Chengdu J-20 pictures, analysis and speculation Part II

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Is it me, or is it that the wing LERX is no longer curved?

Bit hard to tell without higher res pics, but it looks like it might be.


The odd material on the tail edges is harder to explain unless its a rough external "blanket" of RAM for testing purposes. Any ideas?

Are you talking about the tailbooms?

No - the different colour material on the edges of the vertical tails and ventral fins.

 

[Deino]

What a baaaaaad photographer !!!

Come on, give us the complete image. ;D

Deino

 

[Hanse]

Now that's just evil. LOL

 

[latenlazy]

Is it me, or is it that the wing LERX is no longer curved?

Bit hard to tell without higher res pics, but it looks like it might be.


The odd material on the tail edges is harder to explain unless its a rough external "blanket" of RAM for testing purposes. Any ideas?

Are you talking about the tailbooms?

No - the different colour material on the edges of the vertical tails and ventral fins.

E
Oh. That looks like ram treated edges. The trailing edge of the canard and the edges of the wings also seem to have that treatment.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Indeed - but it looks like an afterthought rather than designed in.

 

[EricChase88]

Rather ugly and ungainly looking. It has a lumbering appearence. It seems too bulky and draggy to be fast and maneuverable.

 

[latenlazy]

Indeed - but it looks like an afterthought rather than designed in.

How so?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

On the vertical tails it looks scabbed on, not part of the designed structure, IHMO. Need better photos though.

 

[latenlazy]

On the vertical tails it looks scabbed on, not part of the designed structure, IHMO. Need better photos though.

Speaking of that, I actually wonder if there's something wrong with the construction or structural integrity of one of the vertical tails. It looks like one of them is being held together by some staples. Kinda reminds me of what happened with one of the T-50 prototypes. The other tail looks like a cleaner job.

 

[Blitzo]

On the vertical tails it looks scabbed on, not part of the designed structure, IHMO. Need better photos though.

Are "RAM treated edges" usually part of the structure? I was under the assumption that it would only be seen as paint, and that any structural RCS reduction techniques would be virtually invisible to the naked eye.


And from this distance the painted edges don't look any more "scabby" than the F-22s ???
Might be the greater colour difference between J-20s fuselage black and the silver edges giving the illusion of shoddy painting.

Edit: oh I see, you mean the little dots and lines. Those are probably either attached to the aircraft or part of the aircraft (sensor or otherwise, see below).
Certainly, the edge paint doesn't look like an afterthought considering its condition on the rest of the aircraft, which makes me think this is merely an artefact of the plane's status as a prototype bird.

 

[Blitzo]

On the vertical tails it looks scabbed on, not part of the designed structure, IHMO. Need better photos though.

Speaking of that, I actually wonder if there's something wrong with the construction or structural integrity of one of the vertical tails. It looks like one of them is being held together by some staples. Kinda reminds me of what happened with one of the T-50 prototypes. The other tail looks like a cleaner job.

Possibly some sort of sensor?

 

[latenlazy]

On the vertical tails it looks scabbed on, not part of the designed structure, IHMO. Need better photos though.

Are "RAM treated edges" usually part of the structure? I was under the assumption that it would only be seen as paint, and that any structural RCS reduction techniques would be virtually invisible to the naked eye.


And from this distance the painted edges don't look any more "scabby" than the F-22s ???
Might be the greater colour difference between J-20s fuselage black and the silver edges giving the illusion of shoddy painting.

From what I've heard those edges are actually made of RAM, so it's not applied on as paint. I suppose those things on the tail could be sensors...would have to look closer to find out, but they look like staples to me from this distance.

 

[quellish]

Are "RAM treated edges" usually part of the structure? I was under the assumption that it would only be seen as paint, and that any structural RCS reduction techniques would be virtually invisible to the naked eye.

It can go either way. The A-12 had structural RAM in the edges, which is quite visible.
Coatings are good for some things, not for others, and they can have a lot of limitations. Modern coatings for a fighter sized aircraft are not trivial to install.

 

[Blitzo]

It can go either way. The A-12 had structural RAM in the edges, which is quite visible.
Coatings are good for some things, not for others, and they can have a lot of limitations. Modern coatings for a fighter sized aircraft are not trivial to install.

Looking over pictures of the A-12 mock up and artwork, I see no particular visible structural RAM, could you specify which parts you refer to, thanks.

From what I've heard those edges are actually made of RAM, so it's not applied on as paint. I suppose those things on the tail could be sensors...would have to look closer to find out, but they look like staples to me from this distance.

I see. In any case, only the paint looks a little discontinuous on the right tail, so the original statement about the tail structure edge looking scabbed on doesn't quite make sense. Certainly not an afterthought. Maybe they decided to paint the edge a different colour from the rest of the plane as an afterthought. But we don't know what the tail structure looks like in the first place anyway.


--
Must be a hell of an office store that sells staples that size and that heavy duty
But the other two J-20 prototypes have shown similar little knick knacks on their tail as well (but were different shapes to 2011s tails), observed without much fanfare.
It is also weird that in this case only one tail seems modified, and before the first flight too.


Who knows, maybe they got lazy painting the last part of the aircraft.

 

[flateric]

Looking over pictures of the A-12 mock up and artwork, I see no particular visible structural RAM, could you specify which parts you refer to, thanks.

Lockheed's A-12. Not that one you thinking of.

 

[Deino]

For additional eyball analysis ... some will surely find out from these images that the pilot did not clean his shoes before entring the cockpit !

Come on guys these statement like "is not good since it looks like ... " are not up to the quality of this forum, otherwise the Key-Forum might be a better place.

By the way sadly nothing new ... but a larger version of the already posted one.

Deino

 

[Deino]

Two interesting comparisons ...

PS: ... hmmm, gif does not work !

http://www.jeffhead.com/j20/2011-animate.gif

 

[FighterJock]

Two interesting comparisons ...

PS: ... hmmm, gif does not work !

http://www.jeffhead.com/j20/2011-animate.gif

Any idea why they redesigned the edges of the landing gear and weapons bay doors from 2001 and 2011?

 

[_Del_]

Optimized for longer wavelengths? Easier production? Both? No idea.

 

[VH]

Any idea why they redesigned the edges of the landing gear and weapons bay doors from 2001 and 2011?

Could be the doors were giving a radar glint from an edge

 

[Sundog]

Most U.S. programs went the same route, with regard to stealth edges. Early stealth here had a lot more serrations than what we're using now. I think the likely culprit is lower manufacturing costs.

 

[VH]

The F-117 had RAM treatment blankets and tapes that were adhesive backed and applied to the skin of the aircraft and held on with adhesives. First generation RAM. China maybe following the same path


http://www.solianiemc.com/products/radar-absorbent-materials/multi-layer-flat-microwave-abosorbers-en-GB/

 

[Blitzo]

Most U.S. programs went the same route, with regard to stealth edges. Early stealth here had a lot more serrations than what we're using now. I think the likely culprit is lower manufacturing costs.

Not inconceivable for them to have advanced faster between their first and second RCS reduction methods than the US did.


Certainly I doubt choosing larger/fewer serrations over smaller/more serrations would result in a major decrease in production cost.
If anything I'd say the revised serrated panels for landing bay, weapons bay, etc, more resemble recent US stealth efforts.


As for the J-20s edges, all we can say is they look different to the rest of the aircraft. Unfortunately it doesn't mean it is necessarily adhesive RAM, special paint, or just ordinary paint with structural edge RCS reduction instead. F-22 and F-35 both have superficially visibly similar highlights of edges too.

 

[latenlazy]

The F-117 had RAM treatment blankets and tapes that were adhesive backed and applied to the skin of the aircraft and held on with adhesives. First generation RAM. China maybe following the same path


http://www.solianiemc.com/products/radar-absorbent-materials/multi-layer-flat-microwave-abosorbers-en-GB/

The F-117's approach to RAM is 30 years old. The RAM that's now available for commercial use is probably better than what the F-117 had at the time.

 

[VH]

We are not talking about the RAM material itself. We are talking about the method of applying it to the aircraft. And it appears in the pictures that whatever this is on the J-20 it is an applique. See below.


"...In its broadest sense, an appliqué is a smaller ornament or device applied to another surface."

Applying external RAM is an easy way for a country like China who has not mastered manufacturing RAM incorporated structures to reduce the signature of an aircraft

 

[latenlazy]

We are not talking about the RAM material itself. We are talking about the method of applying it to the aircraft. And it appears in the pictures that whatever this is on the J-20 it is an applique. See below.


"...In its broadest sense, an appliqué is a smaller ornament or device applied to another surface."

Applying external RAM is an easy way for a country like China who has not mastered manufacturing RAM incorporated structures to reduce the signature of an aircraft

Ahh, but how do we know that China hasn't mastered manufacturing RAM incorporated structures? That's where the point about the F-117's technology being three decades old comes in.

 

[Blitzo]

We are not talking about the RAM material itself. We are talking about the method of applying it to the aircraft. And it appears in the pictures that whatever this is on the J-20 it is an applique. See below.


"...In its broadest sense, an appliqué is a smaller ornament or device applied to another surface."

Applying external RAM is an easy way for a country like China who has not mastered manufacturing RAM incorporated structures to reduce the signature of an aircraft

That is the question isn't it, have they mastered it?


Certainly I don't think the pictures suggest the j-20 has any appliqué in the form you suggested, it might just well be different paint.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In the earlier, fuzzy pics it looked like an applique, but the newer shots, maybe not.

 

[Radical]

It seems like the actuator fairings are indeed smaller, and properly angled as well. Let's see if they'll do the same for the control surfaces. Also, from what I heard, the ventral fins help block the engine exhaust from certain lines of sight, but I'm not sure how effective that will be.

 

[Blitzo]

In the earlier, fuzzy pics it looked like an applique, but the newer shots, maybe not.

At the sheer distances the photos are being taken at, I think it is nigh impossible to differentiate.


Even a higher quality photo would be difficult to tell.

 

[Deino]

two new images ... first '2011' again and second a J-20 in grey at Xi'an-Yanliang in January '14.

 

[FighterJock]

two new images ... first '2011' again and second a J-20 in grey at Xi'an-Yanliang in January '14.

Was the second image from Google Maps?

 

[Deino]

It's from Google Earth taken at Xi'an-Yanliang ... here's a larger one !

 

[latenlazy]

two new images ... first '2011' again and second a J-20 in grey at Xi'an-Yanliang in January '14.

Was the second image from Google Maps?

Don't think so. It was given to us by SOC.

 

[Trident]

Any idea what the new small bumps on the inlet sides (below the canard leading edge) might be? MAWS/EW sensors or camera pods for weapons separation trials?

 

[JFC Fuller]

It's from Google Earth taken at Xi'an-Yanliang ... here's a larger one !

That really demonstrates J-20s size!

 

[latenlazy]

It's from Google Earth taken at Xi'an-Yanliang ... here's a larger one !

That really demonstrates J-20s size!

Notice the runway narrowing from right to left? That's a perspective effect. The flankers to the left are smaller than the flankers to the right.

 

[SOC]

Notice the runway narrowing from right to left? That's a perspective effect. The flankers to the left are smaller than the flankers to the right.

That's because the screen capture was taken when Google Earth was not looking straight down. Otherwise it'd be a failure in the georeferencing.

 

[latenlazy]

Notice the runway narrowing from right to left? That's a perspective effect. The flankers to the left are smaller than the flankers to the right

Noooo, really? : J-20 still looks big.

*sigh*

Here's one without the perspective problem. Judge for yourself.

Notice the runway narrowing from right to left? That's a perspective effect. The flankers to the left are smaller than the flankers to the right.

That's because the screen capture was taken when Google Earth was not looking straight down. Otherwise it'd be a failure in the georeferencing.

Oh, so it was Google Earth?

 

[latenlazy]

If 20.5 meters is big...Still smaller than a flanker? I guess I should have asked what you meant by "big".