Dassault Mirage 2000

[hesham]

,and
the Mirage-2000 was demonstrated incredible two maneuverings,one of them
cleared by made a circles in radius less than 100 meters,and on altitude less
than 30 meters,can you imagine ?.

I can perfectly well imagine a delta wing fighter having a better instantaneous turn rate than an f16a, enough for one very tight circle.

You misunderstand me Totoro,

in dogfight,Mirage won easy,but in individual demonstration for it after
that show,it made impossible two maneuverings,and I explain one of them,
and may the radius was less than 80 meters,not 100 !,I saw it in our TV by
that time ?.

The last thing in this point is; the speed of that maneuvering was less
than 100 km/h,I swear by my God,I can't believe my eyes to these days,
looks like you saw an aircraft with piston engine do the show ?!.

 

[Forest Green]

Mirage 2000 has better ITR, F-16 has better STR. The winner of a dogfight, as usual, would depend more on the pilot than the plane.

 

[hesham]

Mirage 2000 has better ITR, F-16 has better STR. The winner of a dogfight, as usual, would depend more on the pilot than the plane.

Yes,but also depended on capability of the aircraft with it,and F-16 put
in key position,but the Mirage-2000 easily evaded from the attacker.

 

[Forest Green]

Yes,but also depended on capability of the aircraft with it,and F-16 put
in key position,but the Mirage-2000 easily evaded from the attacker.

The F-16 pilot likely made a mistake then.

 

[TomcatViP]

M2K C phasing out (-5 and D models will remain in service for quite some time):

France Bids Its Classic Mirage 2000C Fighter Jet Adieu

Once one of Europe’s most potent air defense fighters, the Mirage 2000C has completed its last operational mission with the French Air Force.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Archibald]

It was high time... the 35 years old RDI was utterly obsolete, TBH. Although still goood enough to patrol most of the skies.

In passing, this mean the end of the -530 family of missiles (Matra is long gone, and so is Jean Luc Lagardère) from french service ? Only MICA remains, and Meteor. No idea if Magic 2 is still hanging around ?

After the Atar in 2014 (Mirage F1) and 2016 (S.E) its another page of history going away.

 

[eagle]

In passing, this mean the end of the -530 family of missiles (Matra is long gone, and so is Jean Luc Lagardère) from french service ? Only MICA remains, and Meteor. No idea if Magic 2 is still hanging around ?

The 530D Missile was retired in 2012 already. That left the M2000C armed with only 2 Magic 2 missiles plus the gun since then. (The article also mentions this)
No idea if the Magic 2 will be kept. The upgraded M2000D can use the MICA IR so there would be no real need for the old Magics.

 

[Forest Green]

The facts. At excess power of 0 FPS, STR for F-16A at same altitude and loadout is 14.5deg/s vs 12.5m/s for the Mirage 2000. The maximum ITR of the Mirage 2000 is 23.5deg/s under the same conditions vs 20deg/s for the F-16A. The answer for the F-16A is to climb while turning to make the Mirage bleed energy until it can't follow.

 

[Archibald]

The 530D Missile was retired in 2012 already. That left the M2000C armed with only 2 Magic 2 missiles plus the gun since then. (The article also mentions this)

Never realized this before. Sounds a bit silly to retire the 530D so long before its 2000 carrier. The 530F, yes, with the F1 in 2014: but the 530D was related to the 2000... probably a matter of 2000-5 & Rafales having MICA. But still, it amounted to castrating the 2000C RDIs...

 

[hesham]

Thank you Forest,and Please Moderator,

we can split this discussing to be in new topic,and the title;Mirage-2000
vs F-16 in Maneuvering.

In the dogfight,the Mirage-2000 made maximum turn to the right and
released itself,but F-16 couldn't catch it,and both of the two pilots were
seasoned in maneuvering.

 

[H_K]

Sounds a bit silly to retire the 530D so long before its 2000 carrier.

The Super 530D missiles probably couldn’t be extended any longer past 2012. So the Mirage 2000Cs soldiered on with only Magics… which was just fine for their role (fighter conversion training, close air support and air patrol).

 

[Forest Green]

Thank you Forest,and Please Moderator,

we can split this discussing to be in new topic,and the title;Mirage-2000
vs F-16 in Maneuvering.

In the dogfight,the Mirage-2000 made maximum turn to the right and
released itself,but F-16 couldn't catch it,and both of the two pilots were
seasoned in maneuvering.

F-16 pilot should have made use of God's g, i.e. gravity - over the top. But you illustrate a point about ITR. The F-16 can't follow a Mirage-2000's ITR but there are ways of countering it.

 

[hesham]

F-16 pilot should have made use of God's g, i.e. gravity - over the top. But you illustrate a point about ITR. The F-16 can't follow a Mirage-2000's ITR but there are ways of countering it.

Of course,but clearly the Mirage-2000 had some advantages over F-16A.

I have a surprise for Dassault,I make a Super Mirage for it,from my creation,
it consider a development of Type-2000,has good features than it.,and powered by a single engine,and I call it Mirage-7000.

 

[Forest Green]

Of course,but clearly the Mirage-2000 had some advantages over F-16A.

I have a surprise for Dassault,I make a Super Mirage for it,from my creation,
it consider a development of Type-2000,has good features than it.,and powered by a single engine,and I call it Mirage-7000.

Absolutely, the Mirage 2000's advantage is lower wing loading and hence more lift. The F-16's advantage is less drag and more thrust.

Ever heard of this?

Dassault Mirage 4000 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TomcatViP]

Don't forget that a pure delta has generally more trim drag when it comes to manoeuvring.

With the M2K, AMDBA did the best they could have done at the time but, increasingly as the 90's begun, high AoA being the name of the game, the M2K loose gradually its superb against other competitors (Mig29, F/A-18). Instead of doing a major upgrade, Dassault put all its money in the Rafale basket that did not bring much improvements in that field. Oh yeah, the Rafale can 9g turn at a higher speed. Ok.

I do think Teja iterations on that regard very interesting in that perspective (the semi sized rear horizontal ctrls or even the Levcons), telling us what could have been a Super M2K.

 

[hesham]

I have a surprise for Dassault,I make a Super Mirage for it,from my creation,
it consider a development of Type-2000,has good features than it.,and powered by a single engine,and I call it Mirage-7000.

We can't ignore that,the Delta wing shape has many advantages than normal wing.

 

[Archibald]

Don't forget that a pure delta has generally more trim drag when it comes to manoeuvring.

With the M2K, AMDBA did the best they could have done at the time but, increasingly as the 90's begun, high AoA being the name of the game, the M2K loose gradually its superb against other competitors (Mig29, F/A-18). Instead of doing a major upgrade, Dassault put all its money in the Rafale basket that did not bring much improvements in that field. Oh yeah, the Rafale can 9g turn at a higher speed. Ok.

I do think Teja iterations on that regard very interesting in that perspective (the semi sized rear horizontal ctrls or even the Levcons), telling us what could have been a Super M2K.

SNECMA really did not helped, a M53-P5 past 10 tons thrust would have been REALLY welcome, from the late 1980's onwards. The F-16 got 30% more thrust along its life (it also took a lot of weight, in passing - LWF did not really lived that long, by Block 30 it was mostly dead and buried).

 

[hesham]

I have a surprise for Dassault,I make a Super Mirage for it,from my creation,
it consider a development of Type-2000,has good features than it.,and powered by a single engine,and I call it Mirage-7000.

Just for fun,

I really draw it,and I take over fixing of the disadvantages of the concept,later I will submit it to Dassault.

 

[Deltafan]

SNECMA really did not helped, a M53-P5 past 10 tons thrust would have been REALLY welcome, from the late 1980's onwards.

An engine of more than 10 tons of thrust was being tested at SNECMA around 2006-2007, but the end of the Mirage 2000 production line led to the work being halted...

 

[hesham]

I have a surprise for Dassault,I make a Super Mirage for it,from my creation,
it consider a development of Type-2000,has good features than it.,and powered by a single engine,and I call it Mirage-7000.

Just for fun,

I really draw it,and I take over fixing of the disadvantages of the concept,later I will submit it to Dassault.

Small news,

I offer it to Dassault,waiting their answer,and as I did with MiG in Russian,
when I told them with the mighty of lightweight fighter and as I foretell
it will be sweep the future market,becuase economic problems,beside the
buyer wants low-cost fighter,and can accomplished multi missions and
fulfill many requirements.

 

[Deltafan]

FRANCE/INDONESIE/QATAR : Les Mirage qataris en route pour Jakarta

Après avoir été envisagés pour des missions d'entraînement en France, puis promis à la Bulgarie, les douze Mirage de l'armée de l'air du Qatar vont finalement atterrir en Indonésie. Jakarta cherche à

www.intelligenceonline.fr

Qatari Mirage en route to Jakarta

After being considered for training missions in France, then promised to Bulgaria, the twelve Mirages of the Qatar Air Force will finally land in Indonesia. Jakarta is looking to shed its dependence on Russian equipment.
(The rest of the text for subscribers)

To be confirmed

 

[TomcatViP]

Is that a gift or a buy?

 

[Deltafan]

A buy, I presume.

 

[Deltafan]

@stealthflanker

According to this French website :

Des Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000-5 bientôt sous cocarde de l'Indonésie ? - avionslegendaires.net

25 octobre 2022, par Arnaud. L'information traîne depuis quelques jours sur internet mais tout s'est accéléré depuis ce lundi 24 octobre 2022 au soir. L'état-major de la force

www.avionslegendaires.net

(...) this Monday evening, October 24, 2022. The Indonesian air force staff announces that it has bought the twelve Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000-5 multi-role fighters hitherto in service with its Qatari counterpart. The French-made fighter planes are, still according to Indonesia, accompanied by their armament and in particular Mica air-to-air missiles. However, the amount of the contract has not been disclosed.
(...)
According to the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara, the twelve Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000-5 ex-Qataris will considerably reduce Indonesia's dependence on Russia by allowing the immediate withdrawal from service of the five Sukhoi Su-27SKM Flankers while relaying the ten Sukhoi Su-30MK2 Flanker-C in secondary roles. They could even leave their ranks themselves very soon.
Indonesia intends to resell these two Russian models on the second-hand market.
(...)
Indeed, the staff of the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara indicates that the Qatari delta fighters were chosen because they make it possible to make the link between the current Indonesian planes and the future Rafales which will not be delivered for several years. They will therefore fulfill a role of transition aircraft!

But I couldn't find this info on the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara website

Similarly, on Twitter, Alman Helvas gives no information on this subject.

Can you confirm ?

 

[Archibald]

Never realized before that Qatar =/= UAE, and their Mirage 2000s are not 2000-9s. Who also seems ubiquitous those days. Who knows, maybe Qatar dumping to Indonesia will encourage the UAE to sell their Schroedinger 2000-9s - this time for real.

 

[Deltafan]

It seems that the Indonesian journalist Alman Helvas, recommended by stealthflanker, confirms...

There are two iterations of PSP this year issued by Indonesian Ministry of Finance. One of them worth US$4.4 billion with focus on major weapon systems acquisition programs for Air Force, i.e Rafale and Mirage 2000. No priority for Army and Navy yet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585531115179081728

View: https://twitter.com/AHelvas/status/1585531115179081728?cxt=HHwWgICgycKJ-IAsAAAA

 

[TomcatViP]

French M2K5 crashes on the 221103 while RTB. Pilot OK:

Haute-Saône. Crash d’un Mirage 2000-5 de la BA 116 : le pilote s’est éjecté

L’appareil, qui s’est abîmé dans une zone boisée à 5 km de la base aérienne de Luxeuil-les-Bains, était de retour de mission.

www.estrepublicain.fr

 

[Archibald]

Oh crap. We can't afford losing 2000-5s, starting from a paltry 37 conversions...

 

[F.L.]

It's really sad , because it's really wonderful to see the 2000-5s maneuvering during air combat training in the French skies. As I write this post, some of them are above the cloud layer.

 

[Archibald]

I checked, Dassault recent MCO contract for the 2000 fleet, to the end of its life, encompassed 28 Mirage 2000-5F.

"28 Mirage 2000-5F " - Google Search

Well now they must be 27. Unless they have some airframe in storage. But France own Davis Monthan -like boneyard in Chateaudun has been shut down in 2016.

 

[F.L.]

AdA has about 30 M2000C airframes that have just been withdrawn from service this year.

 

[Archibald]

Good point. Not sure they have a single penny to turn more 2000Cs (RDM, RDI, whatever the radar) into 2000-5F. That train has left the station a loooooooong time ago - 1997, I was in high school back then. All money has been pumped into MOAR Rafales since 2002 at least - or even before. In passing, the Rafale target remains at 180, except only 90-something are in the AdA inventory (not counting the Aéronavale ones, obviously).

 

[F.L.]

The AdA's M2000-5 has one particularity, its pilots are among the very few who are not omni-role. That is to say that their 150 to 200 flight hours per year are entirely reserved for air-to-air missions (sweep, interception, air superiority)
This gives them a certain superiority over multi-role pilots who have to divide their flying time to train in CAS, air-to-air, reconnaissance.... & more.

 

[Deltafan]

Indonesia seeks foreign funding to acquire French Rafale and Qatari Mirage 2000-5 fighter jets

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance has permitted the Indonesian Ministry of Defense to seek foreign loans of up to $3.9

frontierindia.com

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance has permitted the Indonesian Ministry of Defense to seek foreign loans of up to $3.9 billion to maintain the combat capabilities of the Indonesian Air Force. This authorisation applies to three proposals presented by the Ministry of Defense. According to a report that Jane’s Information Group published on November 15, 2022, two of these plans include the purchase of the second batch of 12 multirole Dassault Rafale fighters from France as well as a batch of 12 to 18 multirole Dassault Mirage 2000-5 fighters from the Qatari Air Force.

(...)

There are reports that a (...) $734.5 million of guarantees from the Indonesian Ministry of Finance will be used to seek loans to finance the purchase of 12 Mirage 2000-5 fighters (nine single-seat Mirage 2000-5EDA and three double-seat Mirage 2000-5DDA), which were removed from service with the Qatar Air Force in connection with their replacement with Rafale fighters purchased by Qatar. These Mirage 2000-5 fighters will be purchased by Indonesia.

These Qatari Mirage 2000-5 fighters, manufactured between 1997 and 1998 and in good technical condition, drew the interest of a number of potential buyers, one of which was the Indian Air Force. The Indian Air Force attempted to negotiate the purchase of these fighters at one point but could not agree for reasons relating to both finances and intra-Indian bureaucracy. Although it was reported in November 2021 that an agreement had been reached on the acquisition of these aircraft by the French private company Ares, which intended to provide them on a contract basis to provide combat training services to customers (the company already had a contract with the French Navy), the agreement ultimately failed to materialise.

It was rumoured in August and September of 2022 that Bulgaria was interested in buying or leasing these aircraft as “temporary replacements.” Due to the restrictions imposed on Russia, the continued flight of the Bulgarian MiG-29 is in serious doubt. Since the delivery of the bought F-16s would be delayed, Bulgaria is exploring aircraft leasing options. In discussions with France and Sweden.

On September 21, Bulgarian Defense Minister Dimitar Stoyanov said, “On Friday, we had talks with the French side; they are ready to provide an offer for Mirage 2000-5 aircraft; our limitation is that we do not want to buy the aircraft, but to lease them. That is, provision of certain flight hours on lease.”

 

[F.L.]

It seems that Bulgaria is also considering leasing the retired AdA Mirage 2000Cs.

 

[F.L.]

If true, nice pics !

 

[NikolasTz]

Both are fake

If true, nice pics !

 

[F.L.]

Both are fake

If true, nice pics !

What a shame !

 

[F.L.]

Peru is my favorite M2000 operator !

 

[F.L.]

This image is one of the very rare ones showing a Peruvian Mirage 2000P armed with Super 530s.
Only it seems to be false. Would anyone know more about this ?