Chengdu J-20 pictures, analysis and speculation Part II

[sferrin]

We don't even know what we're looking at and we're already talking about the decline of Western civilization. How 'bout we wait for a better look?

 

[Trident]

Wouldn't the door restrict the range of movement of the canard, especially when open far enough to clear a ready-to-fire missile? That would certainly be a good reason to keep the time during which the door is open to the absolute minimum!

 

[latenlazy]

Wouldn't the door restrict the range of movement of the canard, especially when open far enough to clear a ready-to-fire missile? That would certainly be a good reason to keep the time during which the door is open to the absolute minimum!

On the other hand, the door would only need to lift high enough to let the rail clear it.

 

[Deino]

A new simulation ...

 

[sferrin]

A new simulation ...

I guess the question I would ask would be "Why?"

 

[Deino]

Why ??? why I posted this new simulation (simply since I found it and it illustrates a possible explanation) or why that strange mechanism ? (IMO to close the door with some benefits on stealth, exhaust in the weapons bay - problems - ...)

 

[sferrin]

Why ??? why I posted this new simulation (simply since I found it and it illustrates a possible explanation) or why that strange mechanism ? (IMO to close the door with some benefits on stealth, exhaust in the weapons bay - problems - ...)

Why the strange mechanism. Doesn't seem like it'd be worth it.

 

[sferrin]

New video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzlAwi6Qna0

That video should put to rest the notion floating around a few days ago that it was flying with a new engine.

 

[chuck4]

What new engine? looks like the same engine it has since 2009.

 

[Deino]

Yes, ... but one of the engines was replaced with the silver coating missing and after one image was leaked with one of the engines showing the AB closed and the other one fully open some were asuming a new indigenous engine was installed.

Deino

 

[hagaricus]

Is it just me, or is it landing with its weapons bay door partly open in that video?

 

[Sundog]

Is it just me, or is it landing with its weapons bay door partly open in that video?

As shown up-thread, that's the lunch-rail not the doors. The launch rail can stay extended when the doors are closed. Read up thread and look at the diagrams provided to see how they are going about that.

 

[hagaricus]

Is it just me, or is it landing with its weapons bay door partly open in that video?

As shown up-thread, that's the lunch-rail not the doors. The launch rail can stay extended when the doors are closed. Read up thread and look at the diagrams provided to see how they are going about that.

D'oh, got it now...

 

[Deino]

Finally

 

[Deino]

http://www.iissbbs.com/viewthread.php?tid=4057829&extra=page%3D1

... and what's that on that pylon (1:27 - ... ) ????

Deino

PS: I'm not sure about that AAM but at CDF they say it's real.

 

[sferrin]

Finally

It's definitely a more efficient use of space than the current F-22 side bays. On the other hand, with a little work, I'll bet they could get two AIM-9Xs in each of the F-22s side bays.

 

[Deino]

... still not sure but at the CDF they take this as a confirmation for the PL-10 !

 

[Thorvic]

Err Deino

What can we see in white on the inside of the belly weapons bay door ?

 

[Deino]

Even if not fully confirmed it seems that this is the PL-10 IR-guided SR-AAM.

 

[flateric]

Err Deino

What can we see in white on the inside of the belly weapons bay door ?

Just an edge of second section of the weapon bay door.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Interesting comparison to the Ukrainian Gran' AAM and the K-30 AAM:

Could be photoshopped though.

 

[sferrin]

Interesting comparison to the Ukrainian Gran' AAM and the K-30 AAM:
Could be photoshopped though.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,283.0.html

In case anybody wants to check it out. . .

 

[chuck4]

The layout doesn't prove anything also it is common amongst recent IR dog fighting missiles such as German IRIS-T and French MICA.

Isn't PL-10 a semi-active MRAAM based on Italian Aspide missile?

 

[JFC Fuller]

The layout doesn't prove anything also it is common amongst recent IR dog fighting missiles such as German IRIS-T and French MICA.

Isn't PL-10 a semi-active MRAAM based on Italian Aspide missile?

Links between the Ukrainian and Chinese AAM industries have been documented in a number of places, the Chinese are said to still be reliant on the Ukraine for some key AAM components as well as design support.

 

[Deino]

No, the Aspide-copy is the PL-11 ... PL-10 - once called PL-ASR - is the new SR-IR-AAM and long expected to be similar to (or even based on) the South African A-Darter.

 

[chuck4]

The missile in the photograph seems to have butterfly wing shaped tail fins similar to R-27 alamo's central fins, also it seem larger than typical short range AAM.

 

[chuck4]

What are those dots on the fuselage surface all around the missile bay? Camera reference markers?

 

[flateric]

yes

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The missile in the photograph seems to have butterfly wing shaped tail fins similar to R-27 alamo's central fins, also it seem larger than typical short range AAM.

Possibly, but the level of distortion in the photo makes it hard to be sure. It may just be untapered.

As to size - maybe, I will do some scaling calculations tonight.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The layout doesn't prove anything also it is common amongst recent IR dog fighting missiles such as German IRIS-T and French MICA.

Isn't PL-10 a semi-active MRAAM based on Italian Aspide missile?

Links between the Ukrainian and Chinese AAM industries have been documented in a number of places, the Chinese are said to still be reliant on the Ukraine for some key AAM components as well as design support.

Indeed. Note the wings are positioned further forward than on MICA or IRIS-T. Also, there are no known links between Chinese and Western AAM manufacturers, so its much less likely that there is any connection. Not saying that China didn't or couldn't come up with that design alone, but it would fit a general pattern of cooperation if there was some Ukrainian influence.

 

[lancer21]

IF (and i emphasize that) the ukrainians have any part in this, like assistance or whatnot, their Gran missile seems to have a fairly similar configuration to PL-10. But then, so is Iris-T. Maybe it's just a configuration that serves best what the chinese want from this missile, without having any outside involvement in it. Either way , imo that PL-8 is becoming way too long in the tooth, wonder how far in development the PL-10 is .

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I can't decide if the fins have reverse taper, or maybe have some curvature like the wrap-around fins on the BGM-110 cruise missile.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here's a poor quality copy of the PL-10 picture from a 2010 AAM development roadmap of uncertain provenance. Added wings to the earlier A-Darter style layout, but tail is different from the missile on the J-20. If they are actually reverse taper, it may be to get greater control authority as it was on R-27 - with the cost of increased drag when used.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Size appears to be roughly 2.9m length, depending on your idea of how big J-20 is.

 

[Deino]

Size appears to be roughly 2.9m length, depending on your idea of how big J-20 is.

What could fit - and even more that wide diameter - to my theory that the PL-10 we saw above (and as shown in my book ??? ) was abandoned and replaced by a PL-8/9-based design with new control fins, TVC and so on.

Deino

 

[Deino]

A new video ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_QTj-yrwME

Deino

 

[Grey Havoc]

Size appears to be roughly 2.9m length, depending on your idea of how big J-20 is.

What could fit - and even more that wide diameter - to my theory that the PL-10 we saw above (and as shown in my book ??? ) was abandoned and replaced by a PL-8/9-based design with new control fins, TVC and so on.

Deino

This is just a theory mind, but what if, rather than being the PL-10 or another conventional missile, our mystery missile is actually some sort of expendable Electronic Warfare unit?

 

[chuck4]

It looks like it has thrust vectoring.

 

[Deino]

This is just a theory mind, but what if, rather than being the PL-10 or another conventional missile, our mystery missile is actually some sort of expendable Electronic Warfare unit?

Yes, that's a theory - my theory - but honestly when I saw the Raptor with its side bays loaded with an AIM-9M for the first time and even if I would not know what a SR-AAM looks like, I think a SR-AAM is much more likely for an air dominiance fighter than some sort of "expendable Electronic Warfare unit" !

Deino

 

[Trident]

Size appears to be roughly 2.9m length, depending on your idea of how big J-20 is.

What could fit - and even more that wide diameter - to my theory that the PL-10 we saw above (and as shown in my book ??? ) was abandoned and replaced by a PL-8/9-based design with new control fins, TVC and so on.

Deino

That's an interesting hypothesis! Over on the Keypublishing forum, somebody posted a close-up taken from below the airborne J-20 and I automatically suspected a fake , because the seeker looked remarkably like the one from the PL-8! Maybe the photo is genuine after all, and it's simply that your theory is correct?