Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining an independent strategic nuclear deterrent?

Just a weird idea; what about solving the Blue Streak basing issues by launching it from surfacs ship, moving in British home water?

RN still have "Leviathan" hull rusting incomplete by 1960. What about rebuilding this light carrier into a mobile Blue Streak platform? Yes, liquid oxygen onboard is bad idea for warship - but "Leviathan" would not be a warship. It would only be moving in UK homewater, most likely never venturing far from coastline. No need to think about battle damage or something. And due to its mobility, it would be much more resistant to sudden strikes than land-based missies.

When more efficient deterrent would became available by 1970s, it could be moved to Pacific to deter China - again, staying in safe waters all the time.

P.S. Also it would placate the navy about criticism of the program.
 
That being written No. 2. There are occasions when I think . . . "What were they on!" Blue Streak is one because it's obvious that the USSR would develop its own ballistic missiles sooner or later. In defence of the people that made the decisions it was sooner than expected. However, hundreds of millions of Pounds worth of Blue Streaks would still become obsolete by 1970 even if the USSR had developed ballistic missiles later rather than sooner. Therefore, on this occasion the middleman should have been cut out and the powers that be gone straight for a SLBM or Blue Steel Mk 2 or a British analogue to Skybolt.
Blue Streak was rapidly overtaken and the silo idea, while good, was never politically sound.
The RN could see in 1959-60 that Blue Streak would never be as cost effective as Polaris, replacing Blue Streak would be equally as expensive (and would have had to fit the same siloes). The siloes were designed to withstand 1MT bursts within a certain distance, but were very much - like Polaris - a second strike weapon. And four (or five or six) SSBNs offered more survivability during the first exchange (assuming enough was left for anyone to care about a second exchange).
I can see why they did it and why the tech at that time forced the design they had, but I agree it was always sub-optimal. It a shame that ELDO was just a mess that no civilian use could be obtained to make some return on the programme.

I think perhaps the question is - should the UK, like the USA, USSR and France, have forked out the cash to keep a three or two-pronged nuclear force going?

That being written No. 3. It has been said that success breeds success. IOTL it was too often the opposite. Failure bread failure. I don't blame you for thinking some if it is too good to be true. I do sometimes. However, getting a few more things right first time in the period 1945-50 would have paid large dividends over the following decades.
I would agree, more lucky breaks might have made all the difference.

I don't like all of your comments, but I pay attention to them and despite the tone of some of my replies I appreciate them. As I've said in our private messages I feel like a five-year-old child playing with the big boys in this forum. People such as yourself are published authors and I'm only a low-level enthusiast. For what its worth I thank you and all the other proper historians who contribute to this forum for tolerating me.
Thankyou for your kind words, I tend to be sceptical sometimes but there is nothing personal. No AH is perfect, we'd all pick different things.

Just a weird idea; what about solving the Blue Streak basing issues by launching it from surfacs ship, moving in British home water?
I believe there might have been some early ideas along those lines. I've certainly seen a lot of what-if ships (like Vanguard with Blue Streaks etc.) over the years. I don't think its the right missile for that and given the range of Blue Streak you'd want the ship off the East Coast or in the Med and there it would be vulnerable to counter attack.

How accurate were they? How heavy were the accurate ones?

Because you need one on the submarine accurate enough to tell the missile where it's starting, and a second one on the missile to check.
Good questions. I don't know all those answers off the top of my head. The star trackers never got beyond prototypes. Aviation inertial seemed to go well though.
 
IF...
If UK is developing it's own solid fuel SLBM.....
Why would they copy directly US design of Polaris?
Why 54" diameter, when they would have to build their own solid fuel press?
Their own silos
And fit with their RVs equipped with their warheads.
All not US design
All not US standard
Why 54" diameter?

Why the assumption of US standard?
If they're willing to skimp on shock protection, then anything up to a Poseidon-sized weapon could be theoretically loaded on the tubes. The downside is that the US does this for submarines after developing a lightweight Polaris tube for a truck-based launcher for MLF.

If the UK is going for a Valiant hull-plug, than at best they're getting a pressure hull diameter 3 inches greater than US Polaris boats. This means that any UK SLBM is not going to be wider diameter than Poseidon at best. Admittedly you could still get much better range out of a Poseidon-sized H202-Kerosene fueled missile.
 
Polaris A1 had single warheads, so one boat on alert would be 16 "deployed" or 48 "deployed" if they also counted the boats coming and going. Polaris A3 could take up to 3 warheads, but the UK went with 2 warheads plus decoys under Chevaline, for 32/96 deployed. Trident 2 can carry up to 14 warheads, so that's up to 224 per boat they're counting.
Britain initially used Polaris A-3T, with three warheads per missile, until Chevaline entered service.
 
I believe there might have been some early ideas along those lines. I've certainly seen a lot of what-if ships (like Vanguard with Blue Streaks etc.) over the years. I don't think its the right missile for that and given the range of Blue Streak you'd want the ship off the East Coast or in the Med and there it would be vulnerable to counter attack.
Maybe... but again, in Mediterranean there is Malta, Gibraltar and NATO allies (like Italy). Enough safe waters to put missile launching platform here.
 
Just a weird idea; what about solving the Blue Streak basing issues by launching it from surfacs ship, moving in British home water?

RN still have "Leviathan" hull rusting incomplete by 1960. What about rebuilding this light carrier into a mobile Blue Streak platform? Yes, liquid oxygen onboard is bad idea for warship - but "Leviathan" would not be a warship. It would only be moving in UK homewater, most likely never venturing far from coastline. No need to think about battle damage or something. And due to its mobility, it would be much more resistant to sudden strikes than land-based missies.

When more efficient deterrent would became available by 1970s, it could be moved to Pacific to deter China - again, staying in safe waters all the time.

P.S. Also it would placate the navy about criticism of the program.

Let the madness begin... !

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8M_j8yZiQM&t=97s


Rockets-from-ships is one of my pet peeves...
 
Rockets-from-ships is one of my pet peeves...
Aw) Thank you for video!

Well, I envisioned more... throughout conversion of "Leviathan", with either launch tubes integrated or coffin-type launchers employed. The main problem would most likely be protecting the missile from ship's vibrations...
 
If they're willing to skimp on shock protection, then anything up to a Poseidon-sized weapon could be theoretically loaded on the tubes.
Quite the opposite really on shock.

But potentially then something like a 60" to 65" diameter missile of 29ft length or so.
If physics package is 18" to 20" diameter, then 4 can fit something like 42" to 45" diameter missile.
And at least 5 inside a 60" diameter. But in theory 8 to 9 inside 65" diameter.

So opting for the large diameter missile gives options.
A single 40" to 45" RV carrying a fission device of 4,000lb to 4,500lb can be revised to a longer ranged lighter 22" Blue Granite based device of 2,240lb. In theory 2 such RVs per missile.
But once this door opens the potential of 600lb device of 18" allows RVs of 20" and potential to loft multiple RVs per missile.
This visible as concept by '58.

Arguably then a revised multiple RV delivery system is possible and insitituted in this period '58-'63.
 
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SSBN/SSN: tried, failed to find what I dimly remember: did find 1965 discussion of building No.5 as SSN, but what I wanted was discussion of building more than 5 as cut-and-shunt 6-pack Missile Compartment in dual role SS(B)N. Memory says, crewing issue; compromise of both roles; no financial benefit.
 
I think perhaps the question is - should the UK, like the USA, USSR and France, have forked out the cash to keep a three or two-pronged nuclear force going?
Maybe if they'd kept the Empire.

Otherwise there's just not enough money to do more than one deterrent source. Not enough V-bombers to both disperse and get to their targets. No space in the UK for missile silos.


SSBN/SSN: tried, failed to find what I dimly remember: did find 1965 discussion of building No.5 as SSN, but what I wanted was discussion of building more than 5 as cut-and-shunt 6-pack Missile Compartment in dual role SS(B)N. Memory says, crewing issue; compromise of both roles; no financial benefit.
Yes, if you're going to build a strategic deterrent submarine, that's the ONLY mission it does. The only mission you want it doing, as well.
 
Good questions. I don't know all those answers off the top of my head. The star trackers never got beyond prototypes. Aviation inertial seemed to go well though.
You technically need both. One or two star trackers installed in the periscopes to update the INS on the sub, then a flightweight star tracker and INS in the bird.

Aviation INS tend to not be as accurate, since most planes don't fly for anywhere near as long as a submarine goes without updating the fix via other nav systems.

And the attack subs got aircraft RLGNs (out of an F-18), while the missile subs still kept a mechanical gyro. SINS/ESGN
 
You technically need both. One or two star trackers installed in the periscopes to update the INS on the sub, then a flightweight star tracker and INS in the bird.

Aviation INS tend to not be as accurate, since most planes don't fly for anywhere near as long as a submarine goes without updating the fix via other nav systems.

And the attack subs got aircraft RLGNs (out of an F-18), while the missile subs still kept a mechanical gyro. SINS/ESGN
This might put your mind at rest for the submarine equipment.
Needed some US input but work was underway in the mid-1950s and was operational by the late 1960s.

 
This I found floating around on the net, not sure where but I do know the original came from a JBIS article on Black Arrow which included its possible development into a nuclear armed missile.


Black Arrow Black Knight Polaris A3 Blue Streak.png
 
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I have been reading Peter Hennessy's 'Cabinets and the Bomb' which contains reproductions of Government/Cabinet meetings minutes and Memo's - The pages I include here relate to discussions concerning the number and type of Missile Submarines... Apologies for the quality, but they were just quick snapshots taken from the book..
 

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I have been reading Peter Hennessy's 'Cabinets and the Bomb' which contains reproductions of Government/Cabinet meetings minutes and Memo's - The pages I include here relate to discussions concerning the number and type of Missile Submarines... Apologies for the quality, but they were just quick snapshots taken from the book..
Pirate Pete could you photograph the discussion or document which I think Macmillan commissioned in 1962 or thereabouts which looked at British built alternatives to Polaris and ruled them out.
I thought I had this book but I may have used a copy on Oxford Library.
 
This might put your mind at rest for the submarine equipment.
Needed some US input but work was underway in the mid-1950s and was operational by the late 1960s.

Outstanding!

So we have something resembling a good INS to tell the missiles where they are starting from.

Still need the star trackers to update the SINS fix and to update the missile location.
 
Pirate Pete could you photograph the discussion or document which I think Macmillan commissioned in 1962 or thereabouts which looked at British built alternatives to Polaris and ruled them out.
I thought I had this book but I may have used a copy on Oxford Library.
uk 75 - I have found the following from Cabinet in 1963 and also, on the discussion regarding the potential composition of the SSBN force:
Hope they help.
 

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Not sure how I missed responding to this at the time...

Just a weird idea; what about solving the Blue Streak basing issues by launching it from surfacs ship, moving in British home water?

RN still have "Leviathan" hull rusting incomplete by 1960. What about rebuilding this light carrier into a mobile Blue Streak platform? Yes, liquid oxygen onboard is bad idea for warship - but "Leviathan" would not be a warship. It would only be moving in UK homewater, most likely never venturing far from coastline. No need to think about battle damage or something. And due to its mobility, it would be much more resistant to sudden strikes than land-based missies.

When more efficient deterrent would became available by 1970s, it could be moved to Pacific to deter China - again, staying in safe waters all the time.
What's the range of Blue Streak? 2000nmi/~1800 3600km? (edited for brain failure)

I don't think you can cover all the targets while remaining in British home waters. (Does anyone have a missile range webapp they like?)

And even then, it's not like British home waters are safe. German uboats were all over the UK territorial waters in both world wars, and the North Sea is outside the GIUK gap.

Nor is any part of the Pacific ocean any semblance of safe.
 
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In theory 4000 km (2500 miles).
Well, that's at least enough range to get to the Urals, so it's viable. Lots more viable than 1500nmi Polaris stuck close to UK shores, anyways.

I'm still not willing to accept anywhere on the ocean as "safe waters"
 
Well, that's at least enough range to get to the Urals, so it's viable.
Do not forget, it was designed as land-based IRBM, capable of reaching USSR territory from Britain)
I'm still not willing to accept anywhere on the ocean as "safe waters"
Well, this basically works against Polaris too) Since NATO could only approximate Soviet anti-submarine capabilities)
 
Well, this basically works against Polaris too) Since NATO could only approximate Soviet anti-submarine capabilities)
Key word there is "on" the ocean.

Under the ocean is about as close to undetectable as you can get in the modern world.
 
Just for the fun of it: I criss-crossed Wikipedia entries for the 1st generation of british and french boomer subs.

Resolutable.PNG
 
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