FighterJock
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
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Deino said:J-20A + WS-10B
Is the J-20A now testing twin WS-10B engines or is it still one engine?
Deino said:J-20A + WS-10B
FighterJock said:Deino said:J-20A + WS-10B
Is the J-20A now testing twin WS-10B engines or is it still one engine?
VH said:This is new and may have bearing on the reported detection of a Chinese J-20 by Indian fighters:
"..India air force Su-30 jets to get indigenous infrared tracking system to locate Chinese J-20 jets
June 6, 2018...NEW DELHI – Indian Air Force (IAF) frontline jet fighter Sukhoi Su-30MKI soon will be equipped with indigenous infrared sensors to detect even a radar-evading stealth aircraft possessed by India's adversaries in day and night conditions. Zee News reports.
The Sukhoi Su-30MKI already has a radar that can detect and track the supposed stealth Chinese fighter Chengdu J-20 but with the government deciding to develop a long range dual band infrared imaging search and track system (IRST) for the aircraft under ‘Make II’ sub-category, the IAF jet will be able to locate any plane with stealth characteristics. The IRST can detect and track fighter jets, helicopters and missiles which emit infrared radiation.
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of equipment for the India Defence Forces, including the development of the IRST for Su-30MKI. The system will be able to operate in day and night conditions and will substantially enhance the capabilities of the aircraft.
A couple of months back, the IAF revealed that the Sukhoi Su-30MKI radar can see China's Chengdu J-20 hundreds of kilometers away."
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/pt/2018/06/india-fighters-infrared.html?cmpid=enl_mae_wrap_up_2018-06-08&pwhid=008a220637c696d632aca29696b59236c3a895dff7da20939a1b5ac1a016430ca4cc56ea31df86c3d134e933ab6cc256e9c497d1f5c23504809625e20f41bd74&eid=288671000&bid=2131896
VH said:The USAF was surprised by the “surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots” during a joint training exercise called Cope India at Gwalior. This was in 2004. The addition of an advanced IRST of Indian design on their front line Su-30 fighters may prove to be another surprise in the time of stealthy aircraft.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/cope-india.htm
All I am saying is do not play India cheap. The backbone of the Indian Air Force is the Sukhoi-30MKI. And India has been very resourceful in modifying older designs to perform tasks in the modern skies.
VH said:Right now the subject is the J-20 and the material I posted has to do with the J-20. I do understand your sensitivity regarding detection of the J-20.
Blitzo said:I certainly think it is reasonable to treat their previous claims with a generous helping of salt, yes.
Directly quoting those articles without added commentary as you have done so would suggest that you believe their claims are reasonable.
VH said:Blitzo said:I certainly think it is reasonable to treat their previous claims with a generous helping of salt, yes.
Directly quoting those articles without added commentary as you have done so would suggest that you believe their claims are reasonable.
I do think these claims are plausible. Any stealthy aircraft will have multiple signatures with radar being the most prominent. IR is a legitimate signature weighed against the computing power applied to interpret that signature. I have had the opportunity to crawl around one of the F-23 prototypes and was impressed with the attention to controlling the IR signature of the engine exhausts. Even F-22 has measures to control the IR signature of its engine exhaust. So it is highly plausible that J-20 could be detected by an advanced IRST. We will have to wait until this Indian IRST is in use to determine the final performance.
Deino said:J-20A + WS-10B
Let's wait,Zhuhai airshow begin on Nov 6litzj said:Thanks for sharing nice pics. I heard the news that TVC nozzle is attached to J-10; Is that targets for J-20 application?
Is there maneuver demonstration using TVC' J-10?
NUSNA_Moebius said:Really makes you wonder how much is postulation based on photos of American 5th gens versus actual espionage.
One TVC engine may already be installed on a J-20 test unit.PaulMM (Overscan) said:It seems fairly clear the 3D vectoring nozzle on the J-10 is a prototype for eventual fitment to the J-20...
http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=7232.540
LowObservable said:What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.
The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.
kcran567 said:Does a Zebra have stripes?
Where China was behind whether in wing tech or materials or structural tech they clearly used spying and espionage through corporate employees and students, maybe even outright buying the tech or bribing employees with "honeypots" or cash. It happened. And so did the "cyber" espionage before it became well known.
China now can go their own direction and even start to lead in certain areas, but they will still use all means of espionage to get what they need (physical infiltration, cyber hacking, student and employee theft of data) in many cases the tech is being given to them just to get access to Chinese markets.
They are experts of copying tech, see the J-15
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-rips-chinas-j-15-fighter-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9
How else did China leapfrog so fast to reach parity?
https://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-hacked-f22-f35-jet-secrets/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty
https://www.investors.com/partner-perspective/currents-of-disruption-tech-and-media-going-vertical-going-global/
Are we complaining about the rules of the game or are we complaining about it’s results? I think there’s a strong case to be made (though far from foolproof) that there are implicit and explicit norms of conduct for economic and technological competition that China is deliberately ignoring. However, it’s unreasonable to expect any country to comply to codes of conduct that are meant for the deliberate result of knee capping their chances to reach parity or be competitive though, and a bit disingenuous to begrudge countries for agitating against such arrangements. Trying to impose such expectations is likely to get more non compliance, not less. One wonders why so much of China’s technology trasfer and espionage efforts focus so much on state of the art materials, semiconductors, and aerospace.kcran567 said:Yeah, but the level they do it at is monumental in scope.
LowObservable said:What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.
The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.
Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation (and also the range of workable conditions in the more extreme envelopes of flight are much less forgiving).Blitzo said:LowObservable said:What makes the espionage argument moot - at least at the level of public knowledge, and probably at the level of knowledge possessed by the Western IC - is that while the J-20 clearly looks a lot like an F-22, and uses the same LO design philosophy, all the visible features could have been copied from open sources, a decade or more before the first flight. For example....
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
Chinese engineers, therefore, would have had several years in which to reverse-engineer visible features, understand their importance and work out how to manufacture them before J-20 development started. For example "how do we make an optically acceptable frameless canopy?" could have been a challenge set in 1997.
The J-20 appeared at the end of 2010. On typical Western timescales, this would have meant that development started in 2004-05 with PDR or equivalent in 2006-07. However, this is somewhat earlier than the point at which anyone started to talk about cyber-espionage as a big deal - we started hearing about the Advanced Persistent Threat in 2008.
Considering how many burgeoning stealth fighter programmes these days seem to emulate F-22 and F-35 design features (the KFXs, TFXs, F-3s, AMCAs of the world) one also has to wonder whether the convergence of performance requirements and limitations of technology would also mean certain design features simply work the best, or are the lowest risk.
Personally I think it will be interesting if all of those stealth fighters do end up being developed the way their concepts have been floated. It would mark a nice return almost to WWII propeller biplane days when the majority of fighters (single engine propeller biplane types) all looked very similar to each other with near identical configurations, but where everyone also recognized they were also their own distinct aircraft through the combination of small details.
In time, perhaps F-35, FC-31, KFX, TFX etc will all be acknowledged as being uniquely different aircraft just as Spitfire, Me 109, P-51 and A6M Zero all were even though they may all share the broadly similar configuration.
latenlazy said:Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation.
latenlazy said:Blitzo said:sferrin said:You're really going to play dumb here? Okay, well you have fun with that. Personally I'll take "oafish and clumsy" over dangerously naive.
You can totally air complaints and concern if the tides of military development make you concerned over the way that geopolitical competition may go.
But that also means you'll be giving up any moral authority regarding the sanctity of "poaching and mimicking what your competitor is doing".
In other words, you're basically saying that you don't necessarily have an issue with the act of poaching/mimicking/etc itself in terms of military or technological development, but rather that you dislike it when a competitor does it.
Exactly. Maybe we need to be giving some serious thought about whether our much vaunted and extolled standards and virtues were just for show self justifications when things were convenient, or whether we are actually serious about them.
Blitzo said:latenlazy said:Perhaps we are seeing design convergence because we are now reaching the limits of what the current propulsion technologies allow for. There was a lot more room to explore novel and different designs when jet engines were new on the block and offering new power margins that allowed for a greater degree of experimentation.
I think limitations in terms of technology, funding, and broadly similar performance parameters are part of the reason for the crop of current 5th gen projects. In terms of technology, I think propulsion, aerodynamic/flight control system and rf stealth technology all come together to pose a combined technological limit at the current stage.
I think we are also starting to see some divergence in terms of 5+ gen or near 6th gen designs, some of which may be completely tailless, some of which may have tails, some of which may be somewhere between the two etc, as new technologies and not-yet-concrete performance goals begin to be developed for the next generation.
Flying wing UCAVs/UAVs have also reached a certain level of design convergence, and I expect flying wing UCAV designs to remain broadly static going forwards into the future.
kcran567 said:Does a Zebra have stripes?
Where China was behind whether in wing tech or materials or structural tech they clearly used spying and espionage through corporate employees and students, maybe even outright buying the tech or bribing employees with "honeypots" or cash. It happened. And so did the "cyber" espionage before it became well known.
China now can go their own direction and even start to lead in certain areas, but they will still use all means of espionage to get what they need (physical infiltration, cyber hacking, student and employee theft of data) in many cases the tech is being given to them just to get access to Chinese markets.
They are experts of copying tech, see the J-15
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-rips-chinas-j-15-fighter-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9
How else did China leapfrog so fast to reach parity?
https://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-hacked-f22-f35-jet-secrets/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty
https://www.investors.com/news/who-is-behind-the-lockheed-f-35-boeing-p-8-hack/
Ares said:New Chinese stealth fighter
https://i.imgur.com/LrPtexU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JjPAOhD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uRqr6o0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pHGVJ19.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vsqUSt8.jpg
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh............