I suppose another option might be if the Convair XP5Y-1 were to have entered service or perhaps they and/or the R3Y Tradewinds were to be re-engined with something such as T56s?

Or alternatively, the Martin P7M SubMaster making it into operations either instead of or alongside the P-3 Orion...
I think the earlier variants of the T56 would result in a net power decrease; but something like the T34 might be a good drop in replacement.
 
February 11, 1959
Over Western New Guinea


Just after midnight, a Dutch Lockheed P2V-7B Neptune on a maritime recconasinse patrol spoted three Indonesian Navy motor torpedo boats in Vlakke Hoek Bay. Deciding this was the attack they were waiting for, the reconnaissance aircraft breaks radio silence and calls in the contact. Thirty seconds after the sighting report is acknowledged, a MiG-19 in Indonesian Air Force markings but flown by Colonel Sutyagin of the Soviet Air Force, launches a Kaliningrad K-5 air-to-air missile at the Dutch Neptune. The beam riding missile is not known for it's accuracy and has a relatively short range, but it is suitable for the mission. From a range of only two kilometers, the missile leaps off the launch rail and covers the distance to the Dutch patrol plane in less than five seconds and detonates, destroying the starboard engine and starting a fire on the wing. Two members of the crew manage to bail out before the starboard wing shears off and the Neptune cartwheels into the sea.

While ground based radar had seen the Indonesian fighters in the air, intercepts and high speed passes by Indonesian MiGs of Dutch patrol aircraft had become commonplace and little note was made of the fighters except to pass along a warning that the Indonesians were up to their usual tricks again. In addition to the false sense of security that Indonesia had instilled into the Dutch Air Force over the previous months, Dutch military intelligence had completely missed Indonesia acquiring radar guided missiles. The launch of the beam riding missile from over a mile behind their plane had caught everyone off guard.

Though Dutch Intelligence had missed the presence of Soviet supplied air-to-air missiles, the Indonesians had just informed everyone of their existence. In the worst way possible.
 
February 11, 1959
Vlakke Hoek Bay


The three Indonesian MTBs turn back for base upon seeing the flash from the exploding missile above them. The main part of their mission complete, all three boats go to full power and begin to race to safety, aiming to exit the bay before the Dutch Navy can respond with heavier forces.

Unfortunately for them, two Dutch frigates were already approaching, having been kept nearby and at a high state of readiness in order to respond to just such an act of aggression by Indonesia. Fortunately for the Indonesians, they had planned for this eventuality and quickly implemented their contingency plans. As the first radio calls go out from the Indonesian torpedo boats to activate the second phase of their plans, splashes begin to surround them as the Dutch frigates open fire on them. Weaving back and forth and chasing the splashes, the Indonesian crews run for their lives while praying that their superior's schemes would actually work.

From out of the night sky, six MiG-17s dove down on the frigates. Armed with sixteen S-5 57mm rockets each, the MiGs pose a real threat to the Dutch frigates. Responding to the air threat, and with the torpedo boats seemingly running for their lives, the Dutch switch over their ammunition from High Explosive to VT-Frag and begin to swivel their guns skyward to try and engage the diving MiGs before they can launch their own attack. But time is not on their side.

Firing from a range of approximately one and a half miles away, the MiGs begin to ripple fire their rockets. Ninety-one of the ninety-six unguided rockets impact harmlessly in the waters of the bay. Five however, find steel. Armed with high-explosive fragmentation warheads, the rockets largely cause only superficial damage to the ships, though several exposed gun crews on both ships are laid low as the hot steel fragments scythe through them. One rocket however lands a perfect golden BB on the Eversteen. Crashing through one of the bridge windows, the rocket slams into the deck and triggers the impact fuse. The resulting blast destroys the bridge and sends hot steel ripping through the bridge crew, killing everyone on the bridge and sending the Eversteen into a slow right turn.

With fires breaking out on the stricken Dutch frigate, her damage control parties rush to contain the flames. From her shattered bridge windows, smoke billows into the inky night sky. More dangerously, the Eversteen had been the lead ship of the formation and the squadron flagship. The loss of her bridge crew and resulting confusion as she slowly began to circle to starboard, throws the small force into chaos. The reappearance of the Indonesian torpedo boats goes unnoticed in the chaos.

The moment the Dutch shells stopped splashing into the sea around them, the fleeing torpedo boats turned and began closing the range to the Dutch frigates. As the first 4.7" rounds were fired at the Indonesian fighters from HNLMS Eversteen and Kortenaer, the Motor Torpedo Boats KRI Matjan Tutul and Harimau launched four torpedos each, with each of the torpedo boats targeting one of the frigates. The flames from the exploding rockets provided the Indonesian crews marvelous aiming points in the dark night. The third boat in the squadron, KRI Matjan Kumbang is held in reserve to finish off any cripples.

Their mission of distracting the Dutch frigates done, the Indonesian MiGs break off and run from the frigates before they can find the range and fill the sky with steel. With their attention elsewhere, the Dutch fail to notice the approaching torpedos until it was too late. On the Eversteen, the ship had just been brought back under control by damage control parties manning the rudder room. They had just brought the ship out of her starboard circle and it was this that doomed her as the first Indonesian torpedo slammed into her hull abreast her engineering spaces and detonated. For the Dutch however, luck was at least partially on their side. The poor shooting and lax maintenance by the Indonesians meant that of the other seven torpedos launched, six failed to hit the two frigates and the last failed to detonate upon striking the Kortenaer.

Komodor Yos Sudarso, deciding that discretion is the better part of valor now that a great victory had been won, orders the Kumbang not to engage as the undamaged Dutch ship would now be out for blood. Turning out of the bay, the three torpedo boats race for the open sea and home. Their people would have something to celebrate in the morning and the damn Dutch would know that Indonesia would not be ordered about by anyone.

Within the Bay, the Kortenaer was doing everything she could to assist her stricken sister. But the damage to the seventeen-hundred ton ship was severe. Though the Eversteen would eventually be lost, her crew was rescued with the exception of 38 sailors who were killed when the torpedo and rockets struck. Also rescued were the two aircrew who had bailed out of their destroyed Neptune. As Kortenaer withdrew from the area, everyone involved in the action knew, the New Guinea crises had just escalated.
 
February 11, 1959
Vlakke Hoek Bay


The three Indonesian MTBs turn back for base upon seeing the flash from the exploding missile above them. The main part of their mission complete, all three boats go to full power and begin to race to safety, aiming to exit the bay before the Dutch Navy can respond with heavier forces.

Unfortunately for them, two Dutch frigates were already approaching, having been kept nearby and at a high state of readiness in order to respond to just such an act of aggression by Indonesia. Fortunately for the Indonesians, they had planned for this eventuality and quickly implemented their contingency plans. As the first radio calls go out from the Indonesian torpedo boats to activate the second phase of their plans, splashes begin to surround them as the Dutch frigates open fire on them. Weaving back and forth and chasing the splashes, the Indonesian crews run for their lives while praying that their superior's schemes would actually work.

From out of the night sky, six MiG-17s dove down on the frigates. Armed with sixteen S-5 57mm rockets each, the MiGs pose a real threat to the Dutch frigates. Responding to the air threat, and with the torpedo boats seemingly running for their lives, the Dutch switch over their ammunition from High Explosive to VT-Frag and begin to swivel their guns skyward to try and engage the diving MiGs before they can launch their own attack. But time is not on their side.

Firing from a range of approximately one and a half miles away, the MiGs begin to ripple fire their rockets. Ninety-one of the ninety-six unguided rockets impact harmlessly in the waters of the bay. Five however, find steel. Armed with high-explosive fragmentation warheads, the rockets largely cause only superficial damage to the ships, though several exposed gun crews on both ships are laid low as the hot steel fragments scythe through them. One rocket however lands a perfect golden BB on the Eversteen. Crashing through one of the bridge windows, the rocket slams into the deck and triggers the impact fuse. The resulting blast destroys the bridge and sends hot steel ripping through the bridge crew, killing everyone on the bridge and sending the Eversteen into a slow right turn.

With fires breaking out on the stricken Dutch frigate, her damage control parties rush to contain the flames. From her shattered bridge windows, smoke billows into the inky night sky. More dangerously, the Eversteen had been the lead ship of the formation and the squadron flagship. The loss of her bridge crew and resulting confusion as she slowly began to circle to starboard, throws the small force into chaos. The reappearance of the Indonesian torpedo boats goes unnoticed in the chaos.

The moment the Dutch shells stopped splashing into the sea around them, the fleeing torpedo boats turned and began closing the range to the Dutch frigates. As the first 4.7" rounds were fired at the Indonesian fighters from HNLMS Eversteen and Kortenaer, the Motor Torpedo Boats KRI Matjan Tutul and Harimau launched four torpedos each, with each of the torpedo boats targeting one of the frigates. The flames from the exploding rockets provided the Indonesian crews marvelous aiming points in the dark night. The third boat in the squadron, KRI Matjan Kumbang is held in reserve to finish off any cripples.

Their mission of distracting the Dutch frigates done, the Indonesian MiGs break off and run from the frigates before they can find the range and fill the sky with steel. With their attention elsewhere, the Dutch fail to notice the approaching torpedos until it was too late. On the Eversteen, the ship had just been brought back under control by damage control parties manning the rudder room. They had just brought the ship out of her starboard circle and it was this that doomed her as the first Indonesian torpedo slammed into her hull abreast her engineering spaces and detonated. For the Dutch however, luck was at least partially on their side. The poor shooting and lax maintenance by the Indonesians meant that of the other seven torpedos launched, six failed to hit the two frigates and the last failed to detonate upon striking the Kortenaer.

Komodor Yos Sudarso, deciding that discretion is the better part of valor now that a great victory had been won, orders the Kumbang not to engage as the undamaged Dutch ship would now be out for blood. Turning out of the bay, the three torpedo boats race for the open sea and home. Their people would have something to celebrate in the morning and the damn Dutch would know that Indonesia would not be ordered about by anyone.

Within the Bay, the Kortenaer was doing everything she could to assist her stricken sister. But the damage to the seventeen-hundred ton ship was severe. Though the Eversteen would eventually be lost, her crew was rescued with the exception of 38 sailors who were killed when the torpedo and rockets struck. Also rescued were the two aircrew who had bailed out of their destroyed Neptune. As Kortenaer withdrew from the area, everyone involved in the action knew, the New Guinea crises had just escalated.

So the Battle of Arafura Sea/Battle of Vlakke Hoek of OTL is a Indonesia victory instead of a Dutch victory
 
So the Battle of Arafura Sea/Battle of Vlakke Hoek of OTL is a Indonesia victory instead of a Dutch victory
Yup. And a one sided victory to boot. The Dutch lost a frigate and almost 40 men (plus more wounded) while the Indonesians didn't lose a single soul
 
So the Battle of Arafura Sea/Battle of Vlakke Hoek of OTL is a Indonesia victory instead of a Dutch victory
Yup. And a one sided victory to boot. The Dutch lost a frigate and almost 40 men (plus more wounded) while the Indonesians didn't lose a single soul

Is 1 more the Indonesians lost in the OTL battle,

Question, where the 3 Indonesian MTBs from the Jaguar-class fast attack craft like OTL ore where they Soviet desgined.
 
So the Battle of Arafura Sea/Battle of Vlakke Hoek of OTL is a Indonesia victory instead of a Dutch victory
Yup. And a one sided victory to boot. The Dutch lost a frigate and almost 40 men (plus more wounded) while the Indonesians didn't lose a single soul

Is 1 more the Indonesians lost in the OTL battle,

Question, where the 3 Indonesian MTBs from the Jaguar-class fast attack craft like OTL ore where they Soviet desgined.
To the best of my knowledge, they would be Jaguar Class, as I believe Indonesia acquired them before everything went to hell
 
... and so it began. Massive amount of fecal matter have just hit the rotating machine.

One Neptune and one destroyer, down for the count. Those MiGs have made quite... a splash (runs for cover).
To be fair, the MiGs didn't kill the destroyer (downgraded to a frigate at this point). The MiGs sowed confusion and caused the loss of command and control through a very lucky hit. What killed the ship was taking a torpedo in engineering that knocked out the power and the pumps.
 
... and so it began. Massive amount of fecal matter have just hit the rotating machine.

One Neptune and one destroyer, down for the count. Those MiGs have made quite... a splash (runs for cover).
To be fair, the MiGs didn't kill the destroyer (downgraded to a frigate at this point). The MiGs sowed confusion and caused the loss of command and control through a very lucky hit. What killed the ship was taking a torpedo in engineering that knocked out the power and the pumps.
If she remains afloat she needs to get to a drydock, the closest friendly one would be in Australia i guess.
 
... and so it began. Massive amount of fecal matter have just hit the rotating machine.

One Neptune and one destroyer, down for the count. Those MiGs have made quite... a splash (runs for cover).
To be fair, the MiGs didn't kill the destroyer (downgraded to a frigate at this point). The MiGs sowed confusion and caused the loss of command and control through a very lucky hit. What killed the ship was taking a torpedo in engineering that knocked out the power and the pumps.
If she remains afloat she needs to get to a drydock, the closest friendly one would be in Australia i guess.
She ate a 21" torpedo. She's on the bottom. The S class were only 1,700 tons standard displacement. Depending on the exact torpedo, she got slammed underwater by an 800+ pound warhead. That's enough to cripple a cruiser. On a ship under 2,000 tons? They're lucky anyone survived
 
... and so it began. Massive amount of fecal matter have just hit the rotating machine.

One Neptune and one destroyer, down for the count. Those MiGs have made quite... a splash (runs for cover).
To be fair, the MiGs didn't kill the destroyer (downgraded to a frigate at this point). The MiGs sowed confusion and caused the loss of command and control through a very lucky hit. What killed the ship was taking a torpedo in engineering that knocked out the power and the pumps.
If she remains afloat she needs to get to a drydock, the closest friendly one would be in Australia i guess.
She ate a 21" torpedo. She's on the bottom. The S class were only 1,700 tons standard displacement. Depending on the exact torpedo, she got slammed underwater by an 800+ pound warhead. That's enough to cripple a cruiser. On a ship under 2,000 tons? They're lucky anyone survived

So for a second time in less then 25 years a Evertsen has been sunk, not a good name for any future ship the Netherlands might commission.
 
So for a second time in less then 25 years a Evertsen has been sunk, not a good name for any future ship the Netherlands might commission
Yeah, you probably won't see another Eversteen in the Dutch Navy after this. That's likely to be regarded as a cursed name
 
When do the Dutch SeaMasters show up and put an end to this?! ;)

Now that's idea, they could recycle Doorman as a tender (as planned by the USN with the Commencement bay "jeep carriers" at the time).
 
Probably around the same time that "Australian" B-47s show up

Hey, we find ourselves in a strange world where Nixon and Dulles pressed Ike for employing artificial sunshine in French Indochina from B-29's in French markings just a couple short years ago... If Churchill would have gone to bat for the French in Indochina, who knows what might have happened?

And what's a nuclear armed seaplane or six among friends? Haha
 
I'm wondering if we could see some form of earlier Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) result in this scenario?
 
I'm wondering if we could see some form of earlier Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) result in this scenario?
Probably not. At the moment, Malaysia doesn't exist. It's still the Federation of Malaya while Singapore, North Borneo and Sarawak are all still Crown Colonies. A more effective and longer lasting SEATO is a more likely outcome.
 
Sooo wet-leased B-47s and F-102s with still wet Kangroos painted on, while the USN “evaluates” their P6M-2s out of Darwin?
 
Probably around the same time that "Australian" B-47s show up

Hey, we find ourselves in a strange world where Nixon and Dulles pressed Ike for employing artificial sunshine in French Indochina from B-29's in French markings just a couple short years ago... If Churchill would have gone to bat for the French in Indochina, who knows what might have happened?
A yes Operation Vulture, but it was resident Eisenhower and not Nixon.
 
A yes Operation Vulture, but it was resident Eisenhower and not Nixon.


Hey, we find ourselves in a strange world where Nixon and Dulles pressed Ike for employing artificial sunshine in French Indochina from B-29's in French markings just a couple short years ago... If Churchill would have gone to bat for the French in Indochina, who knows what might have happened?
 
Probably around the same time that "Australian" B-47s show up

Hey, we find ourselves in a strange world where Nixon and Dulles pressed Ike for employing artificial sunshine in French Indochina from B-29's in French markings just a couple short years ago... If Churchill would have gone to bat for the French in Indochina, who knows what might have happened?
A yes Operation Vulture, but it was resident Eisenhower and not Nixon.

814R4hH8z1L.jpg



g6ueuokt8n.jpg
 
Probably around the same time that "Australian" B-47s show up

Hey, we find ourselves in a strange world where Nixon and Dulles pressed Ike for employing artificial sunshine in French Indochina from B-29's in French markings just a couple short years ago... If Churchill would have gone to bat for the French in Indochina, who knows what might have happened?
A yes Operation Vulture, but it was resident Eisenhower and not Nixon.

814R4hH8z1L.jpg



g6ueuokt8n.jpg

The French made a comic of this, great.
 
Wonder if the Netherlands will start looking at getting some planes that can take the fight to Indonesia, and getting them quickly. Canberras?
 
Buccaneers ! which, incidentally, would need Centaurs or Essex carriers, rather than Karel Doorman...
(btw, considering that carrier name and the fate of the man it was named from, I would not dare to risk it close from Indonesia...)
 
Buccaneers ! which, incidentally, would need Centaurs or Essex carriers, rather than Karel Doorman...
(btw, considering that carrier name and the fate of the man it was named from, I would not dare to risk it close from Indonesia...)
I was thinking more about the RNethAF than the Navy. Might be a bit early for the Bucc too.
 
The only way to get aircraft in theater quickly is to buy aircraft already in theater. Which means buying from UK, AUS or NZ stocks. The UK has three Venom squadrons in the theater, Australia has CAC Sabres and New Zealand has a handful of Vampires. Problem is, how do you convince any of them to sell them to you? Especially when they may need the equipment to defend their own territory
 
I should also add that the US 5th Air Force has F-100s in Japan and the 13th Air Force in the Philippines has two squadrons of F-86s. Really, early 59 was the perfect time to attack for Indonesia. They had, at worst, parity with the West in terms of equipment and in some cases, clear superiority.
 
So where was the HNLMS Karel Doorman at this stage? How quickly might it get an updated airwing - perhaps A-4s?

RNLAFA-4GSKYHAWK04_zps0cc56427.jpg


How quickly could some of the RNLAF aircraft be transported into theatre - at the time they had Hawker Hunter Mk.4/6s, North American F-86K Sabres, Republic F-84F Thunderstreak and RF-84F Thunderflash.
 
So where was the HNLMS Karel Doorman at this stage? How quickly might it get an updated airwing - perhaps A-4s?

RNLAFA-4GSKYHAWK04_zps0cc56427.jpg


How quickly could some of the RNLAF aircraft be transported into theatre - at the time they had Hawker Hunter Mk.4/6s, North American F-86K Sabres, Republic F-84F Thunderstreak and RF-84F Thunderflash.
Doorman is in the Netherlands preparing for a goodwill tour of the United States. I don't think she could handle Skyhawks in a strike role. Even Melbourne could only handle them in a fighter configuration. Her Air Wing is currently made up of TBF Avengers and Hawker Sea Hawks
 
Maybe the Dutch can make do with the second -hand Furies for the Doorman. FJ-2's are being phased out of Marine reserve units by this time. FJ-3 is heading to reserve units while the FJ-4 is still being delivered.

Much faster and longer legged than the Sea Hawk.
 
I should also add that the US 5th Air Force has F-100s in Japan and the 13th Air Force in the Philippines has two squadrons of F-86s. Really, early 59 was the perfect time to attack for Indonesia. They had, at worst, parity with the West in terms of equipment and in some cases, clear superiority.
TAC also had their Composite Air Strike Force under the Nineteenth Air Force, could self deploy anywhere needed and carried 30 days worth of supplies.

This Air University Thesis has some insight to it.
 
They could probably get some FJ-2s if they wanted them, but how long would it take for them to be delivered? And just looking at the rough specs, the Sea Hawks they already have are better options since they can be used in the ground attack role while the Fury couldn't (at least until the FJ-4)
 
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