by a sub par option?

 

[Scott Kenny]

So you think the navy should adopt 60+ year old guns so sailors can be trained on them for 8 years?
What then, retire the guns and the ships they’re on, or give them the OHP treatment, but instead of missile launcher, gun being replaced by a sub par option?

No, it means that when the USCG retires their 76mm guns, the USN takes over the class and all training equipment and updates whatever is needed for the Sovraponte guns.

There's no need to buy a whole new school because one already exists.

 

[Forest Green]

Not the most efficient use of space but I can see why they wouldn't want a cold-launched missile falling on the deck.


View attachment 756773

So does 1 MLS replace 1 gun on the Zumwalts?

 

[bobbymike]

Navy Says It Won’t Repeat Cruiser Upgrade Blunder With Destroyer Modernization 2.0 Effort

Three more destroyers will return to the water this year as part of a program that will see them gain electronic warfare, radar and combat systems upgrades.

www.twz.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

So does 1 MLS replace 1 gun on the Zumwalts?

Looks like it. That particular sketch looks like 6x Global Strike cells, 4x Future Payload cells, and 32x existing/Mk41 sized cells.

Replacing both guns with 1 set of 64x Mk41 sized cells and 1 set of 12x Global Strike would be a nasty setup, since there's still the 80x or more PVLS cells. (Not sure if there's physically space to add more PVLS around the edge of the helipad)

 

[johnpjones1775]

Naval guns from 20mm-127mm have been involved in intercepting drones.

It’s my personal belief that lasers are still decades away from being viable weapons. This means guns will be the most cost efficient way to hard kill drones for the foreseeable future.

I truly hope the navy puts a 5” and 2 mk110s F/A on the DDGX at a bare minimum.

https://news.usni.org/2025/01/30/crew-of-uss-stockdale-shot-down-houthi-drones-with-5-inch-gun-says-admiral?fbclid=IwY2xjawIJEihleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHXuS_zMQecQy5kgwfVefDenMF9-uf8M4sGv-TeJYzQd5Udee2wi0wzNeOQ_aem_76QWyG_vVylGMeU0IEnClg

 

[Josh_TN]

Oh think we can all agree that no one needs just five inches…

 

[joshjosh]

Oh think we can all agree that no one needs just five inches…

5 inches is more than enough. It's actually too much, more than needed for most jobs. Besides, it's more about the skill of the operator and the related systems.

 

[johnpjones1775]

5 inches is more than enough. It's actually too much, more than needed for most jobs. Besides, it's more about the skill of the operator and the related systems.

Until there’s a large swarm…16rpm is not nearly enough.

I have a friend who will be getting more specifics about engagement(those that he can) but when I expressed my expectations it take 3 rounds or less, he laughed at me. So yeah, 5” is not enough if there’s more than just a few drones.

Keep in mind this article indicates it was a single drone, already dozens if not a hundred+ miles from shore, so it’s not just an off the shelf quadcopter. It was likely moving at 100+mph, and was detected in 5” range so roughly 15 miles, possibly much less.
At 16rpm, and requiring several shots to down a single drone, it likely wouldn’t take a massive swarm to overwhelm what 5” can handle.

Let’s look at Ukraine as an example where several dozens of drones are use on each side in individual attacks. That’s the future we need to be preparing for. 24+ drones as well as a variety of missiles of differing capabilities all at once.

 

[johnpjones1775]

A little bit more info.
Context about adm. cooper’s comment about being surprised, it was the angle of engagement that surprised him.

Between that and the fact it was detected rather late, it would be safe to assume the drone was flying low to the surface where background clutter from waves, ships, boats, etc. could have been making identification more difficult.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I truly hope the navy puts a 5” and 2 mk110s F/A on the DDGX at a bare minimum.

Still think that the OTO 76mm beats the crap out of the Mk110.

 

[MihoshiK]

I struggle to see how this conversation is still linked to the Zumwalts, it's more a general naval calibers discussion now.

If the Navy had wanted to replace one of the AGS with a smaller caliber, this would have been the moment. They didn't. It's highly unlikely that they will.

Now, can we put the 57 vs 76 vs 127 vs 155 discussion somewhere else and focus a bit?

 

[Forest Green]

5 inches is more than enough.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Still think that the OTO 76mm beats the crap out of the Mk110.

Not really.
Range is comparable, but the mk110 has twice the RoF, and overall throw weight if the mk110 is much higher.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I struggle to see how this conversation is still linked to the Zumwalts, it's more a general naval calibers discussion now.

If the Navy had wanted to replace one of the AGS with a smaller caliber, this would have been the moment. They didn't. It's highly unlikely that they will.

Now, can we put the 57 vs 76 vs 127 vs 155 discussion somewhere else and focus a bit?

I will apologize for the most recent post as I misread the title of the thread and thought it was about both zumwalt and DDGX.