Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[lordroel]

June 9, 1958
Washington, DC, USA

President Eisenhower was furious. The CIA had blatantly ignored his orders and committed American personnel to the operation in Indonesia. And now one of those men had been executed. The man had been dead for nearly a month and the Indonesians had only just now informed them of that fact! Of course, they had apologized profusely for the oversight of course. They claimed that the proper notification had been duly sent out but due to the unrest in their country, it was lost in the labyrinth that made up any bureaucracy.

Will he order all CIA agents who are still in Indonesia out of the country, if there are still any left.

 

[Archibald]

This won't help the CIA and Dulles respective cases when Francis Garry Power U-2 will eat a SA-2 missile, two years down the road.

Those arseholes really led Ike to believe U-2s were safe. When they were absolutely not.

It is completely forgotten today, but there was a very serious warning call that was not taken into account. On October 7, 1959, a ROCAF RB-57D flying as high as a U-2 - and over Mao's China - was the first victim, ever, of a SA-2.

Yet the aptly-named Dulles and the CIA just put their heads into the sand and carried on with the U-2 USSR overflights.

Until of course the fecal matter hit the wind machine in a truly spectacular way.

I see with great pleasure that the "discount sale" of Essex carriers has started.

Incidentally... 14 years ago (is 2006 that far away ?) I had a similar idea, and a lot of fun writting this.

Mon monde parallèle

what-if (If you have imagination, invent you own History!!)

myparalelworld.populus.org

 

[SSgtC]

This won't help the CIA and Dulles respective cases when Francis Garry Power U-2 will eat a SA-2 missile, two years down the road.

Those arseholes really led Ike to believe U-2s were safe. When they were absolutely not.

It is completely forgotten today, but there was a very serious warning call that was not taken into account. On October 7, 1959, a ROCAF RB-57D flying as high as a U-2 - and over Mao's China - was the first victim, ever, of a SA-2.

Yet the aptly-named Dulles and the CIA just put their heads into the sand and carried on with the U-2 USSR overflights.

To be fair, it was claimed by the PRC that the aircraft was shot down by a MiG, not by a SAM. Though as I understand it, the Soviet overflights would have continued regardless since the U-2 was really the only semi reliable way they had of getting close to real time photo intel.

 

[SSgtC]

June 9, 1958
Washington, DC, USA

President Eisenhower was furious. The CIA had blatantly ignored his orders and committed American personnel to the operation in Indonesia. And now one of those men had been executed. The man had been dead for nearly a month and the Indonesians had only just now informed them of that fact! Of course, they had apologized profusely for the oversight of course. They claimed that the proper notification had been duly sent out but due to the unrest in their country, it was lost in the labyrinth that made up any bureaucracy.

The United States had been humiliated in Indonesia. The Soviets were crowing quite loudly about the United States' utter disregard for the sovereignty of a freely elected government. Throughout the developing world, the prestige of the United States had taken a severe beating. All that he could deal with. When nations played games to gain influence and control, they both played to win and you couldn't win every time. But the death of an American, when he had specifically ordered the CIA not to use Americans in the operation, that he could not stomach.

He had insisted on plausible deniability. That had been partially lost when a tabloid in India had splashed the entire plan across its front page. While that was bad, it was still something that could have been overcome. But having an American airmen shot down with all his ID on him and concrete proof that he was still actively involved with the United States Government in the form of a Clark Air Base Officer's Club ID card was a disaster that they could not deny. Oh they were trying. But it turned his stomach what they had to do. The CIA and his government had completely disavowed Allen Pope. He was decried as a rouge that had disobeyed direct orders, stolen US Government property and used it to attack the legitimate government of Indonesia. He had been forced to issue a formal, public apology to Indonesia for Pope's actions. Allen Dulles had a lot of explaining to do.

Ouch... This is a VERY significant event actually since it should be now clear that Dulles' "pitch" that the CIA can easily handle any "non-war" action is obviously in question which means the NEXT "planned" CIA operation is likely to have a lot less support from Ike and Nixon. We'll see of course but Ike had been 'convinced' by such things as the 'success' of the 1953 Iranian coup that the CIA could handle such operations yet here they specifically both disobeyed his directive, (which to be honest they did with things like U2 operations as well but this is much more in-his-face) AND failed so he's not going to be very favorable to their idea of 'invading' Cuba...

Randy

Let's just say that if he could, Eisenhower would fire Dulles yesterday. But firing him would be seen as confirmation that the US was involved and Dulles was the sacrificial lamb.

 

[SSgtC]

June 9, 1958
Washington, DC, USA

President Eisenhower was furious. The CIA had blatantly ignored his orders and committed American personnel to the operation in Indonesia. And now one of those men had been executed. The man had been dead for nearly a month and the Indonesians had only just now informed them of that fact! Of course, they had apologized profusely for the oversight of course. They claimed that the proper notification had been duly sent out but due to the unrest in their country, it was lost in the labyrinth that made up any bureaucracy.

Will he order all CIA agents who are still in Indonesia out of the country, if there are still any left.

God, no. Indonesia is likely to expel any one they suspect of being CIA, but Eisenhower isn't going to order everyone out.

 

[lordroel]

June 9, 1958
Washington, DC, USA

President Eisenhower was furious. The CIA had blatantly ignored his orders and committed American personnel to the operation in Indonesia. And now one of those men had been executed. The man had been dead for nearly a month and the Indonesians had only just now informed them of that fact! Of course, they had apologized profusely for the oversight of course. They claimed that the proper notification had been duly sent out but due to the unrest in their country, it was lost in the labyrinth that made up any bureaucracy.

Will he order all CIA agents who are still in Indonesia out of the country, if there are still any left.

God, no. Indonesia is likely to expel any one they suspect of being CIA, but Eisenhower isn't going to order everyone out.

But he is going to order the CIA to make sure that it cannot happen again, that a CIA agent is caught.

Also what did the Soviet Union responds be with Indonesia executing a Spy.

 

[SSgtC]

But he is going to order the CIA to make sure that it cannot happen again, that a CIA agent is caught.

Also what did the Soviet Union responds be with Indonesia executing a Spy.

Don't get caught is lesson one, day one.

And Indonesia didn't execute a Spy. They executed a terrorist convicted of terror bombing civilian targets.

 

[RanulfC]

This won't help the CIA and Dulles respective cases when Francis Garry Power U-2 will eat a SA-2 missile, two years down the road.

Those arseholes really led Ike to believe U-2s were safe. When they were absolutely not.

It is completely forgotten today, but there was a very serious warning call that was not taken into account. On October 7, 1959, a ROCAF RB-57D flying as high as a U-2 - and over Mao's China - was the first victim, ever, of a SA-2.

Yet the aptly-named Dulles and the CIA just put their heads into the sand and carried on with the U-2 USSR overflights.

Until of course the fecal matter hit the wind machine in a truly spectacular way.

I see with great pleasure that the "discount sale" of Essex carriers has started.

Incidentally... 14 years ago (is 2006 that far away ?) I had a similar idea, and a lot of fun writting this.

Mon monde parallèle

what-if (If you have imagination, invent you own History!!)

myparalelworld.populus.org

To be clear everyone KNEW the U2 wasn't 'safe' which is why they were frantically trying to develop anti-radar systems which would eventually lead to the A12/SR71 among other things. As SSgtC notes it was an unfortunate fact that no matter what the U2 was the only game in town because we NEEDED the intel.

I can't find my cite atm but the REAL issue for over-flights was I think either in 57 or 58 (probably mis-remembering the year) when a British Canberra overflew Moscow in broad daylight on a photo run and no attempt at intercept was made at all. Did NOT go over well with the politicians so detection and intercept operations went way up after that little incident.

Let's just say that if he could, Eisenhower would fire Dulles yesterday. But firing him would be seen as confirmation that the US was involved and Dulles was the sacrificial lamb.

Oh he wouldn't 'fire' him... Ok, maybe out of a cannon But Dulles' isn't very likely to have any political credit left after this and it's not likely he'll be in operational charge of the CIA for much longer I suspect. The CIA was really not doing as well as they advertised in most of the 'operational' aspects of the job that Dulles had pitched to Ike in this time period in OTL let alone with this fiasco. I suspect it's not going to be Congress TTL that scales back the CIA's ambitions but a more executive level commitment. There WERE aspects of the CIA that worked and worked pretty well but the emphasis on 'direct' operations as opposed to support and intelligence operations was what Dulles-et-al were pushing and they were not the OSS.

Don't get caught is lesson one, day one.

And Indonesia didn't execute a Spy. They executed a terrorist convicted of terror bombing civilian targets.

"Mercenary in the employ of illegal anti-government rebels" would be the probable justification as that checks all the 'official' boxes and is essentially what the US is going with as well. (wink-wink-say-no-more-etc) And yes Ike will make it SPECIFICALLY clear to Dulles that no more American's are to be in a position to get caught OR ELSE as this is already a disaster. Problem is IIRC that between his capture and this point there may (?) have been some more operations which left open the chance of another incident. As SSgtC said Ike won't order them out but the operation will have to be quickly transitioned to "local" manning by deniable personnel, (and like any such rush job that has it's own problems) with only CIA out-of-sight backup or scaled back significantly. The problem with the former is getting 'reliable' local support on such short notice and the latter is getting everything out before something else happens AND losing the majority of what little momentum the operation has gotten so far. Career advancement for anyone involved in this op is going to be dim to say the least.

On the other hand, this is going to VERY much make a great case for the US in supporting Australian defense expansion... Gee, that's convenient for the story progression. I'm SO surprised that would work out so well for that purpose...

Randy

 

[SSgtC]

I can't find my cite atm but the REAL issue for over-flights was I think either in 57 or 58 (probably mis-remembering the year) when a British Canberra overflew Moscow in broad daylight on a photo run and no attempt at intercept was made at all. Did NOT go over well with the politicians so detection and intercept operations went way up after that little incident.

You also had this little gem from 1987. The more things change...

Oh he wouldn't 'fire' him... Ok, maybe out of a cannon But Dulles' isn't very likely to have any political credit left after this and it's not likely he'll be in operational charge of the CIA for much longer I suspect. The CIA was really not doing as well as they advertised in most of the 'operational' aspects of the job that Dulles had pitched to Ike in this time period in OTL let alone with this fiasco. I suspect it's not going to be Congress TTL that scales back the CIA's ambitions but a more executive level commitment. There WERE aspects of the CIA that worked and worked pretty well but the emphasis on 'direct' operations as opposed to support and intelligence operations was what Dulles-et-al were pushing and they were not the OSS.

Yeah, Dulles is not looking very good right now. The operation blew up in OTL too, but the diplomats were able to mainly smooth things over and get Pope released. Not this time.

"Mercenary in the employ of illegal anti-government rebels" would be the probable justification as that checks all the 'official' boxes and is essentially what the US is going with as well. (wink-wink-say-no-more-etc) And yes Ike will make it SPECIFICALLY clear to Dulles that no more American's are to be in a position to get caught OR ELSE as this is already a disaster. Problem is IIRC that between his capture and this point there may (?) have been some more operations which left open the chance of another incident. As SSgtC said Ike won't order them out but the operation will have to be quickly transitioned to "local" manning by deniable personnel, (and like any such rush job that has it's own problems) with only CIA out-of-sight backup or scaled back significantly. The problem with the former is getting 'reliable' local support on such short notice and the latter is getting everything out before something else happens AND losing the majority of what little momentum the operation has gotten so far. Career advancement for anyone involved in this op is going to be dim to say the least.

On the other hand, this is going to VERY much make a great case for the US in supporting Australian defense expansion... Gee, that's convenient for the story progression. I'm SO surprised that would work out so well for that purpose...

Funny how things work out like that, ain't it? And yes, for the legal end of it, Pope was basically classified as a Mercenary enemy combatant and charged with war crimes

 

[lordroel]

But he is going to order the CIA to make sure that it cannot happen again, that a CIA agent is caught.

Also what did the Soviet Union responds be with Indonesia executing a Spy.

Don't get caught is lesson one, day one.

And Indonesia didn't execute a Spy. They executed a terrorist convicted of terror bombing civilian targets.

In their eyes i presume, in Langley he will be a star on the CIA Memorial Wall.

 

[SSgtC]

July 4, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

The heads of the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Australian Navy hold a day long meeting to discuss their differing requirements for new fighters and bombers to replace their existing inventory. Both services were in agreement that a long range fighter armed with either infrared or radar guided missiles was a must with a preference for the increased engagement ranges offered by a radar guided missile. Where they differed significantly however was on cost. The Fleet Air Arm, needing far fewer aircraft than the Air Force, preferred buying the best all around fighter on the market and damn the cost. The Air Force of course had to pay much more attention to the cost of the aircraft otherwise they would never get the needed amount of funding to buy enough of them.

By seven o'clock in the evening, Air Marshal Scherger and Vice Admiral Sir Roy Dowling had agreed on a set of broad requirements for a joint procurement program that would suit both services needs. Though neither man especially enjoyed being forced into becoming bedfellows with the other, they had agreed that this was quite possibly the only way to get not only the aircraft they needed, but enough of them as well.

While the two men had initially discussed combining both services fighter and bomber programs together, the decision had ultimately been made to only combine the fighter programs, as the requirements for each respective service's attack aircraft were far too different to make a combined program work to everyone's satisfaction. In the morning, a revised Fighter Specification would be issued along with enquires to the various manufacturers as to their aircraft's suitability to carrier operations.

 

[SSgtC]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

The revised Fighter Specification is issued by the Australian Department of Defence. The new requirements for the fighter demand a minimum speed of Mach 2 with a stated preference for a top speed of Mach 2.25 or greater. A minimum combat radius of three hundred and fifty nautical miles on internal fuel and a "useful" warload with a preference for a combat radius of at least four hundred nautical miles on internal fuel with the ability to extend that to a minimum of five hundred nautical miles on internal and external fuel. Mid-air refueling capability is added to the list of requirements with a stated preference for the probe and drogue refueling method. For external stores all proposed aircraft will be required to carry at least four air-to-air missiles and two drop tanks. The air-to-air missiles must be either infrared guided or radar guided, with a stated preference for a Semi-Active-Radar-Homing missile. All offered fighters must be all weather capable and equipped with a suitable radar. Finally, all offered fighters must be carrier capable or capable of being modified for carrier use.

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

 

[SSgtC]

July 10, 1958
Washington DC, USA

The Argentine Ambassador to the United States formally presents a Letter of Request to purchase an Essex class aircraft carrier, associated spare parts and training. The Letter of Request also specifies that the vessel is to be overhauled to SCB-27C/125A standard. The terms of the proposed deal had been negotiated since January and finalized shortly after Intrepid's visit to Buenos Aires. All that was required now was Congressional approval for the sale.

Though the United States traditionally did not transfer strategic assets to other countries, there was precedent for the sale. In 1910, the United States had built and sold the two Rivadavia class battleships to Argentina. It was hoped by Argentina that this precedent and previous close relationship with the United States would prevail on the Congress to approve the sale.

 

[lordroel]

Though the United States traditionally did not transfer strategic assets to other countries, there was precedent for the sale. In 1910, the United States had built and sold the two Rivadavia class battleships to Argentina. It was hoped by Argentina that this precedent and previous close relationship with the United States would prevail on the Congress to approve the sale.

So the United States considers a Essex to be a strategic asset.

 

[SSgtC]

Though the United States traditionally did not transfer strategic assets to other countries, there was precedent for the sale. In 1910, the United States had built and sold the two Rivadavia class battleships to Argentina. It was hoped by Argentina that this precedent and previous close relationship with the United States would prevail on the Congress to approve the sale.

So the United States considers a Essex to be a strategic asset.

Yes. The United States considered fleet carriers to be strategic assets. Keep in mind that aircraft carriers are capital ships, and capital ships have always been seen as a strategic asset.

 

[lordroel]

Though the United States traditionally did not transfer strategic assets to other countries, there was precedent for the sale. In 1910, the United States had built and sold the two Rivadavia class battleships to Argentina. It was hoped by Argentina that this precedent and previous close relationship with the United States would prevail on the Congress to approve the sale.

So the United States considers a Essex to be a strategic asset.

Yes. The United States considered fleet carriers to be strategic assets. Keep in mind that aircraft carriers are capital ships, and capital ships have always been seen as a strategic asset.

Seems the British never had a problem in selling their carriers.

 

[SSgtC]

Though the United States traditionally did not transfer strategic assets to other countries, there was precedent for the sale. In 1910, the United States had built and sold the two Rivadavia class battleships to Argentina. It was hoped by Argentina that this precedent and previous close relationship with the United States would prevail on the Congress to approve the sale.

So the United States considers a Essex to be a strategic asset.

Yes. The United States considered fleet carriers to be strategic assets. Keep in mind that aircraft carriers are capital ships, and capital ships have always been seen as a strategic asset.

Seems the British never had a problem in selling their carriers.

Their carriers also tendered to be smaller and less capable.

 

[Archibald]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

Wow. I bet on P.1121 here. F-104 already was a killer on land... forget it.

Mirage III landed at 200 kt so not possible either. There was a naval, tailed Mirage but it was a very different beast.

The Hawker is pretty huge however. Although Essex might handle that beast.

I smell the Super Tiger may steal the show in the end.

 

[Archibald]

Found it ! The Mirage V (NOT the OTL Mirage V nor the Mirage III-V !)

A fatter, naval Mirage III with a tail and a "Super Atar" SNECMA never made it to work. 1957.

 

[SSgtC]

Found it ! The Mirage V (NOT the OTL Mirage V nor the Mirage III-V !)

A fatter, naval Mirage III with a tail and a "Super Atar" SNECMA never made it to work. 1957.


View attachment 644162

Ok, so my French varies between cuss words and non existent. Lol. But if I read that right, it was designed for a max speed of Mach 2.16 (I think with a booster engine?) and a normal top speed of Mach 1.78. With a ceiling of 51,000 feet, an approach speed of 121 kts and a catapult launch speed of 140 knots. And an empty weight of 11,777 pounds, a combat weight of 22,170 pounds and a max takeoff weight of 33,950 pounds. Is that about right?

 

[Archibald]

Too lazy to make pounds to kg conversions. *0.454 as usual.

Seems there are three different variants - Atar 9C, M-25 and M-26 "Super Atar(s)" with different thrust levels: 6000, 7500 and 8500 kg of thrust respectively.

Mach 1.78 is Atar 9 alone. Needs a rocket to get to Mach 2.

Mach 2.16 with the Super Atar (and without a rocket - it wouldn't need it).

Consider the rocket as a palliative to the Atar 9 chronical lack of thrust.

The Atar 9 even in the 9K50 variant maxed at 7200 kgp hence the need for a Super Atar here.
For a larger Mirage III with a tail and beefed up naval structure even the 9K50 wouldn't be enough.
When a naval F1 was considered in 1968-74 it always had a M53, never the Atar 9. "Super Atar" here would match M53.

That thing looks like a slim Gloster Javelin with only one engine and an aerodynamicist that wasn't drunk.

 

[Archibald]

I just realized... the performance chart on top of the page is for the Durandal IV M, a SNCASE project. From page 286.
The Mirage characteristics are at the bottom of page 287.
D'OOOH !

 

[GTX]

Hmmm...I wonder if an alternate approach to a Carrier based Mirage III might be found in a development akin to the Milan?

 

[GTX]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

The revised Fighter Specification is issued by the Australian Department of Defence. The new requirements for the fighter demand a minimum speed of Mach 2 with a stated preference for a top speed of Mach 2.25 or greater. A minimum combat radius of three hundred and fifty nautical miles on internal fuel and a "useful" warload with a preference for a combat radius of at least four hundred nautical miles on internal fuel with the ability to extend that to a minimum of five hundred nautical miles on internal and external fuel. Mid-air refueling capability is added to the list of requirements with a stated preference for the probe and drogue refueling method. For external stores all proposed aircraft will be required to carry at least four air-to-air missiles and two drop tanks. The air-to-air missiles must be either infrared guided or radar guided, with a stated preference for a Semi-Active-Radar-Homing missile. All offered fighters must be all weather capable and equipped with a suitable radar. Finally, all offered fighters must be carrier capable or capable of being modified for carrier use.

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

Hmmm...not seeing a match up between the spec and the supposed contenders. A F-4 based solution might make more sense though will also depend upon the carrier planned to be used.

 

[GTX]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

Wow. I bet on P.1121 here.

But would anyone order the P.1121 if it was not also in service/ordered by the UK?

 

[SSgtC]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

The revised Fighter Specification is issued by the Australian Department of Defence. The new requirements for the fighter demand a minimum speed of Mach 2 with a stated preference for a top speed of Mach 2.25 or greater. A minimum combat radius of three hundred and fifty nautical miles on internal fuel and a "useful" warload with a preference for a combat radius of at least four hundred nautical miles on internal fuel with the ability to extend that to a minimum of five hundred nautical miles on internal and external fuel. Mid-air refueling capability is added to the list of requirements with a stated preference for the probe and drogue refueling method. For external stores all proposed aircraft will be required to carry at least four air-to-air missiles and two drop tanks. The air-to-air missiles must be either infrared guided or radar guided, with a stated preference for a Semi-Active-Radar-Homing missile. All offered fighters must be all weather capable and equipped with a suitable radar. Finally, all offered fighters must be carrier capable or capable of being modified for carrier use.

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

Hmmm...not seeing a match up between the spec and the supposed contenders. A F-4 based solution might make more sense though will also depend upon the carrier planned to be used.

Well, there are a few options and they are trying to see if anyone else can come up with something in addition to what's already on offer

 

[Archibald]

Hmmm...I wonder if an alternate approach to a Carrier based Mirage III might be found in a development akin to the Milan?

Hmmm... ten years too late (OTL 1968) and, more annoying - these canards messed the air flow into the intakes.

If Dassault really wanted a naval mach 2 fighter - takes the Etendard IV and adds mices in the intakes and an afterburner to the Atar 8 (= Atar 9 then).

 

[SSgtC]

July 5, 1958
Canberra, Australia Capital Territory, Australia

In concert with the revised specification, feelers are sent out to Hawker, Lockheed and Dassault regarding the possibility of converting the P.1121, F-104C and Mirage III to naval use. The added naval requirement came as a shock to all three manufacturers, though they all offered to study the prospect of modifying their designs for carrier use.

Wow. I bet on P.1121 here.

But would anyone order the P.1121 if it was not also in service/ordered by the UK?

India could be interested. If the price is right, New Zealand might be. Maybe South Africa.

 

[Archibald]

Note that, by 1958, the P.1121 could still be bought in place of the TSR.2... or the Phantom. Or the Jaguar. Also thrice the combat range of the Lightning (not too hard, actually !)

Hawker was no fool: they frantically pushed for some variant of their aircraft to be adopted.

More generally, by 1958 every single airframe large, powerful, and recent enough was pushed for the pre-TSR-2 requirement. Buccaneer and also Sea Vixen (from memory).

Had some sanity prevailed, the Hawker P.1121 from 1958 could have done the job of every single OTL RAF combat aircraft until... well, until the Typhoon. It was the right size for everything.
- tactical strike ? check (no Harrier, no Jaguar)
- interceptor ? check (no Lightning, no Phantom, no Tornado ADV)
- long range strike ? check (no Buccaneer to... Tornado and all the in-between)

Start with big powerful turbojet from the 50's (there was a shitload of them), replace it a decade later by Spey for better fuel economy and longer range.

 

[zen]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

 

[SSgtC]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

Had the P.1121 progressed to flight status, it would have used a De Haviland Gyron turbojet. 20,000 pounds thrust dry and 27,000 with reheat. The Pratt & Whitney J75 would also be an option if an American engine was preferred.

 

[zen]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

Had the P.1121 progressed to flight status, it would have used a De Haviland Gyron turbojet. 20,000 pounds thrust dry and 27,000 with reheat. The Pratt & Whitney J75 would also be an option if an American engine was preferred.

Yes I do know that. Though I suspect Hawkers were hoping to get RB.123 or RB.128.
However to change for a later turbofan, the Spey would be inadequate.

 

[SSgtC]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

Had the P.1121 progressed to flight status, it would have used a De Haviland Gyron turbojet. 20,000 pounds thrust dry and 27,000 with reheat. The Pratt & Whitney J75 would also be an option if an American engine was preferred.

Yes I do know that. Though I suspect Hawkers were hoping to get RB.123 or RB.128.
However to change for a later turbofan, the Spey would be inadequate.

It depends how much later. In the late 70s/early 80s Rolls-Royce and Alison were developing a 25,000+ pound thrust version of the Spey. Of course, by that time, the F100 and F101 in the 30,000+ pound range would be available as well.

 

[zen]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

Had the P.1121 progressed to flight status, it would have used a De Haviland Gyron turbojet. 20,000 pounds thrust dry and 27,000 with reheat. The Pratt & Whitney J75 would also be an option if an American engine was preferred.

Yes I do know that. Though I suspect Hawkers were hoping to get RB.123 or RB.128.
However to change for a later turbofan, the Spey would be inadequate.

It depends how much later. In the late 70s/early 80s Rolls-Royce and Alison were developing a 25,000+ pound thrust version of the Spey. Of course, by that time, the F100 and F101 in the 30,000+ pound range would be available as well.

Pretty much everything that was done with the Spey, could have been done with the Medway. After all the Spey is a scaled down Medway.

 

[SSgtC]

On P1121, certainly various variations were produced. Including a navalised version for the USN!

But it would need a Conway or a Medway, rather than a Spey.....or a straight through Pegasus....

Had the P.1121 progressed to flight status, it would have used a De Haviland Gyron turbojet. 20,000 pounds thrust dry and 27,000 with reheat. The Pratt & Whitney J75 would also be an option if an American engine was preferred.

Yes I do know that. Though I suspect Hawkers were hoping to get RB.123 or RB.128.
However to change for a later turbofan, the Spey would be inadequate.

It depends how much later. In the late 70s/early 80s Rolls-Royce and Alison were developing a 25,000+ pound thrust version of the Spey. Of course, by that time, the F100 and F101 in the 30,000+ pound range would be available as well.

Pretty much everything that was done with the Spey, could have been done with the Medway. After all the Spey is a scaled down Medway.

IIRC, the P.1121 was designed with a large enough engine bay to accept several different engines. So there are several options available should the design be selected.

 

[zen]

A possible export order around 1958, could potentially convince the Board of HSA to continue to fund the P.1121 prototype.
It might, being an Australian order, alter the views in the UK government about ordering this.
As I've said elsewhere more than once, the P.1121 is a better basis for a FAW successor to the Javelin than the Lightning, and certain variations are more suited to the MRI mission IF VTOL is removed from the requirements. Such that had this progressed, it becomes an option after the NMBR.3 dissolves into absurdity with it's 'joint' win.
Not really TSR.2 range, but certainly competitive with AFVG-MRCA, albeit lacking in some ways without a VG wing (but cheaper).

 

[Archibald]

Another bizarre and frustrating contrast between 1959 France aeronautics and 1959 Britain aeronautics.

Gyron Conway Medway Olympus RB.122: you british had tons of advanced engines. And few if none airframes left to put around them.

While France... had Leduc and Nord and Sud and Breguet and Dassault prototypes all over the place yet SNECMA was unable to provide anything else than Atar 9.
An embarassment of riches, really.

Note that for all Dassault complaining the anaemic thrust of the Atar necessarily drove size weight performance and... cost, downwards.

The irony: when the Atar monopoly was finally breached in the 60's - through TF306 - the Mirages F2 F3 G instantly grew... and were rejected for the F1. With the Atar. ROTFL.

Lesson for Great Britain: keep Avon RB.146 only, screw any other engine for 20 years and design every single aircraft until Typhoon around it.

 

[SSgtC]

A possible export order around 1958, could potentially convince the Board of HSA to continue to fund the P.1121 prototype.
It might, being an Australian order, alter the views in the UK government about ordering this.
As I've said elsewhere more than once, the P.1121 is a better basis for a FAW successor to the Javelin than the Lightning, and certain variations are more suited to the MRI mission IF VTOL is removed from the requirements. Such that had this progressed, it becomes an option after the NMBR.3 dissolves into absurdity with it's 'joint' win.
Not really TSR.2 range, but certainly competitive with AFVG-MRCA, albeit lacking in some ways without a VG wing (but cheaper).

I've often heard the P.1121 referred to as the British Phantom. It's a shame that the aircraft was never developed fully. Though one area that the UK lagged behind was the development of radar guided missiles. They had the right idea, going for pulse doppler with Red Hebe, but it was an idea ahead of its time. The tech wasn't there yet.

 

[Archibald]

A possible export order around 1958, could potentially convince the Board of HSA to continue to fund the P.1121 prototype.
It might, being an Australian order, alter the views in the UK government about ordering this.
As I've said elsewhere more than once, the P.1121 is a better basis for a FAW successor to the Javelin than the Lightning, and certain variations are more suited to the MRI mission IF VTOL is removed from the requirements. Such that had this progressed, it becomes an option after the NMBR.3 dissolves into absurdity with it's 'joint' win.
Not really TSR.2 range, but certainly competitive with AFVG-MRCA, albeit lacking in some ways without a VG wing (but cheaper).

I've often heard the P.1121 referred to as the British Phantom. It's a shame that the aircraft was never developed fully. Though one area that the UK lagged behind was the development of radar guided missiles. They had the right idea, going for pulse doppler with Red Hebe, but it was an idea ahead of its time. The tech wasn't there yet.

Make no mistake: Thompson CSF, Cyrano radars, R530 missiles somewhat lagged behind US counterparts. Well, this did not prevented the Mirage III from breaking the bank, particularly with the IDF/AF...

 

[zen]

A possible export order around 1958, could potentially convince the Board of HSA to continue to fund the P.1121 prototype.
It might, being an Australian order, alter the views in the UK government about ordering this.
As I've said elsewhere more than once, the P.1121 is a better basis for a FAW successor to the Javelin than the Lightning, and certain variations are more suited to the MRI mission IF VTOL is removed from the requirements. Such that had this progressed, it becomes an option after the NMBR.3 dissolves into absurdity with it's 'joint' win.
Not really TSR.2 range, but certainly competitive with AFVG-MRCA, albeit lacking in some ways without a VG wing (but cheaper).

I've often heard the P.1121 referred to as the British Phantom. It's a shame that the aircraft was never developed fully. Though one area that the UK lagged behind was the development of radar guided missiles. They had the right idea, going for pulse doppler with Red Hebe, but it was an idea ahead of its time. The tech wasn't there yet.

It's sort of between an F4 and a F104, a sort of F105 Thunderchief-like machine.
It was subject to criticism for being a worse projected performance than the P1103 from which it's derived. But that measure was against F.155 which is a extreme set of requirements.
It did have issues. Mostly resolve-able.
The solution to the missile issue was going monopulse, and I-band. While they had hopes of a J-band AI.18 development. HSA had hopes of a Fairey AAM....
But even with AI.23, the volume potentially available, would have made fitting illuminator equipment possible.