Dassault Etendard Prototypes and Projects

The irony is that Dassault ended returning to swept wing a decade later... with the F1: after VSTOL and VG types, or in parallel.

The Etendard would never be as good for the high-altitude interceptor role as a pure delta like the Mirage III, which would always win in terms of low drag & structural weight. But as a Mach ~1.5+ (my guess) tactical fighter optimized for high maneuverability and good runway requirements it seems like it could have been a more balanced design.
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And they would call it a Mirage F1 :D (half joking, but the bolded part, really: the F1 raison d'être after the VSTOL failed and paralleling the VG types)
 
Just curious, what would have offered the best practical mix for the French carriers?

1. Crusader / Etendard
2. Crusader / Skyhawk
3. Crusader / Corsair II
 
Thanks for the most educative input, i must admit this was more of a what-if question and i thought i posted it in the what-if section but must have clicked on this link and didn't realized.

I imagined this supersonic Etendard with a streched fuselage to cater for the longer AB engine and restore the COG, and intake mice (souris) like Mirage, Cyrano radar in the nose, an R-530 under the fuselage and/or AIM-9 and R-550s when available under the wings. Still seems to me the result would be smaller and lighter than the F-8.
 
phantomphan said:
Just curious, what would have offered the best practical mix for the French carriers?

1. Crusader / Etendard
2. Crusader / Skyhawk
3. Crusader / Corsair II
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Corsair II would be the best and almost happened in 72' butwas too heavy and expensive.
Skyhawk was second best but S.E was close... with a J52 initially.
 
phantomphan said:
Just curious, what would have offered the best practical mix for the French carriers?

1. Crusader / Etendard
2. Crusader / Skyhawk
3. Crusader / Corsair II
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Tough choice as none of the options are ideal:

1) Crusader / Etendard cost a fair bit of money and the Etendard had limited carrying ability in the strike role.

2) Skyhawk was a great bomb truck but lower performance than an Etendard in the fighter role, lack of radar, might have been a problem for integration of French missiles like the AS-30 and later Exocet.

3) The A-7 Corsair II was weight restricted on the Clemenceau catapults. Though maybe still worth it as even a lightly loaded A-7 might carry as much as a Skyhawk or Etendard.

In hindsight a single multi-role type similar to the F11F-1F Super Tiger would have been ideal. Which Dassault should have been capable of delivering using the Etendard + Atar 9B combo.
 
iverson said:
I suspect that [a] the Etendard formula simply reached the end of its development potential with the ATAR 8 and was never intended or engineered to be a supersonic fighter.

The Etendard line began as an adaptation/modernization of the Ouragan/Mystere formula to meet a French requirement for an ultra-lightweight fighter powered by a pair of little Gabizo engines. This design was recast around a Bristol Orpheus to meet the NATO lightweight tactical fighter requirement that was ultimately met by the FIAT G-91R. It went into service with the ATAR 8 as a replacement for the Jaguar M.

The various Etendards and the Jaguar M were tactical fighters--attack aircraft--rather than fighters per se. Supersonic performance was never a requirement. The Etendard was selected because it was good enough for the role and was a domestic product. The A-4 and A-7 were the alternative choices, not the F-8.

France chose the F-8 for the carrier-based fighter role because it was the only available modern fighter aircraft that could operate from its relatively small carriers at a reasonable cost. Phantoms would probably have been preferred, but were too large and heavy. A dedicated French project was probably out of the question given the cost and the small number required.
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Yeah, the Foch/Clemenceau carriers were basically the size of an Essex class, which never operated Phantoms. Though they did operate A3 Skywarriors...
 
H_K said:
In hindsight a single multi-role type similar to the F11F-1F Super Tiger would have been ideal. Which Dassault should have been capable of delivering using the Etendard + Atar 9B combo.
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I don't think the French would have been willing to sacrifice the sheer performance of the Crusader, though. Even if it was low missile capacity, it was a very good fighter.

I'm more surprised that they didn't run any A-7s, though I'm sure the French heavily weight the fact that it wasn't made there against it. The A-7 was only slightly heavier than the F-8 empty, so "only" loading 10klbs of boom onboard wouldn't have been much of a loss. I mean, yes, that's losing 1/3 of the theoretical max load, but so what? 10klbs is a lot of boom, even with 1000rds of 20mm and a pair of Sidewinders taking a bite out of that. And if the A-7 was flying from land, they could run at max load if needed.
 
I can tell you that, when the Jaguar M ran into trouble late 1971 (cracked engine bay during trials on the Foch) the A-7 was clearly seen as the best option among the whole lot. And Aerospatiale was willing to licence build it, and so was Vought. The company was familiar with the French Aéronavale since 1939, as they used the following types
- V-156F dive bombers, 1939
- F-4U Corsairs, 1953-1963
- Crusaders since 1964.
- Also: by 1969 Vought was working on VG naval aircraft with Dassault.
- They were also changing the wings of the Crusader fleet.

So Vought and the Aéronavale had a long love affair. My understanding was it was considered too expensive, because avionics; and a little too heavy for the carriers (19 tons max was at the extreme capability of BS-5 catapults).

Unfortunately, the influential Dassault hated the A-7 for two major reasons
- Switzerland: it was competing against the Milan (Mirage V with canards) and the whole affair was very ugly. In the end the Swiss just bought more Hawker Hunter (facepalm)
- SNIAS / Aerospatiale offer to licence-build A-7s was their last atempt, ever, at reentering the combat aircraft area - against Dassault. Since 1963 they had competed for ECAT (and lost to Breguet & Jaguar) then Alphajet, also proposals to build F-5s under licence.
Everytime, they had their asses kicked either by Dassault or by the French government, influence by Dassault.

So A-7 was a non starter, despite its qualities.

By order of preference (kind of)
-A-7
-A-4
-upgraded Etendard with J52 (the Navy did not cared about buying French)
-upgraded Etendard with Atar 8 (hello, Super Etendard).
Outsiders
- naval F1 (prototype 04 made approaches on Foch 11/1971)
- Harrier (Landed on Jeanne D'Arc LPH 11/1971)
Out of the race
- Jaguar M
 
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GTX said:
www.twz.com

Argentinian Super Etendard Strike Jets Planned For Transfer To Ukraine: Report

After F-16s and Mirage 2000s, will the French-made Super Etendard strike jet be the next Western combat aircraft for Ukraine?
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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They are now the be flown locally in Argentina (MB seat refurbished by local MB group)
The fix to the reported non-flyable condition (that led to the opening of an investigation in Argentina) seems to be eased by the recent Naval Group bidding for the Argentine Navy (Scorpene submarines).
 
What became of Mystère XXI/Etendard I, Mystère XXIII/Etendard III and Mystère XXV/Etendard V? I’ve found no mention of them on the this site or elsewhere on the internet.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
What became of Mystère XXI/Etendard I, Mystère XXIII/Etendard III and Mystère XXV/Etendard V? I’ve found no mention of them on the this site or elsewhere on the internet.
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This forum's search function can help, at least with the Etendard V. I found the following easily enough:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aeronavale-projects-early-60s.445/post-512322
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/etendard-v-talp-proposal.463/
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dassault-etendard-prototypes-and-projects.11138/post-444585
 
iverson said:
This forum's search function can help, at least with the Etendard V. I found the following easily enough:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aeronavale-projects-early-60s.445/post-512322
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/etendard-v-talp-proposal.463/
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dassault-etendard-prototypes-and-projects.11138/post-444585
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Thank you for your reply.

I used the Secret Projects search function to search Secret Projects for references to the Mystère XXI, Etendard I, Mystère XXIII, Etendard III, Mystère XXV and Etendard V yesterday, before I wrote Post 96. Said search did find two threads that mentioned the Etendard V, but provided no useful information on it and no information whatsoever on the rest.

Which is why I wrote.
NOMISYRRUC said:
I’ve found no mention of them on the this site . . .
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Of the three links in your post.

I found https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aeronavale-projects-early-60s.445/post-512322 yesterday during the search of Secret Projects (using the Secret Projects search function) that I conducted before writing Post 95. This links goes to Post 57 which has a link to the thread on the Etendard V TALP proposal. The Etendard V is mentioned in some of the other posts, but there is no useful information about it in said other posts.

I found https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/etendard-v-talp-proposal.463/ yesterday during the search of Secret Projects (using the Secret Projects search function) that I conducted before writing Post 95. Although the Etendard V was mentioned several times there wasn't any useful information about it when I read it yesterday and there wasn't any useful information in it when I re-read it the first time this morning. However, when I read it for the second time this morning I discovered that I was wrong. More about that later.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dassault-etendard-prototypes-and-projects.11138/post-444585 leads to Post 57 on Page 2 of this thread, which had no information on the Etendard I, III & V when I read it yesterday (before writing Post 95) and it has no information on those projects now.

The main pieces of information that I want are, which engine did Etendard I, III & V have and were they single or twin engine aircraft.

Which, leads me to this morning's second reading of https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/etendard-v-talp-proposal.463/. Post 9 of that thread includes a three-view line drawing of the Etendard V (which I noticed before) which contained a data table (which I hadn't noticed before) written in French which translates as:

Main characteristics of the Etendard V.​
Dimensions​
17.3m Wingspan​
15.5m Length​
Weights​
10,000kg Empty Weight​
18,600kg Maximum Weight​
13,500kg Weight When Landing​
Propulsion: One SNECMA TF10 jet engine of​
5,100kg dry thrust​
9,000kg with reheat​
​
Which, in "old money" (rounded to the nearest inch or nearest 50lbs) is.​
Dimensions​
56ft 09in Wingspan​
50ft 10in Length​
Weights​
22,050lbs Empty Weight​
41,000lbs Maximum Weight​
29,750lbs Weight When Landing​
Propulsion: One SNECMA TF10 jet engine of​
11,250lbs dry thrust​
19,850lbs with reheat​
​
It's a lot bigger than Etendards II, IV, VI & Super Etendard, as well as being much heavier than them and it had a considerably more powerful engine. It's relationship to Etendards II, IV & VI and Super Etendard is akin to the relationship between Mirage IV and the Mirage III/5/50 family.
 
Dassault Mystere / Etendard / Mirage naming was a nightmare. At least Rafale solved this. I was thinking of the Etendard V TLAP, but I see you have found the message.
Ha ! I checked Jean Cuny old but still valuable books. I've found a few answers to that Etendard / Mystere nightmare.

Guess what ? There were two Etendard V ! TLAP was the second one, in the mid - 1960's. Which mean, there was a first Etendard V, in the late 1950's, member of the complicated family of Etendards - the II, the -IV and the -VI.
 

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Archibald said:
Dassault Mystere / Etendard / Mirage naming was a nightmare. At least Rafale solved this. I was thinking of the Etendard V TLAP, but I see you have found the message.
Ha ! I checked Jean Cuny old but still valuable books. I've found a few answers to that Etendard / Mystere nightmare.

Guess what ? There were two Etendard V ! TLAP was the second one, in the mid - 1960's. Which mean, there was a first Etendard V, in the late 1950's, member of the complicated family of Etendards - the II, the -IV and the -VI.
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I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that a downloadable PDF of "Les chasseurs Dassault: Ouragans, Mystères et Super-mystères" is on Scribd. The bad news the text can't be copied and pasted into Google Translate to be translated into English or into a Word document to make it easier to read on a laptop.
 
Archibald said:
Unless you know a website that can OCR a pdf for free
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Here’s an OCR translation tool… if you trust the Russians:
translate.yandex.com

Yandex

Finds everything
translate.yandex.com

@NOMISYRRUC I think the answer is in the first picture posted by @Archibald (p.142): it states that Dassault was using even numbers only for its Mystère projects (Mystère XX, XXII, XXIV, XXVI). So no odd numbers.
 

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