Current US hypersonic weapons projects. (General)

To be fair though, PRSM should offer much better range range and speed compared to current SiAW (which is practically AARGM-ER with different warhead).
I love the idea of MAKO but to be honest, it feel like USA will never buy it, HACM is great as well but not even tested yet and very far aways.
PRSM is already here, adapting it to air launched likely quicker. And if successful, they can take advantage of economy of scale to reduce cost of production
 
To be fair though, PRSM should offer much better range range and speed compared to current SiAW (which is practically AARGM-ER with different warhead).
I love the idea of MAKO but to be honest, it feel like USA will never buy it, HACM is great as well but not even tested yet and very far aways.
PRSM is already here, adapting it to air launched likely quicker. And if successful, they can take advantage of economy of scale to reduce cost of production
PrSM was designed with the Army LRPF CONOPS in mind so integrating that into the USAF's would be tougher. TACMS was a different era. Not to mention stuff like different nav/atk S&HW, propulsion compatibility etc.
Mako being a Lockheed IRAD pitch, I cannot comment anything on it.
Personally I wish to see the fruits of THOR-ER yielding a near-term standoff weapon like how ASALM could have succeeded SRAM. Seriously just embrace the good ol SFRJ.
 
To be fair though, PRSM should offer much better range range and speed compared to current SiAW (which is practically AARGM-ER with different warhead).
I love the idea of MAKO but to be honest, it feel like USA will never buy it, HACM is great as well but not even tested yet and very far aways.
PRSM is already here, adapting it to air launched likely quicker. And if successful, they can take advantage of economy of scale to reduce cost of production

The fact that NG got the contract indicates they had some kind of advantage. It might not have in physical performance - more likely cost, production rate, or speed of development. The USAF has been a lot more open to the idea of good-enough lately, in terms of shear performance and sophistication.
 
The fact that NG got the contract indicates they had some kind of advantage. It might not have in physical performance - more likely cost, production rate, or speed of development. The USAF has been a lot more open to the idea of good-enough lately, in terms of shear performance and sophistication.
Yes, because AARGM-ER is already tested, already produced in small number for Navy so making AARGM-ER with different warhead is obviously quicker than going for a whole new missile like Mako
 
Alex Hollings from Sandbox has a video out about these new hypersonic missiles for the Zumwalt upgrade:


The U.S. Navy’s long-troubled Zumwalt class of stealth destroyers may look like they were ripped straight out the pages of a science fiction novel, but after thirty years of development and more than $30 billion spent… These ships are still trying to find a place in America’s warfighting apparatus.
But now, the inclusion of new hypersonic missiles could turn these wayward warships into stealth snipers — and give them renewed purpose in the 21st century.
Citations:
https://armedservices.house.gov/sites...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...r%20-%20rumford%20statement.pdf&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://crsreports.congress.gov/produ...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...ess.gov/product/pdf/R/R41464/51&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...for-conventional-prompt-strike/&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/202...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...ntract-for-hypersonic-missiles/&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/202...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...rogress-ahead-of-2025-fielding/&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/nuke/R41464.pdfhttps://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...sgp.fas.org/crs/nuke/R41464.pdf&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...ght-test-of-hypersonic-missile/&v=GqEUn0me7Bo
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The Ground News spiel is from 2:15 to 4:03 if one wants to skip it.

Unless these Zumwalt get weapons they can use they will otherwise be hideously expensive white-elephants. They certainly are amongst the ugliest ships I've ever sceen.
 
To be fair though, PRSM should offer much better range range and speed compared to current SiAW (which is practically AARGM-ER with different warhead).
I don't see how a PrSM designed to fit in a F-35 internal bay would have any different range than SiAW/AARGM-ER which is designed around those same constraints. The USAF's SiAW program is optimized to provide an attack weapon to its stand in force. It has other programs for longer ranged weapons both in mature stage and in the S&T realm.

HACM is great as well but not even tested yet and very far aways.
PRSM is already here, adapting it to air launched likely quicker. And if successful, they can take advantage of economy of scale to reduce cost of production
HACM is a missile built to a requirement for range, survivability, and other characteristics. Those requirements have been validated and stand. It is in advance stages of design and the design and test campaign feeding it was quite sucessfull. The USAF is not going to be as boneheaded to cancel it and divert investment to a AL-PrSM unless the HACM program fails to deliver on its promise.

The point of my tweet was the adapting something else from another service is not a mission by itself. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The AF has taken a portfolio based approach to its strike weapon inventory and as such you will be robbing money away from programs to pay for such a proposal. My second point was that it is the component commonality and re-use that saves money in production and sustainment long term. With digital engineering - a path the AF munitions directorate has chosen for all of its new programs (Sentinel, SiAW etc) you are going to be extremely wise to make that upfront design investment and field something that better meets your needs. The cost savings come from competition and having in-production components that support multiple programs. These blogger simply haven't wrapped their head around how the AF has or intends to implemented DE on its weapon programs.

The AF does have an effort in that class - the stand-off platform analog to the SiAW. They are still looking at their options and depending on what the multi-mode seeker variant of the PrSm looks like, Lockheed may propose something that is a variant of that, on it but there I would much rather they collaborate with the Army and Navy programs to re-use mature technologies than forcing yourself to adapt a weapon. If they want a SiAW analog that is carried by say the F-15E's or B-52's then following the similar AARGM-ER / SiAW requirements approach (over HARM) you are looking at something that has marginal increase in ToF with dramatic increase in range. If those are worth pursuits, you are probably already in HACM territory so a non-airbreathing option might lead them to something that may be different from PrSM.
 
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I’m sure someone has posted this but what would be the size difference, but to have roughly the same range, between ground launched and air launched at, let’s say .90 Mach and 40k ft?
 
I’m sure someone has posted this but what would be the size difference, but to have roughly the same range, between ground launched and air launched at, let’s say .90 Mach and 40k ft?

Taking SM-6 as an example (since now it has both variants), you can probably strike targets at the same range without the booster when you air-launch vs surface launch with booster.
 
I don't see how a PrSM designed to fit in a F-35 internal bay would have any different range than SiAW/AARGM-ER which is designed around those same constraints. The USAF's SiAW program is optimized to provide an attack weapon to its stand in force. It has other programs for longer ranged weapons both in mature stage and in the S&T realm.
PrSM is roughly the same length as AARGM-ER but it has 17 inches diameter while AARGM-ER diameter is only 10 inches, it should be capable of carrying alot more propulsion. I don’t even think PrSM need to be able to fit F-35 weapons bay. If PrSM can reach 500 km when launched from ground, then it should reach something like 1000 or 1500 km when launched from 40k ft, perfectly adequate stand off weapon for F-15, F-16,F-18. It could be something to complement SIAW


HACM is a missile built to a requirement for range, survivability, and other characteristics. Those requirements have been validated and stand. It is in advance stages of design and the design and test campaign feeding it was quite sucessfull. The USAF is not going to be as boneheaded to cancel it and divert investment to a AL-PrSM unless the HACM program fails to deliver on its promise.
Yeah I’m worry on that part, it kinda seem like US military does have the habit of canceling their supersonic /hypersonic weapons project, obviously, if they success with HACM, I would be very happy, but if they somehow don’t, or if they somehow take another 20-30 years because of whatever reason like funding then having an AL-PRSM in short term is not bad, obvious not perfect but better than nothing. If they success with HACM then I still don’t think AL-PRSM is bad, it could be a complement weapon with different advantage such as cost, and since it is a ballistic missile they can probably configured it to carry several decoy like Kinzhal did
 
PrSM is roughly the same length as AARGM-ER but it has 17 inches diameter while AARGM-ER diameter is only 10 inches, it should be capable of carrying alot more propulsion. I don’t even think PrSM need to be able to fit F-35 weapons bay.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that we change the platform carriage requirements of the Stand In Attack Weapon in order to buy PrSM? A key feature of SiAW is F-35 carriage. You simply quoted my tweet and started talking about AL-PrSM being XYZ relative to SiAW when I never claimed that SiAW was a superior weapon in that regard (as is PrSM cannot meet that guidance requirement). I mean there's a reason its called a "Stand-In" platform weapon.

My point simply was to take the path of DE and focus on system commonality to save money. This combination allows you to affordably and quickly field highly optimized weapons vs taking the approach of simply adapting whatever the Army or Navy has and perhaps only addressing one or two of those components. I am all for the AF adapting weapons like the SM-6 that have operational air launched variants. But an ‘ability to adapt’ a ground launched weapon should not be the sole criteria for creating a new munitions program. In other words, let such an adapted weapon earn its way into the AF inventory.

If the AF needs another weapon between the SiAW and HACM that is not the JASSM-ER, it needs to first follow its requirements process and determine what charecteristics such weapon needs to have..what targets it needs to defeat..etc etc. Then it can leverage its DE capabilities sucessfully demonstrated on programs like Sentinel, SiAW and now increasingly HACM to get that weapon. All those things are affordability drivers. But these bloggers seem to concentrate on simply "Adapt PrSM" as if other things and considerations simply don't matter.

My point, if it wasn't clear enough, was that the digital designs the AF has for its munitions lends itself nicely to different variants leveraging fielded systems. For example, the SiAW guidance and associated production base can be repurposed for SoAW with a larger diameter air-breathing or rocket based propulsion system. In fact, Northrop Grumman has toyed around with those ideas already. Same applies to the work Lockheed and L3Harris did on their respective SiAW designs. The AF is already looking into things like that. But let's not jump the gun. HACM is pushing some interesting cost goals and Northrop is running ahead of production phase in setting up its facilities to produce at the programs scale. And with OSD and Navy funding there's moving target capability being spiralled in as well. I think HACM cost / capability will define SoAW and future efforts. PrSM increments that may be of interest to the USAF are at least 2-3 years from being fielded by the Army so those aren't even real options at the moment.
or if they somehow take another 20-30 years

They are using a OTA for this contract IIRC. Those are 3-5 years. Of course they could face a 15 year delay on a 5 year program without the whole thing ever being cancelled. :rolleyes: But let's say they do what then? How does the PrSM perform against those requirements? Does it have sameToF, survivability and other characteristics? I think it might not be just that simply as swapping one Army weapon for HACM because it sounds cool to do so. Not having HACM might push the AF to look at its portfolio more broadly and the result may be a very different mix of capabilities.
 
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The U.S. Army's Rapid Capabilities and Critical Technologies Office, in collaboration with the U.S. Navy Strategic Systems Programs, recently completed a successful end-to-end flight test of a conventional hypersonic missile from Cape Canaveral Space Force Station, Florida.

This is the second successful end-to-end flight test of the All Up Round (AUR) this year and was the first live-fire event for the Long-Range Hypersonic Weapon system using a Battery Operations Center and a Transporter Erector Launcher.
 
Well that’s good to hear. The launcher seemed to create all sorts of issues that I would not have expected. Though it was something of a crash program.

Was there a NOTAM issued that would give us some idea of the impact zone range?
 
The missile displayed in that image is X-51...
X-51 is referenced as the image. I assumed a much smaller interstage and the fact that the booster is not as large (dia) as ATACMS - 19 inches vs 24 inches. Overall, this should be a less lengthy, roughly 20 feet or thereabouts vs the 25 ft length of the X-51 which is roughly hAWC length as per prior Navy solicitations.
 
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The USS Zumwalt* has just finished its' 14 month refit to carry hypersonic missiles, from Defense Updates:


A big development has taken place when it comes to augmenting the capabilities of the US Navy in the realm of hypersonic weapons.In Aug 2023, the guided-missile destroyer USS Zumwalt (DDG-1000) arrived at Huntington Ingalls Industries (HII) Mississippi shipyard to begin a two-year process to install hypersonic missile tubes.The warship has now been put back in the water after undergoing 14 months of work.The launchers that will eventually fire Intermediate-Range Conventional Prompt Strike (IRCPS) hypersonic missiles.
In this video, Defense Updates analyzes how the Zumwalt class is on its way to getting a major lethality boost with the IRCPS system?
Chapters:
00:11 INTRODUCTION
01:46 THE UPGRADE
03:30 IRCPS
06:18 ANALYSIS

*The Zumwalt class has to be one of the ugliest ship designs I've ever seen.
 
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X-51 is referenced as the image. I assumed a much smaller interstage and the fact that the booster is not as large (dia) as ATACMS - 19 inches vs 24 inches. Overall, this should be a less lengthy, roughly 20 feet or thereabouts vs the 25 ft length of the X-51 which is roughly hAWC length as per prior Navy solicitations.

My guess as well; I think it will be roughly AGM-86 size/mass. The 3D printed engine is supposed to be half the weight of X-51s machined version, which should make for a lot of savings everywhere else. Shrinking the interstage and optimizing the booster for the role should also drop weight.
 
X-51 is referenced as the image. I assumed a much smaller interstage and the fact that the booster is not as large (dia) as ATACMS - 19 inches vs 24 inches. Overall, this should be a less lengthy, roughly 20 feet or thereabouts vs the 25 ft length of the X-51 which is roughly hAWC length as per prior Navy solicitations.
6m (20ft) would be an interesting length because with another 0.55m of booster added it could also become a VLS missile as well as an AL-missile. I note it's the right diameter for such too.
 
6m (20ft) would be an interesting length because with another 0.55m of booster added it could also become a VLS missile as well as an AL-missile. I note it's the right diameter for such too.

I doubt it. That likely is not nearly enough to get the scramjet cruiser going from sea level. HALO, which will be limited to 15 feet, would be a better candidate. You could tack a mk72 onto that, and I suspect HALO will not be a pure scramjet regardless of who produces it.
 
I doubt it. That likely is not nearly enough to get the scramjet cruiser going from sea level. HALO, which will be limited to 15 feet, would be a better candidate. You could tack a mk72 onto that, and I suspect HALO will not be a pure scramjet regardless of who produces it.
Hard to say, a 300km ATACMS reaches around Mach 5 at 1.5+t and that doesn't have the extra booster length plus another 0.55m for ground launching.

That said, with the HACM being AF and the HALO being Navy you are probably correct that the HALO is a more likely candidate.
 
X-51 is referenced as the image. I assumed a much smaller interstage and the fact that the booster is not as large (dia) as ATACMS - 19 inches vs 24 inches. Overall, this should be a less lengthy, roughly 20 feet or thereabouts vs the 25 ft length of the X-51 which is roughly hAWC length as per prior Navy solicitations.

Sounds roughly the same size as LRASM-B
 

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Hard to say, a 300km ATACMS reaches around Mach 5 at 1.5+t and that doesn't have the extra booster length plus another 0.55m for ground launching.

That said, with the HACM being AF and the HALO being Navy you are probably correct that the HALO is a more likely candidate.

We have a poster here who says that a B-52 struggled to get the X-51 to altitude.
 
We have a poster here who says that a B-52 struggled to get the X-51 to altitude.
I don't know if that's true but it's a heavier missile and you'd be able to use a 3m (10ft) long 21" booster to get the vehicle to altitude and speed from a ship. The X-51 engine may also have had a very limiting operating envelope with it being a prototype. I don't know how flexible the HACM engine will be but the minimum speed for a scramjet is around M4.0, which seems achievable.
 
So I guess now the remaining Navy tests are:

Canister launch from land;
Canister launch from sea at surface;
Canister underwater in controlled environment; and
Canister underwater launch at sea.
 

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