DD(X) DDG-1000 Zumwalt-class destroyers

[sferrin]

"The U.S. Navy's Titanium “Tin Can”

How the sea service transformed destroyers, its most common warship and once among the cheapest, into Frankenships"


https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2019/01/the-u-s-navys-titanium-tin-can/

Pogo. . . :

 

[shivering]

Yeah, but.......the part of the article dealing with procurement issues
rang pretty true.......at least in my limited experience.

 

[Moose]

Yeah, but.......the part of the article dealing with procurement issues
rang pretty true.......at least in my limited experience.

POGO writers frequently have good points and include solid information, they also do not hide their lights under bushels so the good content in their articles can often feel like it's reinforcing a bias rather than informing a position. Th is program certainly has plenty of "this is what not to do" moments and absolutely should be examined in order to inform and teach so that the process can be improved, but calling them "...not tin cans so much as over-larded, cruiser-sized, titanium canisters" is both very inaccurate and generally neither useful nor helpful when evaluating either the ships or the process. The author also seems to misinterpret, deliberately or not, quotes and events from the program's troubled past in order to portray the present condition of the program as an inevitable outcome. That's problematic for any number of reasons, and it's hard to overlook when trying to evaluate the rest of the piece.

 

[fightingirish]

The USS Michael Monsoor (DDG 1001) will be commissioned on the 25th of January,2019.

I Will Defend: Michael Monsoor’s story
Named for a Medal of Honor recipient and Navy SEAL, USS Michael Monsoor (DDG 1001) will be commissioned Jan. 25. Ahead of the ceremony, Master-At-Arms 2nd Class (SEAL) Michael Monsoor’s teammates share his story of his courageous and selfless actions. (U.S. Navy video by Austin Rooney/Released)

A powerful video;:
https://youtu.be/256ymQN8F70

https://youtu.be/256ymQN8F70

Pay attention to "Jocko" at end of the video. B)

 

[sferrin]

Jocko kicks ass.

 

[Foo Fighter]

An extremely powerful piece. We must make sure that everyone who defends and represents their nation in this manner get the very best support and equipment possible. Something that has not been the case and is not the case now sadly.

 

[fredymac]

Zumwalt initial weapons load includes SM-6 IA, SM-2, Maritime Tomahawk, and ESSM Block II. Future plans include HEL’s. No mention of railguns to replace the AGS.

Defense Maven Article

 

[Capthale]

The new sm will have an anti ship software and hopefully the new anti ship missiles will come on line

 

[Capthale]

They changed there mission back to blue water and more of a anti ship toke but still no dedicated anti ship missile until the lrasm come out

 

[Capthale]

There long range is there anti air short range is there with 30mm close essm there strike capabilities are there tomahawks but the intermediate range. is lacking with no close in and no real self defense

 

[Capthale]

Pretty much big for nothing as they say all that talent and all show no go

 

[sferrin]

Wut?

 

[TomS]

The new sm will have an anti ship software and hopefully the new anti ship missiles will come on line

Block V Maritime Strike Tomahawk looks like a done deal as an interim capability.

 

[sferrin]

I'd feel a lot better if the USN had the foresight to pursue VL-LRASM. The only legitimate excuse for not doing so IMO would be if they've got something better close to flight test.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Alas, logic is still a scarce commodity so far as the Armed Services/DOD is concerned...

 

[Deino]

PLAN Type 055 DDG vs. USN Zumwalt-class destroyer ... an amazing model comparison

(images via LKJ86/PDF)

 

[sferrin]

PLAN Type 055 DDG vs. USN Zumwalt-class destroyer ... an amazing model comparison

(images via LKJ86/PDF)

Really drives home how much the Type 055 outclasses the Ticonderogas. And those cells are monstrous compared to the Mk41s.

 

[Capthale]

Looks good

 

[bobbymike]

Navy Stealthy Zumwalt Destroyer May Fire Conventional Prompt Strike Missile

The Navy’s newest destroyer may fire a not-yet-to-be fielded Conventional Prompt Strike conventionally-armed missile

defensemaven.io

 

[Grey Havoc]

Hmmm....

 

[Moose]

I imagine the head of the program would say something like that, the question is whether the senior leadership and appropriators will. Rear Admiral Black is on the show floor, but hasn't said much about DDG-1000.

 

[Grey Havoc]

From DDG-1000 to CA-154?

So, we have a rump, 3-ship class of land attack destroyer, the ZUMWALT Class, that was designed about a bespoke 6.1-in (nee 155mm) naval g...

cdrsalamander.blogspot.com

 

[bring_it_on]

A VPM insert would appear to be quite an extensive surgery and will probably require a good part of half a decade to fund, develop, integrate and test assuming that it can accommodate the missile (and that many). Why not consider something more optimized like an OpsFire derivative? I'd much rather they take less risk with ship modifications and more with optimizing missile systems currently being worked upon elsewhere. Would seem like a faster way to get this capability. Regardless, at least one vessel in the class needs to deploy in the next couple of years. Until that happens, I seriously doubt the Congress would be willing to invest even 1 cent into a yet another modification to its role and capability no matter how much sense it may make.

 

[bobbymike]

A VPM insert would appear to be quite an extensive surgery and will probably require a good part of half a decade to fund, develop, integrate and test assuming that it can accommodate the missile (and that many). Why not consider something more optimized like an OpsFire derivative? I'd much rather they take less risk with ship modifications and more with optimizing missile systems currently being worked upon elsewhere. Would seem like a faster way to get this capability. Regardless, at least one vessel in the class needs to deploy in the next couple of years. Until that happens, I seriously doubt the Congress would be willing to invest even 1 cent into a yet another modification to its role and capability no matter how much sense it may make.

Turn a retired LHA into an arsenal ship less risk than using Zumwalt IMHO

 

[bring_it_on]

A VPM insert would appear to be quite an extensive surgery and will probably require a good part of half a decade to fund, develop, integrate and test assuming that it can accommodate the missile (and that many). Why not consider something more optimized like an OpsFire derivative? I'd much rather they take less risk with ship modifications and more with optimizing missile systems currently being worked upon elsewhere. Would seem like a faster way to get this capability. Regardless, at least one vessel in the class needs to deploy in the next couple of years. Until that happens, I seriously doubt the Congress would be willing to invest even 1 cent into a yet another modification to its role and capability no matter how much sense it may make.

Turn a retired LHA into an arsenal ship less risk than using Zumwalt IMHO

I think they probably also want to make it more useful. The guns don't appear to be going anywhere and these are very expensive ships. With the change of role, the Navy probably wants to find some sort of mission for them. Proceedings has a really good podcast with the CO of DDG-1000. Second half is focused on the vessel, the program, how it handles, and what lies ahead. Good stuff.

 

[Moose]

For a former DDG skipper, Sally's plan here seems a bit off. Replacing AGS with new VLS is credible enough, but the details are wrong. Surface launch cells have more than a few differences to missile tubes on subs, the extra time, money and effort re-engineering the Virginia class' tube probably makes the overall cost similar to that of scaling up an existing surface VLS or even a fresh start designed for LRHW-size weapons. Then again, he's talking about TLAM-sized missiles so why not just use Mk 41 cells, or Mk 57, which the ship already uses, in a dense pack?

Also, the Virginia Payload Tube (VPT) is the Trident-diameter tube in the bows of the 774s since Block III. VPM is the insert behind the sail on a Virginia Block V that carrys 4 additional VPTs. He's talking VPTs, not VPMs.

 

[Moose]

A VPM insert would appear to be quite an extensive surgery and will probably require a good part of half a decade to fund, develop, integrate and test assuming that it can accommodate the missile (and that many). Why not consider something more optimized like an OpsFire derivative? I'd much rather they take less risk with ship modifications and more with optimizing missile systems currently being worked upon elsewhere. Would seem like a faster way to get this capability. Regardless, at least one vessel in the class needs to deploy in the next couple of years. Until that happens, I seriously doubt the Congress would be willing to invest even 1 cent into a yet another modification to its role and capability no matter how much sense it may make.

Turn a retired LHA into an arsenal ship less risk than using Zumwalt IMHO

The retired LHAs are steam-powered and manpower-intensive, running costs would be...problematic for an arsenal ship. If your notion just just "big, slow, small crew with lots of cells," we could build a T-AO CHAMP, or ESD with a shipload of VLS .

 

[Moose]

Zumwalt skipper Capt. Andrew Carlson tells DefenseNews that the DDG-1000 has experienced Sea State 6 in a storm off the coast of Alaska and, while more "stiff" than traditional hulls, is quite stable and comfortable.

"We took advantage of a storm up near Alaska that presented us with Sea State Six conditions,” said Carlson, referring to sea’s waves between 13 and 20 feet high. “All told I’d rather be on that ship than any other ship I’ve been on.”

“You definitely have to get used to the roll, which is very short compared to other ships,” Carlson said. “For those of us who have been on cruisers, especially up top, you kind of lean over 15 degrees and you wonder if you are going to come back. We didn’t experience any of that. As long as you get used to the finer oscillation, it really handles very well."

This will not, of course, convince the Salamanders of the world that she's not going to capsize the first time Neptune throws something wild her way. But it's a good reminder that the people who designed and built her weren't the drooling idiots they are sometimes made out to be.

 

[bobbymike]

Nearly 4 years after commissioning, the US Navy is about to get a fully working stealth destroyer

The combat system for the Navy's first stealth destroyer is expected to be completed within days, four years after the ship was commissioned.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Haven't the Navy claimed that before?

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

What is the future for AGS ?

 

[sferrin]

What is the future for AGS ?

"The DDG-1000 is a multi-mission destroyer with an originally intended emphasis on naval
surface fire support (NSFS) and operations in littoral (i.e., near-shore) waters. Consistent with
that mission orientation, the ship was designed with two new-design 155mm guns called
Advanced Gun Systems (AGSs). The AGSs were to fire a new 155mm, gun-launched, rocket
assisted guided projectile called the Long-Range Land-Attack Projectile (LRLAP, pronounced
LUR-lap). In November 2016, however, it was reported that the Navy had decided to stop
procuring LRLAP projectiles because the projected unit cost of each projectile had risen to at
least $800,000.9 The Navy to date has not announced a replacement munition for the AGSs.10
In the meantime, it was reported in December 2017 that, due to shifts in the international security
environment and resulting shifts in Navy mission needs, the mission orientation of the DDG-
1000s will be shifted from an emphasis on NSFS to an emphasis on surface strike, meaning the
use of missiles to attack surface ships and perhaps also land targets.11 Under this new plan, the
mix of missiles carried in the 80 vertical launch system (VLS) tubes of each DDG-1000 may now
feature a stronger emphasis on anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles missiles. The two AGSs
on each DDG-1000 will, for the time being at least, remain for the most part dormant, pending a
final decision on whether to procure a replacement munition for the AGSs (which would require
modifying the AGSs and their below-deck munition-handling equipment, since both were
designed specifically for LRLAP), or instead pursue another option, such as removing the AGSs
and their below-deck equipment and replacing them with additional VLS tubes. "

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

thanks,

or instead pursue another option, such as removing the AGSs and their below-deck equipment and replacing them with additional VLS tubes. "

imho it will be wrong way
LM offering is Still Best System Solutuion

 

[stealthflanker]

and the longest in terms of range too.

The only other solution would be scaling up the NAMMO's Ramjet shell if range+compatibility with every single kind of 155mm piece is desired.

 

[Cordy]

The three Zumwalt's just one big black hole, GAO back in Dec 2018 reported R&D plus build $23.5 billion, ~$8 billion per ship. The unique AGS guns have no ammo, the DOT&E 2019 reported the new SPY-3 radar cannot control the AAM's, SM-2 & ESSM, just left with their 80 Mk57 VLS cells for Tomahawks, think best use of Zumwalt's as SINKEX targets.

 

[sferrin]

The three Zumwalt's just one big black hole, GAO back in Dec 2018 reported R&D plus build $23.5 billion, ~$8 billion per ship. The unique AGS guns have no ammo, the DOT&E 2019 reported the new SPY-3 radar cannot control the AAM's, SM-2 & ESSM, just left with their 80 Mk57 VLS cells for Tomahawks, think best use of Zumwalt's as SINKEX targets.

Actually the best thing they could do is bring them back into drydock and rework them into the first units of the Tico replacement.

 

[Cordy]

The three Zumwalt's just one big black hole, GAO back in Dec 2018 reported R&D plus build $23.5 billion, ~$8 billion per ship. The unique AGS guns have no ammo, the DOT&E 2019 reported the new SPY-3 radar cannot control the AAM's, SM-2 & ESSM, just left with their 80 Mk57 VLS cells for Tomahawks, think best use of Zumwalt's as SINKEX targets.

Actually the best thing they could do is bring them back into drydock and rework them into the first units of the Tico replacement.

How many $billions would it cost to rip out the AGS guns and their massive magazines plus the SPY-3 radar and its TSCE CMS and re-design and re-engineer ship to replace with more VLS cells, Aegis CMS and SPY-6 radar - question is whether the tumblehome hull Zumwalt could take weight of the heavier SPY-6 in its deck house? You would just be pouring more money into Zumwalt's black hole.

 

[sferrin]

The three Zumwalt's just one big black hole, GAO back in Dec 2018 reported R&D plus build $23.5 billion, ~$8 billion per ship. The unique AGS guns have no ammo, the DOT&E 2019 reported the new SPY-3 radar cannot control the AAM's, SM-2 & ESSM, just left with their 80 Mk57 VLS cells for Tomahawks, think best use of Zumwalt's as SINKEX targets.

Actually the best thing they could do is bring them back into drydock and rework them into the first units of the Tico replacement.

How many $billions would it cost to rip out the AGS guns and their massive magazines plus the SPY-3 radar and its TSCE CMS and re-design and re-engineer ship to replace with more VLS cells, Aegis CMS and SPY-6 radar - question is whether the tumblehome hull Zumwalt could take weight of the heavier SPY-6 in its deck house? You would just be pouring more money into Zumwalt's black hole.

It was designed from the beginning to form the basis of the cruiser. It would be cheaper than starting with a clean sheet (that would likely be inferior anyway).

 

[Cordy]

The three Zumwalt's just one big black hole, GAO back in Dec 2018 reported R&D plus build $23.5 billion, ~$8 billion per ship. The unique AGS guns have no ammo, the DOT&E 2019 reported the new SPY-3 radar cannot control the AAM's, SM-2 & ESSM, just left with their 80 Mk57 VLS cells for Tomahawks, think best use of Zumwalt's as SINKEX targets.

Actually the best thing they could do is bring them back into drydock and rework them into the first units of the Tico replacement.

How many $billions would it cost to rip out the AGS guns and their massive magazines plus the SPY-3 radar and its TSCE CMS and re-design and re-engineer ship to replace with more VLS cells, Aegis CMS and SPY-6 radar - question is whether the tumblehome hull Zumwalt could take weight of the heavier SPY-6 in its deck house? You would just be pouring more money into Zumwalt's black hole.

It was designed from the beginning to form the basis of the cruiser. It would be cheaper than starting with a clean sheet (that would likely be inferior anyway).

Do agree Zumwalt designed as basis of future cruiser but when USN started seriously pushing in 2018 for the new LSC, Large Surface Combatant, to replace Ticos and Burkes, CNO Adm Richardson called for the LSC contract award in 2023, Richardson now ret'd and LSC contract now delayed to 2028. The LSC ship is to have a 'future proof' spec with a large surplus of electrical power for the hypothetical/possible DEW's, lasers and rail guns, and to be based on parent design HM&E to speed up IOC, as with FFG(X) which USN considered a great success, USN unable to find suitable parent HM&E of appropriate size and now in R&D for new ship.

You would have thought Zumwalt was tailor made to fit LSC spec with its all electrical integrated power system and hull in water, but its been such a disaster that USN never considered Zumwalt as basis for the LSC which I think says it all, so as said use the Zumwalt's for SINKEX and stop throwing good money after bad into its $24 billion black hole.

 

[fredymac]

The Navy’s next large surface combatant will probably look more like the futuristic Zumwalt class of guided-missile destroyers than fleet’s current workhorse class of Arleigh Burke destroyers, the program executive officer said.

https://news.usni.org/2019/06/19/navy-next-large-surface-combatant-will-look-a-lot-like-zumwalt

The other aspect of the DDG 1000 shape is the stealth advantage it gives. The main problem for the Zumwalt was cost. Fixing the way the Navy manages ship construction so it doesn't balloon up the cost will probably require cultural changes and that is never easy.

DDG 1000 was optimized for land attack and clearly that is not the mission anymore so these 3 ships will probably wind up being like the Seawolf class (highly specialized). I would favor making use of the 80MW of electrical power for railguns and DEWs while also removing the AGS and looking at whether Prompt Global Strike missiles could fit.