August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.
That's why it's an outside shot. Realistically, it will be 1962 at least before the RAN commissions a new carrier. So a few more years to let things change. And even if they did get a carrier, it would likely be restricted to ASW service only with maybe a single flight of anti-snooper fighters for self defense.
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Concurrently with the rejection messages, requests are delivered to Grumman, McDonnell and Vought asking for their final, best proposals for the F11F-1F, F4H-1 and F8U-3 fighters. Responses are required no latter than August thirty-first.
I can imagine the response from the teams: Great a new RFP! Oh sh*t, only 3wks to respond!!!! Great, there goes the rest of the month including weekends and nights.
 
I'm thinking a combined purchase of Phantoms for the fighter requirements plus a batch of Vigilantes will do nicely thank you
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Concurrently with the rejection messages, requests are delivered to Grumman, McDonnell and Vought asking for their final, best proposals for the F11F-1F, F4H-1 and F8U-3 fighters. Responses are required no latter than August thirty-first.
I can imagine the response from the teams: Great a new RFP! Oh sh*t, only 3wks to respond!!!! Great, there goes the rest of the month including weekends and nights.
Lol! Maybe not so bad. The RAAF and the FAA have had the original proposals since February. The final, best offers have more to do with pricing and after sale support with only minor technical tweaks. Particularly in the case of the Phantom II and the Crusader III as they are in the middle of a fly-off for the USN in California and both designs were being refined as they were put through their paces.

On a side note, I was reading in a copy of Aeroplane Icons that the F-4 came within a hair's breadth of being named the F4H Satan. Other proposed names were Mithras and Warlock. McDonnell employees, the Navy, pretty much everyone wanted to name the new plane Satan. It was James McDonnell himself who decided on the Phantom II name. And technically, I could still name it that if I wanted. It wasn't named Phantom II until July 2, 1959. In that regard, I made a mistake earlier in listing the F4H-1 as the Phantom in the proposals. Until July, 1959 it was simply the F4H.
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.

I remember seeing, on this very forum, plans for Japanese carriers in the early 60's...
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.

I remember seeing, on this very forum, plans for Japanese carriers in the early 60's...
It wouldn't surprise me. As the Red Navy developed more and more capable ships and submarines, the USN was very keen on Japan being able to defend themselves and contribute to regional security. Particularly in regards to ASW operations
 
"Originally, the Coastal Safety Force and its successor, the JMSDF, had intended to enable its fleet aviation operating capability. In 1960, the Defense Agency planned to construct one helicopter carrier (CVH) with the Second Defense Build-up Plan, but this project was shelved and finally cancelled because the JMSDF changed their plan to dispersing its fleet aviation assets among destroyers, not concentrating in few helicopter carrier."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruna-class_destroyer
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.

I remember seeing, on this very forum, plans for Japanese carriers in the early 60's...
 
August 15, 1958
Langley, Virginia, USA


The Australian Secret Information Service had passed on photographs to the Central Intelligence Agency showing MiG-19 fighters and Tu-16 strategic bombers in Indonesian Air Force markings. Their own sources had hinted that the Indonesians were rapidly building up a modern and lavishly equipped air force, but the CIA had assumed that they were referring the MiG-17s and Il-28s they had already purchased. However these photographs showed that Indonesia was acquiring much more serious and capable hardware. This development could have serious destabilizing effects on the region. And it would certainly have repercussions on the Navy. They were even now formulating their fleet plan for the coming years and this could factor heavily into their thinking.

The decision was made pass the report on to the Navy and to the 5th Air Force based in Japan. Hopefully they would be able to make use of the report should they ever be called into combat against Indonesia, a possibility that was looking more likely by the day given the deteriorating relations between Washington and Jakarta.
 
September 1, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


The final proposals from Grumman, McDonnell and Vought sat on the desk of Sir Philip McBride, KCMG. They were all solid, well thought out offers for three very different aircraft. It would take some time and a great deal of technical knowledge to select the best option of the three remaining fighters. While he would give the proposals their due consideration, the real nuts and bolts considerations would be done by professionals within his Ministry.

On the top of the stack was the proposal from Grumman. They were offering a modified version of their F11F Tiger. In the proposal, they had dubbed the aircraft the F11F-2. It would differ from the baseline F11F-1 in having an extended fuselage, wing root fillets, an AN/APS-67 radar to give the aircraft a limited all weather capability and a J79-GE-3 engine. Additionally, they proposed to equip the aircraft with a Boundary Layer Control system to enable it to operate off the Melbourne. The aircraft would be capable of carrying up to four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder I infrared homing missiles. There would also be four underwing hardpoints from which bombs and unguided rockets or drop tanks could be hung. The aircraft would be capable of flying at mach 2.04 which made it, by far, the slowest of the three proposed aircraft. It was also the shortest ranged of the three, with only a 250nm combat radius with four sidewinders and full internal fuel. With two 150 US gallon drop tanks and two sidewinders, it was capable of extending it's combat radius to 420nm. Though it did have a combat range of 784nm with four sidewinders or 1,146nm with two sidewinders and two drop tanks. The Super Tiger was however the cheapest of the three proposals with an estimated cost of $925,000 USD each for a production run of 140 aircraft. The cost per flight hour was also the lowest of any of the proposals at just $1,179 US dollars per flight hour including maintenance costs.

The next proposal was from McDonnell for their F4H fighter bomber. Of the three aircraft, it promised to carry the heaviest warload. It was designed to carry up to eight air-to-air missiles, four AAM-N-6 Sparrow III semi-active radar homing missiles and four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder infrared homing missiles. The fighter also promised to be as capable a bomber as it was a fighter, being able to carry over 6,000 pounds of bombs on strike missions. With its twin J79-GE-8 engines, McDonnell believed that the F4H-1 would be capable of speeds up to mach 2.23. The design also promised the lowest pilot workload of the three designs with the F4H having a second crewman to operate the fighter's weapons systems and radar, leaving the pilot free to fly and fight the plane. The addition of the second crewman promised to make the design the most "future proof" of the three designs.

On internal fuel and with eight air-to-air missiles, it was projected to have a 404nm combat radius and a combat range of 1,122nm. With the addition of a 600 US gallon external fuel tank it was projected to have a combat radius of 495nm and a combat range of 1,301nm. If only four Sparrow III missiles were carried, the combat radius was extended to 410nm on internal fuel and 756nm if a 600 US gallon drop tank was carried along with two wing mounted 370 US gallon drop tanks. In that configuration, the combat range was increased to 1,803nm. Unlike the F11F proposal from Grumman, the F4H would not be able to operate from the deck of Melbourne under any conditions and would require the purchase of a new aircraft carrier for the Royal Australian Navy. When combined with the proposed purchase price and operating cost of the aircraft and the cost for a replacement aircraft carrier, the proposed aircraft from McDonnell was by far the most expensive. With a purchase price of $1,743,000 US dollars each for a production run of 140 aircraft it was far and away the most costly proposal. It also had the highest cost per flight hour at $1,347 US dollars per flight hour, including maintenance costs. Compared to the F11F, the F4H would cost the government some $114 million US dollars more to purchase and some $8 million US dollars more per year to operate based on 350 flying hours per year, per aircraft.

The final aircraft that was proposed was the Vought F8U-3E Crusader III, referred to as the Super Crusader by the US Navy and Vought. In terms of performance, the Crusader III was head and shoulders above the other two offered aircraft. With a demonstrated top speed of mach 2.39 and a promised top speed of mach 2.6 once a new windscreen was fitted replacing the acrylic one, it was easily the fastest of the three fighters. In terms of maneuverability, it showed it's heritage as being the "last of the gunfighters." In their fly off in California, the United States Navy was finding out that the Crusader III could fly literal rings around the F4H. It also boasted a combat radius of 539nm on internal fuel while armed with three AAM-N-6 Sparrow III missiles and four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder I missiles. If armed with only the three Sparrow missiles, that was increased to 562nm. It also laid claim to a combat range of 1,652 and 1,755nm respectively. With the addition of two wing mounted 327 US gallon drop tanks, the Crusader III's already impressive range climbed to 645nm with a full load of seven air-to-air missiles. With only the Sparrows carried, it would increase to 674nm. With the drop tanks carried, the Crusader laid claim to a combat range of 1,982nm while carrying seven air-to-air missiles. If only the three Sparrow missiles were carried, that would increase to 2,106nm. That was enough range to escort a strike all the way to Jakarta from Broom and almost halfway back, which would drastically decrease the need for air-to-air refueling assets.

In the ground attack role, the Vought design would include a semisubmerged hardpoint between the main landing gear that would be capable of carrying a 2,000 bomb along with two underwing hardpoints also capable of carrying a 2,000 pound bomb each or up to four 500 pound bombs on a custom ejector rack. The F4H was the more capable attack aircraft by several hundred pounds and was able to carry a large variety of ordinance as the fuselage hardpoint on the Crusader III would only be able to carry a single bomb. But for any expected engagement, the Crusader and F4H would be very evenly matched.

In the negative side of the column was the drastically higher pilot workload when compared the the Super Tiger and the F4H. Being responsible to both fly and fight the aircraft and monitor the radar and maintain lock on to the targeted aircraft there were serious concerns raised about the ability of the pilot to maintain situational awareness and conduct a successful intercept of enemy bombers and fighters. Like the F4H-1, the Crusader III would also be totally unable to operate from the Melbourne, once again necessitating the acquisition of a new carrier to enable the FAA to operate the new fighter. And this was despite the aircraft's significantly lower operating weight and the presence of a boundary layer control system compared to the F4H.

In the end, the decision would likely come down to a combination of price and performance, with a greater emphasis placed on cost. And it was here that the Crusader III shone. With a purchase price of only $1,447,000 US dollars, the hot new fighter from Vought was some twenty-seven percent cheaper than the competing design from McDonnell. Purchasing the Crusader III would save the government over $41 million US dollars. Conversely, an additional twenty-eight aircraft could be purchased for the same price as 140 F4Hs. Operating costs too were lower, with the Crusader III costing only $1,223 US dollars per flight hour including maintenance costs. That worked out to a savings of roughly $6 million US dollars a year for 140 aircraft flying 350 hours each every year when compared to the F4H. Compared to the F11F, it was only about $50 US dollars more per hour and worked out to an extra $2 million US dollars a year. Finding an extra two million dollars a year was much easier than finding an extra eight million in the opinion of Sir Phillip.

From a pure cost standpoint, Sir Phillip far preferred the F11F-2 Super Tiger over the other two options. But when balanced against the significantly higher capabilities of the Crusader III and F4H, he knew the decision would come down to one of those aircraft barring Parliament balking at purchasing a new carrier. Writing down his thoughts on all three aircraft in a memo for the Air Force and Fleet Air Arm to review, he placed the proposals in his outbox and moved on to the next item on his agenda.
 
Authors Note on the Preceding Update

Phew! This was, by far, my longest update in this Timeline. It also contains quite a large info dump on the specifications of the three proposed fighters. I've tried to make the numbers as accurate as possible. All of the range figures are based on the Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheets found on the Alternate Wars website. For the purchase cost, I've had to find the closest figures I could. For the F11F, the number is based on the reported cost at the time the contract was originally awarded to Grumman for the F11F-1. The proposed F11F-2 would probably cost more compared to the baseline Tiger, but in this case I assumed that Grumman would be fairly desperate for a sale and willing to take a small loss if it led to more orders later. The cost for the F4H-1 is based on the cost of an F-4C in 1965 and adjusted downward to compensate for inflation using an online inflation calculator. Likewise the data on the cost per flight hour was found on the same website and is based on the cost per flight hour of the F-4C and adjusted downwards for inflation. For the Super Crusader, the numbers are harder to come by. The best information I was able to find was in a copy of the Aeroplane Icons focusing on the Phantom that stated the first 87 F8U-3s would cost 27% less than the first 87 F4H-1s. For the cost per flight hour, well, that data is nonexistent. At least it is not existent in publicly accessible sources. So I based it on the cost per flight hour of the F-105D in 1973 and adjusted it downwards for inflation. I made the decision to use the F-105D costs per flight hour as both aircraft used the same Pratt & Whitney J75 engine. The costs per hour for the Crusader III would likely be a bit lower as it was a significantly lighter and more aerodynamic aircraft. But I went with the higher cost so it wouldn't seem like I was giving one aircraft a massive advantage unfairly. In actuality, the cost would probably be closer to the F-106 Delta Dart than the F-105 Thunderchief, but... The costs per flight hour for the F11F are honestly a best guess. The oldest reports I can find date from the 1970s, long after the Tiger had left service. So I based it on the rough cost per flight hour of the F-104 Starfighter. Both aircraft filled nearly identical roles and used nearly identical equipment, so the numbers should at least be in the same ballpark. Though if anyone has a more accurate source and number, I would be extraordinarily grateful for it and more than happy to edit as needed.
 
So a variant design of F8U-III was produced for the RN with Thud-like inlets, RR Conway with reheat and a submerged bomb.....must have been around that time.

Vought also had options for a twin seater, either side-by-side in quite a squeeze or tandem like the F8 Twosader.
Arguably with RAN interest in '58, this might induce the RN to consider it and ask for trials off an Audacious Carrier....
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.
That's why it's an outside shot. Realistically, it will be 1962 at least before the RAN commissions a new carrier. So a few more years to let things change. And even if they did get a carrier, it would likely be restricted to ASW service only with maybe a single flight of anti-snooper fighters for self defense.
Japan was looking for an escort or light fleet carrier to operate ASW aircraft, i.e. Trackers and Sea Kings in the early 60s but plans went nowhere due to political and budgetary concerns. The eventual DDHs were the compromise alternative with the plan being the required number of helicopters would be divided among two DDH and a number of helo equipped ASW destroyers in each of four proposed ASW groups. The number of DDH was halved and DDs with helicopters increased to maintain helicopter numbers.

Maybe Japan could acquire Melbourne once Australia get her long desired strike carrier?
 
August 10, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia




In conjunction with the fighter specification, the Royal Australian Navy begins preparing a proposal to replace Melbourne. Though the carrier was still nearly new, it was nearly entirely incapable of operating the next generation of carrier aircraft. The rough outline of the proposal requires a ship no smaller than an American Essex class carrier and with the ability to operate the most modern combat aircraft. Getting the government to pay for it though would be far easier said than done.

Would India like to have Melbourne if she gets sold.
It's a possibility. As is Brazil, with an outside shot for the Philippines and Japan
Japan getting a carrier, only 13 years after the end of the war, that is going to upset a lot of neighbors.
That's why it's an outside shot. Realistically, it will be 1962 at least before the RAN commissions a new carrier. So a few more years to let things change. And even if they did get a carrier, it would likely be restricted to ASW service only with maybe a single flight of anti-snooper fighters for self defense.
Japan was looking for an escort or light fleet carrier to operate ASW aircraft, i.e. Trackers and Sea Kings in the early 60s but plans went nowhere due to political and budgetary concerns. The eventual DDHs were the compromise alternative with the plan being the required number of helicopters would be divided among two DDH and a number of helo equipped ASW destroyers in each of four proposed ASW groups. The number of DDH was halved and DDs with helicopters increased to maintain helicopter numbers.

Maybe Japan could acquire Melbourne once Australia get her long desired strike carrier?

Could Australia not keep Melbourne as a dedicated commando carrier.
 
Could Australia not keep Melbourne as a dedicated commando carrier.
Realistically, no. They don't have the manpower or budget to operate a full size fleet carrier, plus escorts, plus a light fleet carrier and its escorts. Even in a commando carrier role, Melbourne would still need some 500-700 crew. Plus, she's probably more valuable to sell as she is modernised and is at least somewhat capable of serving as a light attack carrier with A-4s or in an ASW role with S-2s. If they really need a commando carrier, the RAN has Sydney in reserve that they can use. Though it probably makes more sense to sell them both together: Melbourne as an operational carrier and Sydney as a parts hulk.
 
Lol! Maybe not so bad.

I don't know what Defence tenders were like back then but if they were even partially as detailed as now it would be an absolute nightmare, even if just an update to an existing. Remember also that this would be pre-internet days so all requests/responses would be by formal letter, in person meeting/presentation and maybe phone calls. That said, it is a side issue to the discussion.
 
Lol! Maybe not so bad.

I don't know what Defence tenders were like back then but if they were even partially as detailed as now it would be an absolute nightmare, even if just an update to an existing. Remember also that this would be pre-internet days so all requests/responses would be by formal letter, in person meeting/presentation and maybe phone calls. That said, it is a side issue to the discussion.
The way I'm envisioning it, is that most of the details would have been worked out over the previous 6 months. Items like manufacturing offsets, price, post sale support, etc would have been negotiated long before the final offers were submitted. So there would be a broad understanding and agreement on those points already. This was more a last chance to sweeten their offers before the final selection is made. Not to mention that, once Australia made carrier capability a requirement, Grumman, Vought and McDonnell started burning the midnight oil to polish up their offers, rightly assuming that they had the inside track to the sale.
 
I dont think Australia (or Canada and the Netherlands) could have replaced their ex RN light fleet carriers with Essexes much less build and design their own versions.
The USN still needed the Essexes that were in good condition as the new CVs were slow in coming on stream.
The Aussies realised this which is why they grasped the nettle of F111 as the best means of de-fanging Indonesia or any future neighboring threat.
Melbourne was very good value. Her airgroup of A4s, S2s and helos was useful in the various commitments Australia had through to the 70s. The three US Adams DGs were effective ships.
Had Indonesia remained a threat in the 60s and 70s with ever more complex Soviet supplied kit (Kashin destroyers, Tu22 Blinders) the US and UK could have been relied on to weigh in.
 
I dont think Australia (or Canada and the Netherlands) could have replaced their ex RN light fleet carriers with Essexes much less build and design their own versions.
The USN still needed the Essexes that were in good condition as the new CVs were slow in coming on stream.
The Aussies realised this which is why they grasped the nettle of F111 as the best means of de-fanging Indonesia or any future neighboring threat.
Melbourne was very good value. Her airgroup of A4s, S2s and helos was useful in the various commitments Australia had through to the 70s. The three US Adams DGs were effective ships.
Had Indonesia remained a threat in the 60s and 70s with ever more complex Soviet supplied kit (Kashin destroyers, Tu22 Blinders) the US and UK could have been relied on to weigh in.
There were a few unmodernised hulls that were available if Australia wanted them. Leyte has been mentioned. There was also Philippine Sea, Franklin and Bunker Hill were all in the Reserve Fleet in the ATL at this point and were put into reserve within a year or two of this point in OTL. Princeton was scheduled to be decommissioned in 1958 originally, before being converted to an LPH. So she would be available as well. If the RAN was willing to pay to upgrade them to SCB-125A standard they could all be had.

In OTL, I certainly agree that the RAN got a lot of bang for their buck out of Melbourne. For what they needed her for, she was perfect. But in the ATL, she may come up lacking. And the US may not always be available to fall back on should things blow up in the region. Especially if they have commitments elsewhere or are responding to some other crises.
 
October 4, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


A preliminary specification for a new aircraft carrier is submitted for review to Sir Phillip McBride. The specification calls for a carrier of between forty and sixty thousand tons at full load, a length of no less than 850 feet with a maximum length of 970 feet and a beam no greater than 147 feet so as to fit within the Captain Cook Graving Dock on Garden Island. Two steam catapults capable of launching an aircraft weighing 40,000 pounds at a minimum speed of 130 knots or an aircraft weighing 70,000 pounds at 100 knots were to be fitted. Arresting gear and deck strong enough to recover aircraft weighting at least 50,000 pounds at landing would be required along with command and control facilities sufficient to command a fleet from. And finally, the ability to carry at least forty tactical aircraft of the latest type along with support aircraft such as Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft and helicopters would be needed. This would give them a carrier large enough for a powerful airwing today and future proof enough for tomorrow.

Sir Phillip read over the specifications and chuckled to himself. The Navy was making their intentions very clear with this paper. They wanted either a new build, custom designed carrier or a second hand Essex class. Flipping to the page listing the desired radar and radio fit, he was surprised to see that American equipment was listed as the preferred choice over British supplied equipment. This would mark a significant shift in Australian defense policy and acquisitions. For decades, British ships, aircraft and equipment had been preferred. But with the latest preference for American aircraft, he supposed that it only made sense to prefer compatible radars and radios as well.

Making a series of notes, he sent a memo back to the Navy asking for their minimum required needs. He knew without even having to ask that Parliament would never approve the costs to design and build a one-off carrier. And the American supercarriers were far more ship, and far more expense, than Australia needed. Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't. So it would be an American ship. And likely one of their Essex class ships unless the Americans were willing to eat the cost to downsize one of their existing designs to fit Australian needs. He somehow rather doubted that they would be.
 
October 5, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. The internal bomb bay that was used to deliver nuclear weapons would be retained and used for additional fuel tanks of the buddy refueling system. Here, a note was attached recommending that Australia study the acquisition of nuclear weapons of its own as regional stability seemed to be eroding and having a nuclear deterrent, and the means to deliver it, would go far in ensuring Australia's security.

As Sir Phillip read on, he saw that the Air Force had made a side by side comparison of all the offered bombers they were interested in. In nearly every category, the Vigilante came out on top. It was easily the most expensive of the offered designs, being projected to cost roughly eight to nine million American dollars per aircraft, but it also offered a bomb load of 18,000 pounds when fully bombed up, assuming North American could deliver their promised strengthening improvements. Alternatively, it could deliver a 6,000 pound bomb load over a combat radius of 721nm unrefueled. With four drop tanks installed, it would have a combat range of 1900 miles with external bombs. When used in a nuclear role, it could deliver a single nuclear weapon at supersonic speeds 1100nm from base and return without a single air-to-air refueling. While it may be cheaper to buy an aircraft like the Thunderchief or F4H, they just could not do what the Vigilante could.

It really took the decision out of his hand. He would send a message to North American Aviation to request a formal proposal for 36 bombers modified to Australian requirements. Once the proposal was received, he would take it before the Prime Minister and Parliament for approval. As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.
 
Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't.
?
But they were about to do just that
 
Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't.
?
But they were about to do just that
About to. In 4 years. With entry into service no earlier than 1965, assuming everything went right and the RAN carrier was built at the same time as the first British carrier. More likely, it would be at least 1968 before any British carrier design would enter service with the RAN. Buying something like an Essex class gets a modern, very capable carrier in service with the RAN by 1961 with an outside chance of getting it commissioned in late 1960. Australia is looking at Indonesia and getting very worried. They aren't sure they have 10 years.
 
Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't.
?
But they were about to do just that
About to. In 4 years. With entry into service no earlier than 1965, assuming everything went right and the RAN carrier was built at the same time as the first British carrier. More likely, it would be at least 1968 before any British carrier design would enter service with the RAN. Buying something like an Essex class gets a modern, very capable carrier in service with the RAN by 1961 with an outside chance of getting it commissioned in late 1960. Australia is looking at Indonesia and getting very worried. They aren't sure they have 10 years.
Medium Fleet studies discussed at Bath in 1957, outlines of both pure carrier and hybrid missile ship/carrier for Naval Air Requirements Committee.
1958 plan included 3 hybrid ships for '64-'65, '656-'66 and '66-'67.
During '58 Hybrid was cancelled in favour of pure carriers, increasing requirements for a like-for-like replacement of the mandated 5 carrier fleet.

Downside is the missile system was NIGS and the radars were not even firmed up to actual designs. Though ADAWS was being born to handle the huge amount of date generated.
 
Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't.
?
But they were about to do just that
About to. In 4 years. With entry into service no earlier than 1965, assuming everything went right and the RAN carrier was built at the same time as the first British carrier. More likely, it would be at least 1968 before any British carrier design would enter service with the RAN. Buying something like an Essex class gets a modern, very capable carrier in service with the RAN by 1961 with an outside chance of getting it commissioned in late 1960. Australia is looking at Indonesia and getting very worried. They aren't sure they have 10 years.
Medium Fleet studies discussed at Bath in 1957, outlines of both pure carrier and hybrid missile ship/carrier for Naval Air Requirements Committee.
1958 plan included 3 hybrid ships for '64-'65, '656-'66 and '66-'67.
During '58 Hybrid was cancelled in favour of pure carriers, increasing requirements for a like-for-like replacement of the mandated 5 carrier fleet.

Downside is the missile system was NIGS and the radars were not even firmed up to actual designs. Though ADAWS was being born to handle the huge amount of date generated.
Have you got any details on the hybrid designs? Other than the details of the CVA01, the Escort Cruiser and some of the design of the VTOL carriers there are still holes in the published details of alternative designs. I'd like to see some of the details of the early version of the CVA01 particularly the 68,000ton version.
 
Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't.
?
But they were about to do just that
About to. In 4 years. With entry into service no earlier than 1965, assuming everything went right and the RAN carrier was built at the same time as the first British carrier. More likely, it would be at least 1968 before any British carrier design would enter service with the RAN. Buying something like an Essex class gets a modern, very capable carrier in service with the RAN by 1961 with an outside chance of getting it commissioned in late 1960. Australia is looking at Indonesia and getting very worried. They aren't sure they have 10 years.
Medium Fleet studies discussed at Bath in 1957, outlines of both pure carrier and hybrid missile ship/carrier for Naval Air Requirements Committee.
1958 plan included 3 hybrid ships for '64-'65, '656-'66 and '66-'67.
During '58 Hybrid was cancelled in favour of pure carriers, increasing requirements for a like-for-like replacement of the mandated 5 carrier fleet.

Downside is the missile system was NIGS and the radars were not even firmed up to actual designs. Though ADAWS was being born to handle the huge amount of date generated.
Have you got any details on the hybrid designs? Other than the details of the CVA01, the Escort Cruiser and some of the design of the VTOL carriers there are still holes in the published details of alternative designs. I'd like to see some of the details of the early version of the CVA01 particularly the 68,000ton version.
AIUI, the 68,000 ton version of CVA-01 was essentially a slightly downsized Forestall class with a full angled deck and four steam catapults. It was eliminated early on in as too expensive since it would require numerous improvements to the RN's docks to be able to properly service the carrier.
 
As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.

A Australia armed with nuclear weapons, i do not hoop we will see a nuclear arms race between Australia and Indonesia.
 
November 2, 1958
Brooklyn, NY, USA


The former Leyte enters drydock at the New York Naval Shipyard to begin her overhaul in preparation for her transfer to Argentina. She is scheduled to be brought up to the same SCB-27C/125A configuration as Oriskany and Lake Champlain. Additionally, the powerplant is to be overhauled and new, automated control hardware is to be installed to reduce manning requirements for the smaller Argentine Navy. The overhaul is planned to take between twenty-eight and thirty-two months.
 
As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.

A Australia armed with nuclear weapons, i do not hoop we will see a nuclear arms race between Australia and Indonesia.
I'm not sure Indonesia ever had the ability to produce nuclear weapons and the Soviets for sure would not even consider selling them any. If Indonesia wants nuclear weapons, they would have to host Soviet forces to operate them and the weapons would be under the sole control of Moscow, similar to the missiles that the USSR placed in Cuba in 1962.
 
November 29, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


The Vought F8U-3E Crusader III is declared the winner of the Australian fighter competition. The results from the United States Navy fly off had proved decisive for both the Royal Australian Air Force and for the Fleet Air Arm. While some concerns were raised about the pilot workload and the possibility that the United States Navy may not choose the aircraft for their own needs, the projected costs and performance advantages of the Super Crusader were just too good to ignore. Alongside that announcement, the Department of Defense announced that they had entered into final negotiations for the firm purchase of one hundred fighters with options for a further forty. As part of the negotiations, Australia wished to conduct final assembly of the aircraft at the Government Aircraft Factory and manufacture certain parts of the fighter locally to provide jobs in Australia and a secure supply of spare parts for their new fighter force.

Separately, the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation entered into negotiations with Pratt & Whitney to license produce the J75-P-5A engine for the fighters. Surprisingly, this negotiation would prove more difficult than for the fighters themselves. As part of Australia's stated interest in buying the North American Vigilante, CAC had also requested a license to build the competing General Electric J79-GE-8 engines. Though the two engines were in different thrust classes, they were built by two very antagonistic manufacturers. It would take some very astute negotiations along with some very strong safeguards to ensure corporate trade secrets would not be accidentally given to the wrong company.
 
As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.

A Australia armed with nuclear weapons, i do not hoop we will see a nuclear arms race between Australia and Indonesia.
I'm not sure Indonesia ever had the ability to produce nuclear weapons and the Soviets for sure would not even consider selling them any. If Indonesia wants nuclear weapons, they would have to host Soviet forces to operate them and the weapons would be under the sole control of Moscow, similar to the missiles that the USSR placed in Cuba in 1962.
An ominous possibility...
 
October 5, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. The internal bomb bay that was used to deliver nuclear weapons would be retained and used for additional fuel tanks of the buddy refueling system. Here, a note was attached recommending that Australia study the acquisition of nuclear weapons of its own as regional stability seemed to be eroding and having a nuclear deterrent, and the means to deliver it, would go far in ensuring Australia's security.

As Sir Phillip read on, he saw that the Air Force had made a side by side comparison of all the offered bombers they were interested in. In nearly every category, the Vigilante came out on top. It was easily the most expensive of the offered designs, being projected to cost roughly eight to nine million American dollars per aircraft, but it also offered a bomb load of 18,000 pounds when fully bombed up, assuming North American could deliver their promised strengthening improvements. Alternatively, it could deliver a 6,000 pound bomb load over a combat radius of 721nm unrefueled. With four drop tanks installed, it would have a combat range of 1900 miles with external bombs. When used in a nuclear role, it could deliver a single nuclear weapon at supersonic speeds 1100nm from base and return without a single air-to-air refueling. While it may be cheaper to buy an aircraft like the Thunderchief or F4H, they just could not do what the Vigilante could.

It really took the decision out of his hand. He would send a message to North American Aviation to request a formal proposal for 36 bombers modified to Australian requirements. Once the proposal was received, he would take it before the Prime Minister and Parliament for approval. As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.
Let me be the first to repost this.
RAAF_Retailator.jpg
 
October 5, 1958
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. The internal bomb bay that was used to deliver nuclear weapons would be retained and used for additional fuel tanks of the buddy refueling system. Here, a note was attached recommending that Australia study the acquisition of nuclear weapons of its own as regional stability seemed to be eroding and having a nuclear deterrent, and the means to deliver it, would go far in ensuring Australia's security.

As Sir Phillip read on, he saw that the Air Force had made a side by side comparison of all the offered bombers they were interested in. In nearly every category, the Vigilante came out on top. It was easily the most expensive of the offered designs, being projected to cost roughly eight to nine million American dollars per aircraft, but it also offered a bomb load of 18,000 pounds when fully bombed up, assuming North American could deliver their promised strengthening improvements. Alternatively, it could deliver a 6,000 pound bomb load over a combat radius of 721nm unrefueled. With four drop tanks installed, it would have a combat range of 1900 miles with external bombs. When used in a nuclear role, it could deliver a single nuclear weapon at supersonic speeds 1100nm from base and return without a single air-to-air refueling. While it may be cheaper to buy an aircraft like the Thunderchief or F4H, they just could not do what the Vigilante could.

It really took the decision out of his hand. He would send a message to North American Aviation to request a formal proposal for 36 bombers modified to Australian requirements. Once the proposal was received, he would take it before the Prime Minister and Parliament for approval. As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.
Let me be the first to repost this.
RAAF_Retailator.jpg
It is IMHO when of the best looking aircraft ever produced, and I had the pleasure of oggling it up close on the USS Intepid in New York.

Also as a rather extreme suggestion of an aircraft to counter the Indonesians, what about the B58? Did it have a conventional bombing capability, could it have been upgraded with more powerful engines (Speys) and dispense with the Pod.
 
Also as a rather extreme suggestion of an aircraft to counter the Indonesians, what about the B58? Did it have a conventional bombing capability, could it have been upgraded with more powerful engines (Speys) and dispense with the Pod.
The Hustler was offered. But the RAAF thought it was just too specialized as a nuclear strategic bomber and that the Vigilante was a more flexible aircraft. They don't need a nuclear bomber (yet), but they do want an aircraft that can get in and get out rapidly while delivering a heavy bomb load.
 
Back
Top Bottom