Chinese Space Program

View: https://youtu.be/jdMQAfEIE0k


Tianwen-3: Mars Rover Collects and Returns Samples to Earth

CNSA Watcher - Archives
8 Mar 2024

Tianwen-3 Mars sample return mission demonstration video: The rover collects samples on the Martian surface (not just digging around the landing site), autonomously packages the samples and loads them into the ascent vehicle, which is then launched into orbit and rendezvous with the return combination. The combination obtains the samples carried by the ascent vehicle through a robotic arm, then launches back to Earth and parachutes into the landing module.

Source: https://m.weibo.cn/status/O3XxXmEz7
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Tianwen 3 slips to 2030; three landing sites identified.

spacenews.com

China targets 2030 for Mars sample return mission, potential landing areas revealed

China targets 2030 for Mars sample return mission, potential landing areas revealed China is making progress towards a 2030 launch for its Tianwen-3 Mars sample return mission and has narrowed down potential landing areas.
spacenews.com spacenews.com
 
Hopefully this will lit a fire under NASA and Congress ar$es, to salvage MSR: presently stuck halfway into its development. Will be interesting to check the chinese MSR architecture and also their development costs.

I'd found it sad that with 50 years of MSR studies and false starts under their belt, NASA ends beaten by China at the MSR game.
 
spacenews.com

Surprise Chinese lunar mission hit by launch anomaly

Surprise Chinese lunar mission hit by launch anomaly A pair of Chinese spacecraft, apparently intended for lunar orbit, have potentially been lost following an issue with a Long March rocket's upper stage on Wednesday.
spacenews.com spacenews.com

A rare (first in 180 launches) Long March launch failure, or more accurately its Yuanzheng kick-stage, that was meant to send two satellites to a Lunar distant retrograde orbit

The latest TLEs show it in a 263x277 km parking orbit, although the TLE may be outdated, they won’t have much time to try to salvage the launch.

Hopefully this won’t affect the upcoming sample return Chang’e 6 and its relay queqiao 2

3 launch mishaps in a row these past days, uncommon.
 
Archibald said:
Hopefully this will lit a fire under NASA and Congress ar$es, to salvage MSR: presently stuck halfway into its development. Will be interesting to check the chinese MSR architecture and also their development costs.

I'd found it sad that with 50 years of MSR studies and false starts under their belt, NASA ends beaten by China at the MSR game.
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I think in the end NASA will end up conceding MSR to China, either by design or more likely due to circumstances outside their control now that they no longer have a strong planetary mission advocate in Congress.
 
For those wondering QUEQIAO-2 has chugged along just fine over the past few days. Here's the best details we have on trajectory. The relay satellite has been using ground stations in Argentina and China to communicate with Earth. Details in ⬇️
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1771734797200638444
View: https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1771734797200638444


Asteroid optical observers came up with a good state vector for QUEQIAO-2 I've noticed the mission has a pretty horrible internal oscillator. It does wobble a fair amount more than I've seen on earlier Chinese missions. This could effect locked comms, note long sweeping... ⬇️
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The Espacio Lejano Station in the Neuquén Province of Argentina is in full use w/ QUEQIAO-2. Excellent fits to the 3-way Doppler data have been obtained. I used very wide 100Hz bins which explains size of residuals. W/ 1Hz bins the err would be subHz range.⬇️
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1771734806130315482
View: https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1771734806130315482


The data when run with Jiamusi Base in China produces a great match for the end of my QUEQIAO-2 passes. ⬇️
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And here's the comparison of the unlocked 1-way Doppler data. As you can see QUEQIAO-2's internal oscillator is not shall be say 'wonderful'.

The official frequency of QQ2 is 2234.520MHz based on my calculations. ⬇️
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1771734814359474184
View: https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1771734814359474184


The Lunar Orbit Insertion (LOI) burn appears to be scheduled for around 2024-03-24T17:00 UTC while as usual QUEQIAO-2 is high over China, I I have good confidence in this timing.

Anyone have any idea what the period of the "capture" orbit is? Not noted on released details.
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At Space Pioneer, the second Tianlong 2 (2t to orbit) has been assembled for a launch later this year, simultaneously, the hot fire test first stage of the Tianlong 3 is currently being assembled, Tianlong 3 (18t to orbit) fairing can also be seen, the company is celebraing its Fifth aniversary

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Meanwhile, two other companies, DeepBlue Aerospace and Landspace are preparing for high altitude VTVL tests of demonstrators.

Landspace's demonstrator will fly to 10 km and has a thrust of 80t
mp.weixin.qq.com

朱雀三号十公里级垂直起降回收试验箭顺利完成总装工作

4月15日，蓝箭航天朱雀三号可复用火箭垂直起降回收试验箭顺利完成“十公里级飞行”改造和总装工作，将全面转入最后的总测和出厂阶段。
mp.weixin.qq.com mp.weixin.qq.com
1713614468971.jpeg

Deepblue Aerospace's high altitude demonstrator has a sea level thrust of 66t, their demonstrator is supposed to be representative of the first Stage of their Nebula launcher, which they hope to launch and recover later this year
mp.weixin.qq.com

飞行准备 | 深蓝航天“星云-1”火箭一子级三机状态动力系统试车圆满成功！

mp.weixin.qq.com mp.weixin.qq.com

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Meanwhile, with the first Wenchang commercial pad (background) completed since last December, the second is taking shape.
The first launch pad was finished only 18 months after ground was broke, fuel testing with CZ-8 pathfinder has already happene.
1713614817911.jpeg Things are going fast there...
 
science.slashdot.org

China Reveals Most Detailed Geological Map of the Moon Ever Created - Slashdot

Longtime Slashdot reader AmiMoJo shares a report from Nature: The Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) has released the highest-resolution geological maps of the Moon yet. The Geologic Atlas of the Lunar Globe, which took more than 100 researchers over a decade to compile, reveals a total of 12,341...
science.slashdot.org
 
the Chang'e-6 lunar far side sample return mission was launch by Long March 5.

GMpO_GrWsAARZN7
 
Just one random thought, hopefully not off-topic. I've just realized that China Mars Sample Return and manned lunar landing both have a target year of 2029-2030.
I'm wondering whether this is not related to the 80th anniversary of the PRC - October 1, 2029.
But there is more.
Those days of 2023, both MSR and Artemis are in trouble. MSR price tag of $11 billion is not acceptable, neither is 2040. As for Artemis: SLS extremely low flight rate, Orion heatshield troubles, and Starship HLS own delays.

Bottom line: I wonder whether the PRC is not doing an all-out effort to beat NASA at both MSR and Artemis game, both efforts targeting a 1st October 2029 date.

https://spacenews.com/china-targets...urn-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanyue

Quote
On 12 July 2023, at the 9th China (International) Commercial Aerospace Forum in Wuhan, Hubei province, Zhang Hailian, a deputy chief designer with the CMSA, publicly introduced a preliminary plan to land two astronauts on the Moon by the year 2030.
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IMHO of course, I'm mostly reading the tea leaves.
 
Succesful separation of Chang'e 6
1714731021396.png

Archibald said:
Bottom line: I wonder whether the PRC is not doing an all-out effort to beat NASA at both MSR and Artemis game, both efforts targeting a 1st October 2029 date.
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The current target for chinese crewed lunar landing (late 2020s/before 2030) predates the *start* of Artemis by a decade.

Chinese MSR/Tianwen 3 has been delayed to 2030 a couple months ago, return won't happen until 2032/33
 
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Archibald said:
Just one random thought, hopefully not off-topic. I've just realized that China Mars Sample Return and manned lunar landing both have a target year of 2029-2030.
I'm wondering whether this is not related to the 80th anniversary of the PRC - October 1, 2029.
But there is more.
Those days of 2023, both MSR and Artemis are in trouble. MSR price tag of $11 billion is not acceptable, neither is 2040. As for Artemis: SLS extremely low flight rate, Orion heatshield troubles, and Starship HLS own delays.

Bottom line: I wonder whether the PRC is not doing an all-out effort to beat NASA at both MSR and Artemis game, both efforts targeting a 1st October 2029 date.

https://spacenews.com/china-targets...urn-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanyue

Quote


IMHO of course, I'm mostly reading the tea leaves.
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PRC anniversary maybe. But probably not racing against NASA. Either way the program will proceed as fast as it can proceed. If there are major hurdles they won’t rush it.
 
The proportions of orbiter to lander similar?---making it a de facto scale model test of the manned version later?
 
Archibald said:
Just one random thought, hopefully not off-topic. I've just realized that China Mars Sample Return and manned lunar landing both have a target year of 2029-2030.
I'm wondering whether this is not related to the 80th anniversary of the PRC - October 1, 2029.
But there is more.
Those days of 2023, both MSR and Artemis are in trouble. MSR price tag of $11 billion is not acceptable, neither is 2040. As for Artemis: SLS extremely low flight rate, Orion heatshield troubles, and Starship HLS own delays.

Bottom line: I wonder whether the PRC is not doing an all-out effort to beat NASA at both MSR and Artemis game, both efforts targeting a 1st October 2029 date.

https://spacenews.com/china-targets...urn-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanyue

Quote


IMHO of course, I'm mostly reading the tea leaves.
Click to expand...

As someone else posted, I think the timelines are simply "as soon as possible". For the moon shot, that depends on the development of the Long March 10, which I believe is the only rocket with enough cis-lunar capacity to deliver manned vehicles there. While the SLS part of the moon effort seems like somewhat of cluster fuck, it worth noting that the US will probably have four different heavy-super heavy cis lunar stacks in service shortly: Falcon Heavy, which I believe is to deliver the core of the Gateway next year, the SLS which will launch a manned test mission after that, Starship, which is supposed to deliver a lunar variant the year after that, and New Glenn, which is supposed to deliver an alternate lander I think the year after that. New Glenn is to enter service this year; I think it likely starship will continue testing through next year but will see operational Starlink missions as test launches before the year is out. While on the one hand that makes for a lot of single points of failure to the current plan, the fact that four different rocket stacks can deliver 20+ tons to the moon means that the US does have a lot of fallback options to adjust the plan if there is a setback. Also from what I can tell, the US plans for the moon involve a lot more local infrastructure. I think the PRC plan is to have two separate Long March 10 launches, one with a lander, one with an orbital module. It will be interesting to see how many test orbits of the moon they attempt first.
 
Archibald said:
Just one random thought, hopefully not off-topic. I've just realized that China Mars Sample Return and manned lunar landing both have a target year of 2029-2030.
I'm wondering whether this is not related to the 80th anniversary of the PRC - October 1, 2029.
But there is more.
Those days of 2023, both MSR and Artemis are in trouble. MSR price tag of $11 billion is not acceptable, neither is 2040. As for Artemis: SLS extremely low flight rate, Orion heatshield troubles, and Starship HLS own delays.

Bottom line: I wonder whether the PRC is not doing an all-out effort to beat NASA at both MSR and Artemis game, both efforts targeting a 1st October 2029 date.

https://spacenews.com/china-targets...urn-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanyue

Quote


IMHO of course, I'm mostly reading the tea leaves.
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Despite the American attempts to pull them into a competiton, China doesn't see them as rivals and are simply in a competition with themselves. They're not trying to outdo anyone, they're simply trying to reach their targets in a modest, realistic and risk averse manner. They're aware of the fact that they still lack some certain capabilities, and are simply trying to acquire these.
 
snne said:
Despite the American attempts to pull them into a competiton, China doesn't see them as rivals and are simply in a competition with themselves. They're not trying to outdo anyone, they're simply trying to reach their targets in a modest, realistic and risk averse manner. They're aware of the fact that they still lack some certain capabilities, and are simply trying to acquire these.
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That seems about as unlikely as the idea that they are timing their landing with the country's anniversary, IMO. Certainly in low earth orbit, China absolutely is in competition with the US. Perhaps cis-lunar space likely has little military value over the short to medium term, but I have no doubt China would love to beat the US to a moon landing if they are in a position to do so, if only for political reasons. The clout that would bring would be quite huge - nothing would articulate Xi's "Chinese Century" more than the PRC landing people on the moon before the US can re-establish itself.
 
Josh_TN said:
That seems about as unlikely as the idea that they are timing their landing with the country's anniversary, IMO. Certainly in low earth orbit, China absolutely is in competition with the US. Perhaps cis-lunar space likely has little military value over the short to medium term, but I have no doubt China would love to beat the US to a moon landing if they are in a position to do so, if only for political reasons. The clout that would bring would be quite huge - nothing would articulate Xi's "Chinese Century" more than the PRC landing people on the moon before the US can re-establish itself.
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In context of the cold war era space race, "would love to" get there first is a very different motivation to "push for everything" to get there first that the idea of a geopol related space competition implies.

In the former, it's a "nice if it happens, no bother if it doesn't happen" -- the latter is "we have to get ahead of the other guy for national/pride/ideology" reasons and if we don't it'll look terrible".
The current PRC attitude is very much in the former than the latter.
 
Blitzo said:
In context of the cold war era space race, "would love to" get there first is a very different motivation to "push for everything" to get there first that the idea of a geopol related space competition implies.

In the former, it's a "nice if it happens, no bother if it doesn't happen" -- the latter is "we have to get ahead of the other guy for national/pride/ideology" reasons and if we don't it'll look terrible".
The current PRC attitude is very much in the former than the latter.
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Is that based on statements released by the PRC? Or some other source or analysis?
 
Josh_TN said:
Is that based on statements released by the PRC? Or some other source or analysis?
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Well yes Chinese state media both recently and for years going back have been pretty consistent in saying that they are not in a race with anyone to the moon (a sampling of examples below from recent statements from both pundits and industry).

www.chinadaily.com.cn

Only US, not China, keen on moon race

The moon is the only natural satellite of Earth. It is also the nearest celestial body to our planet, and selenology, or the study of the moon, is very important for scientists, as it can give them insights into other celestial bodies and advance planetary science. If we want to know the history...
www.chinadaily.com.cn www.chinadaily.com.cn
www.globaltimes.cn

China has no intention of participating in the 'space race' imagined by the US: Global Times editorial - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn
www.chinadaily.com.cn

China not in 'space race', industry insiders say

All of China's activities in outer space are intended for the country's social, economic and technological development rather than for a "space race" with other nations, according to insiders in China's space industry.
www.chinadaily.com.cn www.chinadaily.com.cn

There is certainly a lot of noise from the US in regards to not wanting China to "win" a space race or moon race that they aren't even a part of (a small sampling again):
www.nbcnews.com

China launches Chang’e 6 lunar probe, revving up space race

The first-of-its-kind mission aims to bring back samples from the far side of the moon and is the latest step in a rapidly advancing Chinese space program.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
spacenews.com

The stakes of Space Race 2.0 could not be higher

Greg Autry and former Trump aide Peter Navarro write that America and Artemis Accord signatories must beat China in the Space Race 2.0.
spacenews.com spacenews.com



Putting it all into context, China is not particularly in a race with the US to the moon per se, rather China is in a race with itself to advance its own space capabilities to the best that it can manage.
The US perceives that as a race because "advancing its own space capabilities to the best that it can manage" automatically means that China may be able to rival the US in access to space, the moon, and requisite capabilities (which in the post cold war environment is relatively new), and in context of the geopolitical competition between both countries the US sees it as a strategic challenge in the same way that the US has seen everything else to be strategic challenges whether it be semiconductors, EVs, shipbuilding, renewable energy, etc.
 
I want us to be first. It might be out of date with our society but I still believe in America, not as an idea so many seem to push for but as the United States of America. Our nation. Our republic. I want America first and America to win. Why should China and the Chinese people feel any different? This is a race for prestige and there is no shame in that I dont think.
 
TMA1 said:
I want us to be first. It might be out of date with our society but I still believe in America, not as an idea so many seem to push for but as the United States of America. Our nation. Our republic. I want America first and America to win. Why should China and the Chinese people feel any different? This is a race for prestige and there is no shame in that I dont think.
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Because the United States already landed on the moon in 1969，So China is number two any way········
 
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Unsurprising, work so far has only been on prototypes, the construction of the flight model was due to start last month as of Q1, IIRC. December 2026 is still optimistic, I think...
 

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