Dassault Etendard Prototypes and Projects

[H_K]

Do you have info on range/radius/endurance of those projects?

The only info I have on the Mystere XXII range is from Ailes Magazine (Dec 1955 article). They quote a ferry range of 2,200km with external tanks. However this is 7 months before 1st flight so no idea if this turned out to be an accurate estimate.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k32009309/f9.jpeg

Per the specs I posted above, the Mystere XXII 01 prototype had 1,600L internal + 2x 350L external tanks, giving it a total ferry fuel capacity of 2,300L. The Mystere XXII Marine would have been able to do better obviously since it would have had 2,400L internal fuel.

 

[galgot]

Found these on bay auctions :
Etendard IVM prototype :


Etendard IV ?

Etendard VI :



Etendard II :

 

[dan_inbox]

Found these on bay auctions :
Etendard IVM prototype :
View attachment 652372

The third photo does not have the Aéronavale's anchor on its cockade. How could it be a "IV M" ?

 

[galgot]

Indeed. Thanks for the head up. Also the light grey fairing behind the canopy is longer. But i can't read clearly what's written on the nose and rudder :/

 

[uk 75]

NBMR-1 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Would make an interesting Alternate History thread to have the Fiat lose.

 

[Arjen]

The last image in #42 shows the Étendard II - powered by 2 Turboméca Gabizo engines

 

[galgot]

View: https://youtu.be/vgsHbtRpJao

Click on link , needs to be viewed on the Tube page.

 

[Arjen]

Found these on bay auctions :
Etendard IVM prototype :
View attachment 652372

The third photo does not have the Aéronavale's anchor on its cockade. How could it be a "IV M" ?

I think the image shows 'VI' on the nose - Étendard VI
<edit> As galgot says, a mirrored image of the Étendard IV 01 </edit>
Second image found here: www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/news/first-flight-of-the-etendard-vi-in-1957

 

[galgot]

Seems it is the Etendard IV 01 (not the -M indeed) , but the image is mirrored , so one read a VI. And the VI has a much shorter nose.
Here straightened and re-mirrored :

These are Le Bourget hangars on the right.
Same image can be found on this page also mirrored :

Etendard IV, de la genèse au prototype (partie 1/3)

L'histoire du Dassault étendard IV de 1955 à 2000. Les numéros 34 & 36 à l'EALC de Lyon Corbas.

spotaero.blogspot.com

And also this one , with 01 on the rudder visible:


It's also the same plane at the beginning of the vid I posted above, which is from Dassault about the IV :



Edit:
They apparently added red trims and lightning and "01" at one time :



The more I look at picts of Etendard IV, the more I like this plane...

 

[galgot]

Some nice picts from Dassault Website ,
The VI :

The IVM Proto :

The Mystère XXII (Etendard II) Mockup :

 

[kaiserbill]

Are there any decent pics around of the IVB fitted with the Avon engine?

 

[galgot]

Are there any decent pics around of the IVB fitted with the Avon engine?

Not very decent...

From here : http://spotaero.blogspot.com/2013/07/etendard-iv-de-la-genese-au-prototype_12.html
"Prototype 03 made its first flight from Melun-Villaroche on December 2, 1959 piloted by Jean-Marie Saget, it was named Standard IV B or Standard IV Avon because it was equipped with a British Rolls-Royce Avon engine with 5100 kg of thrust ( 1 tonne more than ATAR) and a boundary layer control system by blowing the flaps which reduces the stall speed from 220 km / h to 185 km / h but also increases the weight of the aircraft. 'a ton. This system being too complex it will not be used in series and the device will be reformed in 1962 ending its career at the school of mechanics of Rochefort."

#H_K posted more infos here : #32 too.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Galgot.
I have seen that pic before, but it's hard to make out details, and the folded up wingtip is obscuring the rear fuselage.

 

[uk 75]

I know it is forbidden to cross thread but this little French toy Etendard belongs here.
If you like little planes there are more here

Les jouets aéronautiques 2 - aviation le havre

Joyeux Noel En ce 25 décembre, je vais vous parler de jouets aéronautiques en métal. La référence en la matière étant Dinky-toys. Beaucoup de collectionneurs aiment les modèles à la limite du neuf. Personnellement j'aime que les objets aient du vécu....

aviation-le-havre.over-blog.com

 

[galgot]

Thanks Galgot.
I have seen that pic before, but it's hard to make out details, and the folded up wingtip is obscuring the rear fuselage.

Yes :/ Only one I could find the same... Too bad, there is now a Museum at Rochefort, but the IVB was scrapped long before it was established.

 

[H_K]

Are there any decent pics around of the IVB fitted with the Avon engine?

I’ll look through my copy of « La Saga Etendard ». Here’s a few pics of the Etendard IVB 03 I found online... the nose profile and markings changed over time (just like the other prototypes), which makes it hard sometimes to be 100% sure that this is actually #03.

CORRECTION: This last one is not the Etendard #03 IVB prototype but the Super Etendard #03 prototype... please ignore.

 

[galgot]

Are there any decent pics around of the IVB fitted with the Avon engine?

I’ll look through my copy of « La Saga Etendard ». Here’s a few pics of the Etendard IVB 03 I found online... the nose profile and markings changed over time (just like the other prototypes), which makes it hard sometimes to be 100% sure that this is actually #03.

I think the color picture is in fact the Etendard IVM N°13, used as Super Etendard 03 prototype, with full leading edge slats and double slotted flaps, but stil retaining a IVM nose.


From here : http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/super-etendard/super-etendard_fr.htm
"-The third, the Super-Étendard 03 is the Etendard IVM n ° 13. It is an Étendard with an optimized wing (new leading edge slats and double slit flaps) intended to equip the series Super-Étendard. It improves lift at low speeds. The maximum landing weight of 7.8 tonnes on the Etendard has increased to 8.3 tonnes on the Super-Etendard."

The other two, dunno... the one with the hook down seem to have a longer tail pipe ?

 

[kaiserbill]

The other two, dunno... the one with the hook down seem to have a longer tail pipe ?

It definitely looks like an extended tailpipe.
Thanks.
I was wondering in particular what changes were made in that area.

 

[Archibald]

From the very same, splendid website linked upthread

Le Super-Étendard 03 est quant à lui retransformé en Étendard IVM n°13.

Just to clear some confusion,

The Etendard IVB-03 =/= from the Etendard IVM-013

The Etendard IVM-013 become the Super Etendard 03, third prototype... and thus it got a 03 painted on its ass, too !

The former was a very unique airframe with Avon and BLC that flew in 1959 and probably died at Rochefort circa 1965.

The second one live beyond that date since it become one of the Super Etendard prototypes in 1972-75 before... being changed back into an Etendard IVM !

 

[Archibald]

The 3rd Etendard IVM airframe got an Avon and BLC and a 03 painted on it.

The 13rd Etendard IVM airframe later become the third Super Etendard and thus also got a 03 painted on it.

Phew... my brain is bleeding in pain...

 

[H_K]

@kaiserbill More details on the Etendard IV M #03 (IVB), mostly from the trials in Feb-Apr 1960.
Source: La Saga Etendard Tome 1 (JM Gall)

With the original nose: Feb/Mar 1960

With modified nose, carrier compatibility trials at RAF Bedford: Apr 1960
Note the JL100 combined fuel tank/rocket launcher.

Good view of the longer jet pipe for the Avon:

Avon vs. Atar installation details:

Blown wing details:

 

[Archibald]

Damn it, they had to put that extremely ugly nose on that one, too...

A tons of thanks to H_K for those pictures.

Somewhere on the other threads it said the plane was difficult to handle at low speed because of the BLC massive drain of power on the Avon. And the aircraft unfortunately remained marginal on Majestic carriers, according to Indian pilots.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks H_K.
Definitely then has a longer tailpipe.
I thought I saw a bulge in the rear fuselage in front of the vertical stabiliser, but your cutaway shows that it was simply my eyes fooling me.

Edit: interesting line comparison there also between the Avon and Atar.

 

[H_K]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the 3 Etendard variants... shows nicely the evolution from twin Gabizo to single Atar 101E to Orpheus Br.O 12

 

[Archibald]

Both Mirage and Etendard were created as non-Atar LWFs for Armee de l'air and NATO. And thus unlike the contemporary late Mystere IV developments (IVB, SMB 1 2 4) they ended underpowered (Orpheus) or with bad engines (Gabizo, one of Turbomeca few failures).
By 1957 Etendard and Mirage were in serious trouble.
To Dassault credit, they turned these lemons into lemonade. first by putting an Atar into them: Etendard IV and Mirage III-01. Now they matched a SMB-2. Mirage went to AdA and Etendard, to the navy.
And the rest is History...

 

[H_K]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the 3 Etendard variants... shows nicely the evolution from twin Gabizo to single Atar 101E to Orpheus Br.O 12

And now here's a top view of the 3 Etendard variants. Shows nicely the substantial improvement from the "fat" non-area ruled Etendard II to the single-engined IV & VI.

Keeping in mind that the VI had substantially more thrust with one engine than the II had with 2 engines (3,050kgf dry / 3,700kgf with AB for the Orpheus 12 vs. 2,100kgf dry / 3,050kgf with AB for 2 Gabizos) it really was a significant improvement across the board.

Next up... some cross sections.

 

[H_K]

As promised, here are the cross-sections of the 3 Etendard variants. The Atar-powered -IV requires a visibly fatter fuselage than the Orpheus powered -VI.

But it's still interesting to see how similar the internal arrangements are from one design to the other... clearly this must have simplified the design work...

 

[H_K]

Had forgotten to post this info on the Etendard VI:

- Etendard VI 01 prototype with Orpheus B.Or 3 engine (March 1956)
- Etendard VI A with significantly uprated Orpheus B.Or 12 engine (planned Feb 1958)

The ETD-VI A design would have been supersonic, with very good thrust-to-weight ratios and competitive fuel fraction. In fact T/W would have been comparable to the Mirage III & Mirage F1, and only slightly less than an F-8E or F-5E (!)... in a pint-sized package.

Etendard VI A characteristics
Length: 11.85m
Span: 8.16m
Wing area: 21m2
Engine: Orpheus B.Or 12SR with (6,810lb dry / 8,170lb wet; SFC 0.97 dry / 1.62 wet, weight 650-700kg)

Weight, empty: 3,835kg

Payload: 4x 12.7mm guns with 300 rpg, 1 nuclear weapon under fuselage, 2x 1,000lb or 4x 500lb bombs under-wing
Fuel: 2,250L internal. The drawing also shows what looks like a ~600L drop tank under-fuselage.
T-O run: 450m on grass with 2x 500lb bombs

 

[Archibald]

Many thanks. Now I understand your interest for the Etendard VI. And some years down the road it could have had an Adour...

 

[H_K]

Now I understand your interest for the Etendard VI.

Yes Etendard VI vs. F-5A is an interesting what if.

Another interesting comparison is vs. the A-4 Skyhawk. The Etendard VI was very similar in size, weight etc to the early A-4A. Even the avionics and missions were similar. So I like to think it might have enjoyed similar success for land-based users (e.g. Israel?).

The difference being obviously that the VI was optimized more as a transonic fighter (i.e. low drag, reheat), and traded that off for less fuel (it carried 25% less fuel than the A-4... which had an amazing fuel fraction thanks to its large wing tanks).

 

[Archibald]

Now I understand your interest for the Etendard VI.

Yes Etendard VI vs. F-5A is an interesting what if.

Another interesting comparison is vs. the A-4 Skyhawk. The Etendard VI was very similar in size, weight etc to the early A-4A. Even the avionics and missions were similar. So I like to think it might have enjoyed similar success for land-based users (e.g. Israel?).

The difference being obviously that the VI was optimized more as a transonic fighter (i.e. low drag, reheat), and traded that off for less fuel (it carried 25% less fuel than the A-4... which had an amazing fuel fraction thanks to its wing tanks).

And the A-4 in air combat (Vietnam, Israel, Top Gun) proved beyond any doubt, that being supersonic with a reheat is not mandatory to do good work.

Etendard VI vs Skyhawk in air combat would have been pretty interesting. Throw the Hawker Hunter into the lot... or Folland Gnat...

 

[Archibald]

Now I understand your interest for the Etendard VI.

Yes Etendard VI vs. F-5A is an interesting what if.

Another interesting comparison is vs. the A-4 Skyhawk. The Etendard VI was very similar in size, weight etc to the early A-4A. Even the avionics and missions were similar. So I like to think it might have enjoyed similar success for land-based users (e.g. Israel?).

The difference being obviously that the VI was optimized more as a transonic fighter (i.e. low drag, reheat), and traded that off for less fuel (it carried 25% less fuel than the A-4... which had an amazing fuel fraction thanks to its wing tanks).

Another irony, in passing - back in 1973, the French Navy wanted their Super Etendard, not with Atar 8 but... J52. The Skyhawk very own engine. The Aéronavale always had an American tropism the AdA never really had. American aircraft, american engines... from V-156F to E-2D Hawkeye.

(V-156F "official" name was Vindicator for the Americans and Cheasapeake for the British. Which become "Wind indicator" and "Cheesecake" respectively - ROTFLMAO. I can see the French calling theirs "Chaise a piques" - "chair with spikes")

 

[H_K]

Etendard VI vs Skyhawk in air combat would have been pretty interesting.

With the right color scheme the Etendard VI might have won on looks alone!

SF 2 Etendar VI

View File SF 2 Etendar VI The Etendar 6 was part of the NATO contest for light strike fi...

combatace.com

(Sorry for posting a virtual picture but that’s the best available given the paucity of color pictures of the Etendard VI… not even any model kits available sadly)

 

[lostcosmonauts]

Etendard IV from a vintage book find

 

[H_K]

Some info on unusual nuclear strike (!) configurations for the Etendard IVM, from « La Saga Etendard »… not sure they made it into operational use:

https://www.aircraft-navalship.com/uploads/attachment/produit//produit_3368_70450abcb17e1390f0024ac794e24d1e.pdf

« The Etendard IVM-02 prototype with rocket launchers and fuel tanks with « legs » on the underside. These strange tanks predate the 1,300L tanks and special weapons that were considered for carriage on the Etendard, and which were the subject of catapult trials army RAE Bedford in September 1962.

From September 17 to 25, Etendard no 02 performed catapult trials at RAE Bedford for preliminary tests of the special « no.5 container ». Flight tests were initially carried out with a pair of 1,300L Mirage III tanks, whose rear section had been modified to improve ground clearance. Subsequent flights had one 1,300L tank (1,117kg) and one no.5 container (1,350kg weight), followed by two no. 5 containers. Based on the test results, the French Navy adopted the first configuration which was the subject of further trials. A total of 24 catapult launches were performed, including 6 with a test pilot from the CEV. »

 

[lancer21]

Seeing all this Etendard stuff got me wondering, was there a fully supersonic Etendard planned (other than the VI above), or could it have been develop into one, perhaps a stretched, slightly larger version with an AB engine, Avon or Atar etc.?

Recall that the Mirage started life as a small aircraft powered by two tiny engines, but got bigger and bigger until we got the Mirage-III. Could the same development path apply to Etendard?

I'm thinking of this supersonic naval Etendard as taking the place of the F-8 buy. Since as i understand the F-8 was too big for the Clems, perhaps a slightly smaller and lighter supersonic Etendard would be a better fit, not to mention being indigenous.

 

[H_K]

@lancer21 I agree and have wondered if such a scaled up Etendard was ever considered. See this thread:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/supersonic-super-mystère-etendard.36621/post-503265

Perhaps the idea was secretly discussed inside the Dassault design bureaus, especially if they were looking across the ocean at Grumman’s Super Tiger prototypes (which is a close comparable). But I haven’t seen any info. It seems like it would have been very unwelcome as the French Air Force and defense ministry were very clear that they only had money for 1 supersonic interceptor (the Mirage III). The Etendard IV / VI were meant to be only good enough for low level tactical fighter duties and the NATO light fighter requirement.

From a technical perspective, there’s a question mark re: how to fit the longer afterburning engine given that it would interfere with the wing box and landing gear. Moving the engine above the wing box would lead to a « pregnant » look like on the Super Mystère which might not have been ideal from a drag perspective.

But assuming it was technically feasible it probably would have saved a lot of money in the end vs. buying F-8s and would have also given Dassault a better Mirage V alternative for the export market.

 

[H_K]

From a technical perspective, there’s a question mark re: how to fit the longer afterburning engine given that it would interfere with the wing box and landing gear. Moving the engine above the wing box would lead to a « pregnant » look like on the Super Mystère which might not have been ideal from a drag perspective.

@lancer21 Here's a pic to illustrate the size difference between the dry Atar 8B and Atar 9B with reheat. I've positioned the Atar 9B to keep the Etendard IV's center of gravity roughly in the same place. Perhaps not completely impossible...

 

[Archibald]

From a technical perspective, there’s a question mark re: how to fit the longer afterburning engine given that it would interfere with the wing box and landing gear. Moving the engine above the wing box would lead to a « pregnant » look like on the Super Mystère which might not have been ideal from a drag perspective.

Funny to think the Mirage III had low wing, delta (so no problem) the F1 had swept but high wing (no problem either) and the Etendard had a swept wing in the middle - or close.

 

[iverson]

I suspect that [a] the Etendard formula simply reached the end of its development potential with the ATAR 8 and was never intended or engineered to be a supersonic fighter.

The Etendard line began as an adaptation/modernization of the Ouragan/Mystere formula to meet a French requirement for an ultra-lightweight fighter powered by a pair of little Gabizo engines. This design was recast around a Bristol Orpheus to meet the NATO lightweight tactical fighter requirement that was ultimately met by the FIAT G-91R. It went into service with the ATAR 8 as a replacement for the Jaguar M.

The various Etendards and the Jaguar M were tactical fighters--attack aircraft--rather than fighters per se. Supersonic performance was never a requirement. The Etendard was selected because it was good enough for the role and was a domestic product. The A-4 and A-7 were the alternative choices, not the F-8.

France chose the F-8 for the carrier-based fighter role because it was the only available modern fighter aircraft that could operate from its relatively small carriers at a reasonable cost. Phantoms would probably have been preferred, but were too large and heavy. A dedicated French project was probably out of the question given the cost and the small number required.