Can the V-22 be used as a presidential transport helicopter?

[AeroFranz]

So far from what I have read the V-22 in its initial combat deployment to Iraq has done remarkably well, the problems currently regarding this aircraft now, from what I have read has been the production, the distribution and the inventory of spare parts for this aircraft.

This month's issue of Rotor & Wing, quoting the GAO, seems to disagree. See the attached article (I apologize for the poor format; i wish I could have just copied and pasted text but it was a picture file).

The tilt-rotor technology does not seem to be the culprit in itself, but the operational history so far is underwhelming just the same. If this continues to be the case, I don't know how much longer the proponents of the V-22 will be able to keep it alive.

 

[luedo34]

Well, the Marines themselves seem to be pretty content with the Osprey. Why should they defend the V-22 if they were not satisfied with its performance?
Are they afraid of being left with nothing if the V-22 gets axed?

 

[Woody]

You seem to have missed the point of my botched photoshop work on the V-22 picture - in Marine One colours or perhaps it's just the usual sense of humour Failure.

Though not myself American and being normally an advocate of fairness in all things, I find it bazaar that the US wants the world to see it's president having to use a foreign helicopter (VH-71) over a domestic product (V-22).

For a revolutionary, if troubled, programme this would be the ultimate endorsement and marketing shop window. Maybe this is bureaucratic rule following gone mad or the real acid test - do they dare put the president in it?

Cheers, Woody

 

[TomS]

There are some really prosaic reasons the Osprey could not be used for Marine One. The biggest, believe it or not, may be downdraft issues. A V-22 would probably mess up the White House grounds pretty badly thanks to its high velocity rotor/propwash. Some years ago the Marines tested a CH-53, which has similar downdraft issues, and it knocked town a tree bordering the South Lawn, which was the end of that experiment.

 

[yasotay]

While I doubt that a V-22 will become the Presidential Rotorcraft anytime soon I think that it would a fine form of transportation. It would allow the President to travel somewhat more economically around the East Coast vice chuffing over to Andrews getting on Air Force One and flying to New York, etc. Remember the current Presidential Helicopter had been in service for a while before it was deemed suitable for the task.

Then there is the public perception that the President of the United States of America would be riding in something slightly more twenty-first century. Conventional helicopters are perceived by the public as very twentieth century. It would be like Air Force One being a Super Connie... with turboprops maybe, but still a prop-driven aircraft.

 

[CFE]

You could always argue that if the president is going to allow Marines to ride in the V-22, he should set the example and use it as his personal Marine One. But it would be wasteful to employ the V-22 in this role (would the president's V-22 be called a VV-22?) if its speed and range advantages aren't essential to the mission.

 

[silkmonkey]

But maybe they would be? I am thinking say the flight envelope for the V-22 can easily put cities like NYC, Atlanta and Miami within reach quickly, and maybe quicker than Air Force One? Therefore that would negate the President using Air Force One for trips to cities say like NYC that only take a short time to get to. This would mean that Only the president and a small staff were to go on board the Marine One V-22 and not extended staff and certainly NO PRESS!!! The Press for a change would have to find their own way to where the President would be for a political function. Like I said ...the V-22 Marine One would be used only for short distance hops...Like to NYC... Just a thought it will never happen because Air force One (as does the "NEACP") gives the commander and chief the option in an emergency for immediate evacuation and for some sort of Continuity of Government during a crisis, I don't think the V-22 can be arranged internally to handle (except for short distance flights) that type of mission as well.

 

[Stargazer]

Interesting thread, though most of it got pretty off-topic a long time ago!

From a strictly patriotic point of view, I do think that a President should set the example and use an aircraft that is produced within his own country. Sadly the tendancy to go for foreign aircraft/cars when it comes to equipping the military/postal services/ambulances is worldwide today, and mainly dictated by economical reasons.

As for the V-22 being used as a VV-22 presidential transport, I'm sure that if I were an American citizen I would pretty much fear for the President's safety! Don't get me wrong, I was one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the V-22 you'll ever find when the program took off in the mid-eighties, having marveled at the XV-15's flight demonstration. Unfortunately, the V-22 program has proved to be everything the XV-15 was not: it is heavy, disgraceful, has been ridden with all sorts of technical problems since its inception, and after 22 years of flight-testing is still waiting to come into full operational use. Talk about a white elephant!

 

[funkychinaman]

Back to the matter at hand, I've been thinking the exact same thing for weeks now. I always thought the VH-71 program was idiotic, not only because we were spending billions on just a handful of helicopters, but that we were going out of our way to buy a new design that's not in US military service.

What's wrong with the helicopters that are already in US service? HMX-1 already operates H-60, H-46s, and H-53s. The H-60 might be too small, the H-46 too old, why not the H-53? And why not the V-22? The V-22 has twice the speed and range of a VH-71, and it's already in US service. Why fly from the White House lawn to Andrews, board AF1, fly to JFK or EWR, then fly to the UN, when they can fly straight from the White House lawn to the UN?

 

[TomS]

Already answered in this very thread -- the H-53 is too powerful -- it tends to knock down the landscape on the great lawn. It's also too big to fit inside C-5 without some major disassembly-- another key requirement for the Presidential helicopter.

Same basic issues with the V-22 -- too much downdraft and too big to airlift when the President travels.

 

[funkychinaman]

Well, HMX-1 still can bring VH-60's when they go overseas, and they do, and if it comes down to a choice between changing the landscape of the White House lawn versus spending $13 billion, guess which one this taxpayer is going to go with.

 

[AeroFranz]

I always thought the VH-71 program was idiotic, not only because we were spending billions on just a handful of helicopters

I believe most of the cost increase was due to requirement creep.
Modify any helicopter (US or foreign, in service or not) to meet those requirements, and you end up with a similar tab. Maybe we should have a second look at how the VH-71 is equipped and if it really needs all that junk.

we were going out of our way to buy a new design that's not in US military service.

Chances are that VH-71 would have also been bought for CSAR-X.

 

[Woody]

The triumvirate of Bell Helicopter, Boeing and Sikorsky has combined to produce only one all-new aircraft type in the past 30 years - the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey tiltrotor. No new aircraft model is in the pipeline, so nothing new is likely to enter production within the next decade.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/16/322532/us-rotorcraft-makers-face-10-year-debacle.html

So if the V-22's too big maybe it's not so surprising they went European.

Cheers, Woody

 

[funkychinaman]

"I believe most of the cost increase was due to requirement creep.
Modify any helicopter (US or foreign, in service or not) to meet those requirements, and you end up with a similar tab. Maybe we should have a second look at how the VH-71 is equipped and if it really needs all that junk."

But we're talking about stuff that would go into any helicopter that won. If we're just talking about the flying aspect, was it so hard to find a helicopter in the US inventory that met those requirements? For less than $13 billion?

"Chances are that VH-71 would have also been bought for CSAR-X."

Yeah, well, that's just counting your chickens before they're hatched. Now that they're redoing it (remember when procurement wasn't a series of do-overs?) do you think the H-71's chances have been hurt now that the VH-71 project has been canceled?

 

[funkychinaman]

The Kestrel was competing against the Sikorsky H-92 in the VXX competition. I'd arguing the same thing today even if the results had been different, because the H-92 isn't in US service either.

How important is shuttling the president? Does it justify the resources (financial and manpower) of buying a design not already in service with US forces?

No one has a problem with Cadillac or Lincoln customizing armored limos for the president, partly because there aren't exactly production armored limos out there, and so because it doesn't lost $13 billion to do so.

 

[F-14D]

"I believe most of the cost increase was due to requirement creep.
Modify any helicopter (US or foreign, in service or not) to meet those requirements, and you end up with a similar tab. Maybe we should have a second look at how the VH-71 is equipped and if it really needs all that junk."

But we're talking about stuff that would go into any helicopter that won. If we're just talking about the flying aspect, was it so hard to find a helicopter in the US inventory that met those requirements? For less than $13 billion?

"Chances are that VH-71 would have also been bought for CSAR-X."

Yeah, well, that's just counting your chickens before they're hatched. Now that they're redoing it (remember when procurement wasn't a series of do-overs?) do you think the H-71's chances have been hurt now that the VH-71 project has been canceled?

A bit off-topic, but it's worthy of note that the current Administrations seems to have little interest in continuing CSAR-X at all.

 

[F-14D]

Already answered in this very thread -- the H-53 is too powerful -- it tends to knock down the landscape on the great lawn. It's also too big to fit inside C-5 without some major disassembly-- another key requirement for the Presidential helicopter.

Same basic issues with the V-22 -- too much downdraft and too big to airlift when the President travels.

The downdraft is a matter of opinion and operational requirements. Might be a problem, might not. Don't forget that Mr. Obama traveled via V-22 in Iraq.

Regarding airlift and fitting in the C-5, that's not a problem, since unlike other candidates for the role, the V-22 would fly itself to wherever the President was traveling.

 

[funkychinaman]

I did a little more reading and I saw that the VH-71 was supposed to replace both the VH-3 and the VH-60. Replacing the VH-3 makes sense, they're old, and they've been almost completely phased out of US service. But why the VH-60s? Not only are H-60s still being produced, they're going to remain in US service for decades to come.

 

[F-14D]

I did a little more reading and I saw that the VH-71 was supposed to replace both the VH-3 and the VH-60. Replacing the VH-3 makes sense, they're old, and they've been almost completely phased out of US service. But why the VH-60s? Not only are H-60s still being produced, they're going to remain in US service for decades to come.

Size of the cabin, I would imagine. For example, even though they love their HH-60 Jayhawks, one thing the Coast Guard really misses from their HH-3F Pelicans was its nice large cabin.

 

[silkmonkey]

Its back in the press!!! What I talked about last year the US DOD is considering the V-22 osprey as a serious contender for Marine One...Everyone I apprieciate the comments even the ones that bashed my question but maybe just maybe somewhere along the lines some proper thinking heads will prevail and this aircraft will be procured and some sort of standardization of a multi-purpose aircraft frame will be finally used by the US Armed Forces

 

[F-14D]

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2013-05-10/navy-issues-rfp-presidential-helo-v-22-joins-fleet

 

[Stargazer]

I guess that kind of puts an end to the need for this topic, right?! ;D

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

I guess that kind of puts an end to the need for this topic, right?! ;D

It won't be transporting POTUS though. His entourage yes, him/her no. (unless its a special circumstance)

 

[F-14D]

I guess that kind of puts an end to the need for this topic, right?! ;D

It won't be transporting POTUS though. His entourage yes, him/her no. (unless its a special circumstance)

Well, POTUS has already used the Osprey when he's abroad. One particular sentence caught my eye: "Boeing has said it will evaluate the Navy’s requirements to possibly offer the CH-47 Chinook or Bell Boeing V-22". So it's possible Besides, how would it look if the Pres. and his entourage and the press all took off at the same time, but POTUS had to yell, "Hey wait up for me! I'm your leader". ;D

 

[Stargazer]

Took me a few seconds to figure out what you guys meant with "POTUS"... : ;D

In all logic, the new transport ought to be designated the VV-22B, and that's what I believe will happen... except if some smartass penpusher in the Pentagon or in Washington decides that people could mistake the double "V" for a "W"... :

 

[elmayerle]

Think about the direction the engine exhaust is pointing when the thing is landing or taking off. Now imagine that on the White House lawn.

Bell has studied several work-arounds for that. I know of at least one that was mocked up. This, by itself, does not exclude the V-22 fro this role. Too, I've perused the presentation on the VV-22, it's not that outlandish.

 

[elmayerle]

I should note that one advantage the V-22 has over the other competitors is the ability to "get out of Dodge" far quicker than any of the others. There may be times when this is needed.

 

[F-14D]

They are already in use, here's a shot of the arrival at Martha's Vineyard at the start of the latest vacation.

 

[Bill Walker]

From a recent US press release, the V-22 will not carry the president, but only "support" staff and equipment. Like the beefy gentlemen in the cheap suits in the picture.

 

[F-14D]

From a recent US press release, the V-22 will not carry the president, but only "support" staff and equipment. Like the beefy gentlemen in the cheap suits in the picture.

This was discussed elsewhere a while back. When the V-22s joined the fleet earlier this year it was noted that although Obama has flown in the Osprey on numerous occasions, HMX-1s present V-22s are acting as support craft. One indicator that these do not normally transport the President is that they lack the white top of presidential rotorcraft.

I posted the pic just to show that hte V-22s are now in use. Those beefy gentlemen are support staff and secret service. Oh, and Bo- the Presidential dog (not wearing a suit).

 

[RavenOne]

i saw HMX-1 MV-22B four years ago at RAF Mildenhall in the week of Obama arrivjg in U.K. April 2016. HMx-1 Marine One and Two Sikorsky VH-3D and trio of MV-22B did rehearsal flight from EGUN into London , escorted by National Police Air Support Airbus Helicopters H145.

The Mv-22B self deployed across the pond from MCAF Quantico stopped overnight at Lajes AFB then flew up to the. ‘hall.

So here are my photos below.

cheers

 

[elmayerle]

All I wanted to know is can this aircraft be used as a good Presidential aircraft since they are looking at getting rid of the VH-71 helicopter program?

Bell-Boeing did propose a VV-22B version and looked at some unique approaches to deal with exhaust impingement on surfaces like the White House lawn. It's doable, but 'twould take a fair bit of redesign and you've got a very tight window to meet to set down there without hitting the trees. The V-22 has been through a lot, but they have sorted out the dangerous aspects and have proposals for dealing with some of the other problems.

 

[Moose]

A Bell win in FVL would seem to make a "white top" tilt-rotor more of a possibility down the road. While the focus remains on VH-92, having a few faster, longer-range aircraft might start to look pretty good in the mid/late 30s.

 

[fightingirish]

Bell proposed (again) an executive version of the V-22 to Head of States and 'VVIPs' last week.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1232634550683160576

 

[jsport]

How Bell has tried to sell us all the tilt-rotor concept for four decades multiplying all sorts of D-something concepts that were all attractive and seemingly viable, it is beyond me how they came up with something as complicated and unimpressive as the white elephant they call the Osprey (surely an insult to that high-flying bird!)

see above.

 

[TomS]

A Bell win in FVL would seem to make a "white top" tilt-rotor more of a possibility down the road. While the focus remains on VH-92, having a few faster, longer-range aircraft might start to look pretty good in the mid/late 30s.

Sorry for the late reply, but I think it's pretty unlikely that the VH-92 will be replaced that quickly.

Plus, if there are rare occasions when the speed of a tiltrotor is needed, HMX-1 has some green-top Ospreys that can be used.

 

[Moose]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1826019931298611459

View: https://twitter.com/jeffmason1/status/1826019931298611459?t=Wuvrhrc1PMiFk-juSlRdAg&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1826028935848800602

View: https://twitter.com/onestpress/status/1826028935848800602?t=vn9khL8qdKfU8czuFqmlRg&s=19

 

[Scott Kenny]

All I wanted to know is can this aircraft be used as a good Presidential aircraft since they are looking at getting rid of the VH-71 helicopter program?

The issue was that the professional paranoiacs that write the requirements for VVIP transport weren't totally happy with the early reliability of the Osprey.

"I believe most of the cost increase was due to requirement creep.
Modify any helicopter (US or foreign, in service or not) to meet those requirements, and you end up with a similar tab. Maybe we should have a second look at how the VH-71 is equipped and if it really needs all that junk."

But we're talking about stuff that would go into any helicopter that won. If we're just talking about the flying aspect, was it so hard to find a helicopter in the US inventory that met those requirements? For less than $13 billion?

"Yankee White" production rules are obscenely expensive. Designed by (or design vetted by) cleared US citizens, built in the US by cleared US citizens working at a US-company owned facility, maintained in the US by cleared US citizens... and that goes recursively all the way down to individual components like engines and APUs and even bolts and rivets! It's insane.

 

[publiusr]

There are some really prosaic reasons the Osprey could not be used for Marine One. The biggest, believe it or not, may be downdraft issues.

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[GTX]

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