Chengdu J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter

[hesham]

Hi,

the Chengdu J-10 (F-10) with small canard wing.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1995/1995%20-%203289.html?search=shuttle%20derivative

 

[sferrin]

No idea how "official" this is.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I think its faked, myself, perhaps Deino can comment?

 

[yasotay]

I have seen a CGI of a J-10 like that in my internet travels. I suspect it is used to highlight "the possibilities" for such new capabilities.

 

[LowObservable]

J-10 Block 60?

 

[Deino]

Yes ... that's a fake, but funny, the guy speaking here to the press is Mao Xinyu Mao Zedong's grandson !! ... in several forums we were surprised to see him in a uniform ...

(Regarding that I'm born also in 1970 I think I'm looking much better ! ;D)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Xinyu

This type of J-10-version is sometimes labeled J-10Gai with "Gai" meaning "improved" like the Russian "bis" or even JH-10 but nevertheless it's onyl a nice CG:

Cheers, Deino

 

[airman]

iar-95 and J-10 seems influenced by F-16 and fighters made by Dassault , especially J-10 seems a fusion with an F-16 and Rafale or an other plane : just Eurofighter !

 

[Deino]

iar-95 and J-10 seems influenced by F-16 and fighters made by Dassault , especially J-10 seems a fusion with an F-16 and Rafale or an other plane : just Eurofighter !

Sorry, but You have have to keep in mind the timeline of each project !

The J-10 has its roots in a fighter project called J-9 which ran in parallel to the J-8 and finally failed ... some sources state that the final iteration of this bird was later influenced also by the IAI Lavi, but I don't agree with that (even if I don't deny a close cooperation between Chian and Israel maybe here). Both European fighter - the Typhoon and Rafale started much later ...

Deino

 

[Deino]

During the last weeks more pictures became available of J-10s with IFR-probes ..

This very nice picture is from Huitong's site ... sadly the number on the tail is too small to identify the unit.

Besides that there seems to be a different antenna-fit on the back-spine (I think I remember this one on an earlier bird at the CFTE) !

Cheers, Deino

 

[Deino]

About two years after its formal declassification ... hopefully its first AIR-SHOW appearance ...

http://www.top81.cn/fangwu/viewthread.php?tid=75220&page=1#pid283694


(And I CAN't be there !!!!!!!!!) :-[

 

[rousseau]

Sadly this one was put logo on the fuselage

 

[Deino]

Sadly this one was put logo on the fuselage

Yes .... ???
But here are some more:
http://www.top81.cn/fangwu/viewthread.php?tid=74823&extra=&page=2

Deino

 

[sferrin]

We ever going to see some of these at Paris or Farnborough? ???

 

[Deino]

We ever going to see some of these at Paris or Farnborough? ???

??? Good question ... I think that depends on how serious AVIC.I will proceed with exports !

Anyway I think its quite an impressive sign of confidence in/to this design ... and additionally a shift to more openess.

IMO never before any Chinese fighter from a regular operational regiment was shown on an Airshow ... and here they show the J-8 (sadyl only an old "D"), the JH-7 and the J-10 + ... !

Deino

 

[Deino]

Just a video on the Zhuhai preparations !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBZLghZ3-Tw

Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBZLghZ3-Tw

posted by unknauthr on http://www.sinodefenceforum.com

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

more J-10 footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPk64VlPSPE

 

[Deino]

Regarding the title of this tread !!!

Unpacking a Chengdu J-10

Just unbelieveable a few years ago !!! :

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2008-11-04/114402_999991.htm

and

http://news.sina.com.cn/hdphoto/2008/1104/58.html

Enjoy them, Deino

 

[Deino]

very nice ... my current most favourite ! :-*

 

[Deino]

For all who always wanted to count the rivets on a J-10 !!!

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23&st=2150 all pictures are 1600 x 1066 pixel and about 1 Mb large !

Deino

 

[sferrin]

Did you happen to snag them before the forum got shut down?

 

[Deino]

Did you happen to snag them before the forum got shut down?

YES .... all !!!

I will upload them somewhere and post the links later.

CHeers, Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

here

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

more

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Last few

 

[Deino]

Thanks for posting them !

Especially this one is intersting (post-11-1226051408.jpg) - the first one in the third series of pictures - as it shows for the first time the typical Chinese formation-flying markings.

Deino

 

[Deino]

Just found an interesting note here: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/


Blog contributor Vladimir Karnozov, a Moscow-based aerospace journalist, visited the Zhuhai air show this week, and files this sobering report about the new J-10 fighter.

ZHUHAI -- There is an old anecdote. The optimists around the world learn English. The pessimists, Chinese. But down-to-earth study the Kalashnikov assault rifle.

I think it is time for the down-to-earth crowd to study their rifles using Chinese manuals!

Two years ago every important source told me, let's wait two years and see what comes of China's new J-10 fighter.

Now everyone I trust says the Chinese pulled it off, and the J-10 has proven a tremendously successful program.

I watched how the J-10 flew over Zhuhai, in 30 degree Celsius temperatures and high humidity.

The pilot did none of the show tricks like post-stall or tail slide or pitch-back, but turns were very tight, initial rate of turn very high. It was clear there is a lot of potential in this airplane to achieve the same maneuvers more quickly.

The pilot rarely used afterburner and the degrees of canard deflection were small. Still, the airplane flew very well. I reckon it will beat F-16C or MiG-29/SMT easily.

Chinese have already completed over 100 J-10s and they have bought more Russian engines for next series.

I do not think they would buy more Flankers since the J-10 is as good as the Flanker, to say the least.

Chinese military said "no" to local engine makers and "no" to local makers of some key systems, instead buying these critical items directly from Russia.

As for AWACS support, it is present with 4 A-50 equipped with KJ-2000 radars and it seems the Chinese have bought a special version of the Ka-31, although very much different from the Indian navy version. Apparently with a new radar.

If proper tactics are used, the PLAAF can beat Taiwanese opponents in conventional air war. Unless the US makes it into a full scale world-for-world battle, the central committee of the Chinese Communist Party does have a chance.

A Russian aerospace journalist, who praises a Chinese fighter .... I can't believe it !!!

Deino

 

[Creative]

Modellers rejoice, remarkable photos Overscan thank you for sharing them.

 

[Deino]

Finally !!!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

More J-10 pics, from http://www.calf.cn

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

more

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

more

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

last one.

Examination of the closeups leads me to conclude J-10 is mostly aluminium in construction. Appears to have no large scale use of composites.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Found the original source of those J-10 closeups and some shots were missing. Here's some more.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here's a last two J-10 pics

 

[rousseau]

[flash=600,600]http://www.youtube.com/v/65fHQfuu4S0[/flash]
Here is the best video concerning J-10 I ever seen

 

[Deino]

At CDF is an interesting interview Interview with the chief test pilot of J10, Senior Col. Lei Qiang:

Just to discuss ...

This is an interview of Senior Colonel Lei Qiang, chief test pilot of J-10. The pilots that flew J-10 in Zhu hai air show are his student and student of student.

Interesting points in the article.
1. J-10 project started in the mid 80's with no specific name, only called "3rd gen fighter" or "New fighter".

2. When they first started selecting perspective test pilots, only fighter in China that had HUD was J-7M. So they used a Yes/No test to screen them. That is, each person was given 0.3 second to view a HUD image, and determine if it's correct, and they had to identify 100 pictures in a row with no mistake to pass. Lei Qiang was the first to pass, second was Lu Jun, third was a staff officer from an airbase.

3. The three were later sent to Israel to fly LAVI simulator in 1986,

4. They formed a 19 member test pilot team, of the 19, 9 were selected as "first batch test pilot" group, participating fully in the design process. Then 5 of the 9 formed the chief test pilot group for the actual test flight.

5. Lei Qiang and Lu Jun were sent to Russian in 1993 for test pilot training, practicing tail spin and Su27/30. But Lu Jun later died in an accident, so Lei Qiang was the only one flying the entire test flight phase.

6. The change of J-10's landing gear door from two piece to three piece were Lei Qiang's suggestion.

7. Lei Qiang flew tail spin recovery in Russia to familiarize with triangle wing tail spin recovery, then on Su27 to familiarize with 3rd gen fighter operation

8. The shape of control sticks, placement and function of buttons on the stick and around the displays are the work of test pilots.

9. Lei Qiang first saw the full scale wooden mock up of J-10 around 1990

10. He helped to determine placement of instruments, canopy opening, feedback on the stick, controls on electric switch, engines, etc.

11. Lei Qiang first met Israeli scientists in 1984, as part of test program for firing PL-8 on J-7. Firing PL-8 will cause J-7 to roll sideway 40 degrees, and if pilot compensate right away, the smoke from missile to stop the engine.

12. Lei Qiang had NO EXPERIENCE FIRING MISSILES in 1984?! (Shocking, isn't it.) He didn't know to compensate for the roll right away, but that's how his engine didn't stop from the smoke. And that's the solution they decided on, so when PLAAF J-7 fires a PL-8, the force from the launch will cause the plane to roll, and the pilots are instructed to not compensate for 2 seconds. (Another typical PLA non-technical solution to a very technical problem)

13. From this experience, Israelis told Chinese that their plane sucks, and Israel has something far better. (Guess that's how they wind up going to Israel to fly the Lavi simulator)

14. When they first started designing the J-10, neither the designer nor the pilots can conceptually grasps the operation of FBW system.

15. 60% of the technology used on J-10 are new.

16. Lei Qiang's first real experience on a FBW aircraft is on a British converted LearJet in 1995. There he experienced what PIO could be like.

17. When conducting high speed taxi test, they almost could not test lifting up the front wheel because CAC's runway is too short.

18. Lei Qiang did flight demonstration of J-10 to foreign guests, and probably did a tail slide then going directly into a vertical climb. Exact wording are: After vertical climb and turn, I did not turn on afterburner right away and accelerate vertically, instead allowed aircraft to drop slightly before turning on afterburner.

19. The first flight of J-10 were done in unstable configuration.

20. First flight were in 1998, march 23rd

21. During first flight, the responsiveness of J-10 so surprised lei Qiang that he shouted, "WTF!"

22. J-10's instantaneous roll rate is more than 200 degrees/sec.

23. During the first two years of J-10's test flight, Lei Qiang was the only test pilot! (another shocker and WTF, what if he crashed and died or injured? The whole project could have died)

24. 04 prototype tested a new engine. 05 prototype was testing domestication. (What does this mean? J-10 wasn't domestic up to that point?)

25. To train to be a test pilot, Lei Qiang had went to Israel, Russia, UK, Sweden and Egypt for training, Russia for 5 times.

26. J-10 is not a copy of Lavi. Israelis taught them how to design aircraft, such as using computer for design, simulation and analysis.

27. Israelis saw J-10 taking off with full external load. (Wonder when did that happen)

28. Maximum sustained turning G load for J-10 is 8.9. Lei Qiang flew it starting at Mach 1.2, 1000 meter, full afterburn. Speed dropped to Mach 0.6 after a while. (I guess they aren't kidding when they say triangle wing bleed energy during tight turn) Lei Qiang was 48 at the time, seemed to have broken a record for highest age and longest time flying at 8.9G.

29. J-10 was transfered to flight test academy after 05 prototype flew.

30. 01 prototype flew to academy on a lot of internal fuel (I'm guessing full internal) and drop tanks. After arriving at Xian, he still had more than 1 hour of fuel left before reaching landing weight.

31. J-10's turning radius is much, much smaller than J-7. J-7 seems to take 30 seconds to complete a full turn.

32. According to Lei Qiang, F-16's horizontal turning capability doesn't measure up to J-10. J-10's vertical turning capability is even with F-16. Su-27's vertical maneuver capability is stronger than J-10 because it has higher T/W ratio. Horizontal turning is even. But rolling rate J-10 is much better. At Mach 1.2, Su-27 has roll rate of 20-30 degrees/sec,(this has to be a mistake) while J-10 has more than 200 degrees/sec.

33. According to Lei Qiang, J-10's instrument is better than F-16 (although this is probably only true compared with Pakistan's F-16A) and much superior to Su-27.

34. J-10 can perform the Cobra maneuver, up to 160 degrees . (This would be a sight to see if it's true)

Source: http://www.china-defense.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23&st=2225&gopid=95295& (post: 2233)

Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I've made a rough translation of the whole interview. Some more key points:

1984 - party decision to create new fighter, but initially work is in basic technology research

"The wingspan is actually more than 9 meters" [I imagine dimensions OUGHT to be forthcoming after Zhuhai, but still not seen any definitive ones!]

First flight lasted 17 minutes.

I believe he says he flew 01, 03, 04, and 05 on their first flights, not that he was the only person flying them all. Perhaps a Chinese speaking person can comment?

I also believe 04 tested an improved engine, not a new engine.

05, he does refer to domestic manufacture, but I assume of perhaps the FBW system, not the plane as a whole- or who built 01, 03 and 04?

Regarding the Lavi connection:

In fact, LAVI at that time only flew more than 80 flights before cancellation, many design have not carried on the validation by testing, also has many flaws and the insufficiency! In regard to LAVI, the good ideas we absorb, not good, we modify. For example, the LAVI maximum velocity can only amount to Mach 1.8, we may amount to Mach 2.0; Our aircraft body withdraws the waist to be bigger, the transonic drag is small, meets the area rule--We improve the place were too many! Therefore, when Israel's designers see we completely external state take-off, they are very strange! This is our achievement!

We design the aircraft to be just like the elementary student learns to write.The mimicking J-6, J-7 studies the regular script, then, in the design JH-7 time started to write the good regular script; J-10 to the research and development we to start on many places individually to explore has displayed, classified as the grass script; To 4 generations aircraft, we do not need to receive the copy book again the limit, might from become a body!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I think also that he didn't mean that J-10 could do a Cobra to 160 degrees, but was saying that if he said that the J-10 could do 160 degree Cobra compared to 110 degrees for the Su-27 it would be a meaningless figure, as neither is of practical use.

 

[Deino]

Just to quote from the PLAAF-tread at the Key-Forum:

http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/090316/1/1g4j7.html

16 March 2009:
The J-10 that's ground-displayed at Cheng Du Group entrance since October 2008, is disassembled and moved to Bei Jing Xiao Tang Shan aviation museum.
This article claims the J-10 three sizes are: 16.43 m length, 9.75 m width, 5.43 m height.

So it seems (if they are confirmed), that my estimations for IAPR no. 22 with

16.14 m length (w.o. pitot), 9.36 m width, 5.30 m height

were not that wrong !!!

Deino ;D