Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

[donnage99]

20% more thrust with new engines and 10% more range with CFTs
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/super-hornet-mods-added-to-export-list-25567/

 

[flanker]

It believe its the Spherical Laser/Missile Warning system described in the first image from Boeing.

Ala the SAAB one on Su-30MKM i guess.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Weren't the upgraded engines being offered for the Super Hornet more fuel efficient and durable as well?

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

^That's what they said to the Indians...

 

[quellish]

Oh lookee here...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Combat-Aircraft-Magazine/140704179286241#!/photo.php?fbid=181698828520109&set=a.156514791038513.27932.140704179286241

I wasn't able to find a Boeing press release covering this.

 

[donnage99]

........

 

[Deino]

....

 

[Matej]

Oh, I want the high res of this!

 

[lantinian]

I am so switching notification "ON" for this topic :

 

[fightingirish]

I wonder, if first that is a new aircraft or an old prototype and if second if those new modifications (IRST, CFT, Spherical Laser/Missile Warning system etc.) are real or just all a mock-up.
Seems we have to wait for tomorrow to get more info and conformation by Boeing and 'Aviation Leak'.
I presume, there will be a presentation/roll-out this following week just like with the Silent Eagle.
The weapons pod looks more to me like a JASSM "Trenta size" or a Recce Pod.
This "Superhornet Plus" needs also some new missiles under its wings.
Like a AIM-120D or even a ram-jet powered version, so that some "Tomcat/Phoenix" fans would be pleased...

 

[AeroFranz]

From the on-line AvWeek issue - I kept the captions which should answer some of the questions.

 

[sferrin]

Boy and I thought the "Super" Hornet was a pig. I wonder how sluggish this thing will be when they've slapped all that draggy crap on it. ???

 

[fightingirish]

Thanks, AeroFranz, for the cut-outs!

 

[donnage99]

Boy and I thought the "Super" Hornet was a pig. I wonder how sluggish this thing will be when they've slapped all that draggy crap on it. ???

It's better than hanging weapons and drop tanks out in the open.

 

[Matej]

http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/boeings-evolved-super-hornet-the-f-35-as-an-f-35-killer-and-it-sux-to-be-usmc-general-amos-military/

 

[sferrin]

http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/boeings-evolved-super-hornet-the-f-35-as-an-f-35-killer-and-it-sux-to-be-usmc-general-amos-military/

He's possibly the only person on the planet who's more biased against the F-35 than Bill Sweetman. But it's close.

 

[Sundog]

Boy and I thought the "Super" Hornet was a pig. I wonder how sluggish this thing will be when they've slapped all that draggy crap on it. ???

The CFT's actually reduce drag at high speed as they smooth out the area distribution at the transition from the fuselage to the wing. Also, I'd be willing to bet the weapons pod doesn't add anymore drag than the "canted out" weapons pylons do with weapons on them.

 

[sferrin]

Boy and I thought the "Super" Hornet was a pig. I wonder how sluggish this thing will be when they've slapped all that draggy crap on it. ???

The CFT's actually reduce drag at high speed as they smooth out the area distribution at the transition from the fuselage to the wing. Also, I'd be willing to bet the weapons pod doesn't add anymore drag than the "canted out" weapons pylons do with weapons on them.

Weapons pylons? I thought those were air-brakes.

 

[donnage99]

Weapons pylons? I thought those were air-brakes.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's called anti-gravity device.

 

[F-14D]

Boy and I thought the "Super" Hornet was a pig. I wonder how sluggish this thing will be when they've slapped all that draggy crap on it. ???

The CFT's actually reduce drag at high speed as they smooth out the area distribution at the transition from the fuselage to the wing. Also, I'd be willing to bet the weapons pod doesn't add anymore drag than the "canted out" weapons pylons do with weapons on them.

An interesting rumor here , maybe someone knows the truth:

If you look at pictures of early examples of the Super Bug, the pylons don't seem to cant out. The explanation I've come across seems to deal with the way the aircraft was promoted by DoD as an Official Wonderplane. Much was made that the E/F had two more pylons to carry weapons, than the A/D, another reason it was allegedly worth what it cost . The wording, though, was apparently carefully chosen. It could carry more weapons, but it couldn't actually fire powered weapons from the inner pylons due to clearance and safety issues. By later canting those (and consequently the others ) out, safe clearance was obtained, and they became fully usable. Of course, this meant more drag, which meant the range went down, but pay no attention to that. This also increased the frontal RCS, which was annoying because one of the things advertised about the E/F was its increased "stealthiness". Don't concern yourself about that, though, since the increased stealthiness only occurred when the plane wasn't carrying weapons, since once you hung stuff on the pylons, that stuff and the pylons themselves gave the a/c away.

 

[OM]

Weapons pylons? I thought those were air-brakes.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's called anti-gravity device.

...Those are the Ion Pods, where ion storms are monitored before the pilot prematurely ejects them so the red shirt assigned to Ion Pod duty gets tossed out as well.

 

[lantinian]

I so want to see now an F-15SE mockup with 3 of those Weapons Pods. 2 Under the wing and a centerline one, in addition to the 2 Conformal Weapons Bays. Probably its too close a call for the door clearance on side ones though.

4 AMRAAM missiles fit inside this Weapons Pod. That's the equivalent of the entire internal Air to Air capability of the F-35. The funny thing is that in terms of internal volume, there pods seam equal to just one of the 2 weapons bay that the F-35 has.

 

[sferrin]

I so want to see now an F-15SE mockup with 3 of those Weapons Pods. 2 Under the wing and a centerline one, in addition to the 2 Conformal Weapons Bays. Probably its too close a call for the door clearance on side ones though.

4 AMRAAM missiles fit inside this Weapons Pod. That's the equivalent of the entire internal Air to Air capability of the F-35. The funny thing is that in terms of internal volume, there pods seam equal to just one of the 2 weapons bay that the F-35 has.

Except the F-35 doesn't sacrifice range through added drag by hanging a zepplin on the wing. :

 

[LowObservable]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

To which purpose I will just leave this here.

 

[sferrin]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

To which purpose I will just leave this here.

A new aircraft program missed some milestones? Say it ain't so. :

 

[LowObservable]

Some?

 

[Arjen]

I'd say most.

 

[lantinian]

Except the F-35 doesn't sacrifice range through added drag by hanging a zepplin on the wing.

I like that for an unofficial codeword for the new weapons pods - "zeppelins"

So technically any aircraft caring the zeppelins trades range for reduced RCS. I am sure the Israeli AirForce will be one F-15 operator willing to make that sacrifice on their F-15Es.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

I seem to recall all of the aforementioned at one time or another predicting that the F-35 program was going to be cancelled or fail by now. The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced. Hardly an endorsement for their predictive ability.

There is a whopping difference between making milestone predictions as part of a massive engineering program and sitting on the sideline and expressing general dislike, bias, or anti F-35 feelings. If the former is inaccurate it does not validate the later.

 

[sferrin]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

I seem to recall all of the aforementioned at one time or another predicting that the F-35 program was going to be cancelled or fail by now. The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced. Hardly an endorsement for their predictive ability.

There is a whopping difference between making milestone predictions as part of a massive engineering program and sitting on the sideline and expressing general dislike, bias, or anti F-35 feelings. If the former is inaccurate it does not validate the later.

The thing that kills me is that there are MANY things that can happen that have an effect on cost and milestones that can have absolutely nothing to do with competence of the manufacturer or design team. Say your aircraft is 40% titanium and the cost of titanium skyrockets. The price goes up and LM has no control over that. Say a vendor for a specialized part has an equipment failure that cause a delay that delays milestones down the road. That's not something that could have been predicted and maybe it can be recovered from gracefully, maybe not. Bill, ELP, and Carlo rarely if ever point out root causes, it's simply "they're LATE! Lockheed is just a lying, incompetent, theiving bunch of SOBs! And the F-35 is useless!". Bill is terrified that the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development. (Not that I agree, but at least the reason for his bias is obvious.) Carlo still thinks if the F-35 dies Australia will get F-22s, and ELP? The best I can make out is the F-35 just isn't "cool" enough for him and he's getting a lot of mileage out of playing cheerleader for Bill. ELP is just a prolific blogger but Bill ought to be ashamed of himself.

 

[Arjen]

The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced.

Well, that,
- and the F-35B being put on two-year's probation;
- and the whole project being overdue;
- and costing rather more than expected;
- and sensor fusion being problematic.

I am not saying F-35 is not going to reach service. I think it will.
I am not saying that the current difficulties will not be overcome. Given enough time and money. much can be accomplished.

I do take issue with "The worst that has happened..." because, IMHO, that smacks of an overly optimistic view of the project.

Bill is terrified that the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development.

I don't know. Have you asked him? Even if that were true, what does that say about the validity of his arguments?

 

[bobbymike]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

I seem to recall all of the aforementioned at one time or another predicting that the F-35 program was going to be cancelled or fail by now. The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced. Hardly an endorsement for their predictive ability.

There is a whopping difference between making milestone predictions as part of a massive engineering program and sitting on the sideline and expressing general dislike, bias, or anti F-35 feelings. If the former is inaccurate it does not validate the later.

The thing that kills me is that there are MANY things that can happen that have an effect on cost and milestones that can have absolutely nothing to do with competence of the manufacturer or design team. Say your aircraft is 40% titanium and the cost of titanium skyrockets. The price goes up and LM has no control over that. Say a vendor for a specialized part has an equipment failure that cause a delay that delays milestones down the road. That's not something that could have been predicted and maybe it can be recovered from gracefully, maybe not. Bill, ELP, and Carlo rarely if ever point out root causes, it's simply "they're LATE! Lockheed is just a lying, incompetent, theiving bunch of SOBs! And the F-35 is useless!". Bill is terrified that the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development. (Not that I agree, but at least the reason for his bias is obvious.) Carlo still thinks if the F-35 dies Australia will get F-22s, and ELP? The best I can make out is the F-35 just isn't "cool" enough for him and he's getting a lot of mileage out of playing cheerleader for Bill. ELP is just a prolific blogger but Bill ought to be ashamed of himself.

sferrin - wrong! Everyone knows building a 5th generation stealth fighter for three services with the most complex avionics and software in the history of aviation is like building a Lego set. Just open the box, unfold the instructions and build ;D

 

[sferrin]

Bill is terrified that the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development.

I don't know. Have you asked him? Even if that were true, what does that say about the validity of his arguments?
[/quote]

He mentioned it in a post. I wish I'd have saved it, it'd be quoted in my sig. As for what it says about his arguements, it indicates a potential for bias (he's European), and as anybody who's read his diatribes can see, it's more than just potential. If he stuck to the facts and left out all the innuendo, disparaging remarks, and hyperbole he'd be doing himself a favor. But then that's not going to happen, he has a dragon to slay. :

 

[sferrin]

Someone needs to compare the predictions of the "biased" ELP, Sweetman & APA with the predictions out of the program office over the past few years and show how inaccurate they actually are.

I seem to recall all of the aforementioned at one time or another predicting that the F-35 program was going to be cancelled or fail by now. The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced. Hardly an endorsement for their predictive ability.

There is a whopping difference between making milestone predictions as part of a massive engineering program and sitting on the sideline and expressing general dislike, bias, or anti F-35 feelings. If the former is inaccurate it does not validate the later.

The thing that kills me is that there are MANY things that can happen that have an effect on cost and milestones that can have absolutely nothing to do with competence of the manufacturer or design team. Say your aircraft is 40% titanium and the cost of titanium skyrockets. The price goes up and LM has no control over that. Say a vendor for a specialized part has an equipment failure that cause a delay that delays milestones down the road. That's not something that could have been predicted and maybe it can be recovered from gracefully, maybe not. Bill, ELP, and Carlo rarely if ever point out root causes, it's simply "they're LATE! Lockheed is just a lying, incompetent, theiving bunch of SOBs! And the F-35 is useless!". Bill is terrified that the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development. (Not that I agree, but at least the reason for his bias is obvious.) Carlo still thinks if the F-35 dies Australia will get F-22s, and ELP? The best I can make out is the F-35 just isn't "cool" enough for him and he's getting a lot of mileage out of playing cheerleader for Bill. ELP is just a prolific blogger but Bill ought to be ashamed of himself.

sferrin - wrong! Everyone knows building a 5th generation stealth fighter for three services with the most complex avionics and software in the history of aviation is like building a Lego set. Just open the box, unfold the instructions and build ;D

True! Look how smooth the "Super" Hornet upgrade went. (As long as you ignore things like wing-drop, pylons that double as speed brakes, etc. )

 

[Arjen]

it indicates a potential for bias (he's European)

That covers a lot of people, including many whose jobs depends on F-35-contracts.

I disagree with your view of Bill Sweetman. I have been reading his stuff since the early 'nineties. You might not agree with him, but I for one take him very seriously.

...innuendo, disparaging remarks, and hyperbole...

Are we talking about the same person?

In the meantime, what about "The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced."? I still think that is taking a rosy view of what's been going on.

 

[bobbymike]

it indicates a potential for bias (he's European)

That covers a lot of people, including many whose jobs depends on F-35-contracts.

I disagree with your view of Bill Sweetman. I have been reading his stuff since the early 'nineties. You might not agree with him, but I for one take him very seriously.

...innuendo, disparaging remarks, and hyperbole...

Are we talking about the same person?

In the meantime, what about "The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced."? I still think that is taking a rosy view of what's been going on.

I first started reading Bill Sweetman about 25 years ago (bought one of his books - Aircraft 2000) and generally find him informative and knowledgeable. However, his F-35 posts are vindictive and full of vitriol on occasion for the program, the contractors and even the politicians or defense secretary. I seem to recall AW&ST stopped him from reporting on the F-35 for a while because of a snarky unprofessional post at their website.

I don't know for a fact if Eurocentrism is behind it, but his writing is definitely different on that subject.

 

[sferrin]

it indicates a potential for bias (he's European)

That covers a lot of people, including many whose jobs depends on F-35-contracts.

I disagree with your view of Bill Sweetman. I have been reading his stuff since the early 'nineties. You might not agree with him, but I for one take him very seriously.

...innuendo, disparaging remarks, and hyperbole...

Are we talking about the same person?

In the meantime, what about "The worst that has happened is three widgets in the B model’s engine need to be replaced."? I still think that is taking a rosy view of what's been going on.

I first started reading Bill Sweetman about 25 years ago (bought one of his books - Aircraft 2000) and generally find him informative and knowledgeable. However, his F-35 posts are vindictive and full of vitriol on occasion for the program, the contractors and even the politicians or defense secretary. I seem to recall AW&ST stopped him from reporting on the F-35 for a while because of a snarky unprofessional post at their website.

I don't know for a fact if Eurocentrism is behind it, but his writing is definitely different on that subject.

x2. I've been reading his books for years, and in topics other than the F-35 he seems to be the same guy who's books I've been buying since the late 80's / early 90's, but more and more his F-35 stuff reads like the ravings of the most rabid fanboy.

 

[LowObservable]

"I seem to recall all of the aforementioned at one time or another predicting that the F-35 program was going to be cancelled or fail by now."

Really? I don't.

I think that there is a good deal of "shooting the messenger" going on here, along with some woolly thinking about things like titanium (seriously, how much of the cost of a highly engineered object like an airplane is raw material?) and a whole lot of denial about the real status of the program.

See the date on the attached. Summer of 2008 - with Block 3 DT due to be completed in mid-2013, that is, five years away.

We are now in 2011 and Block 3 DT is due to complete in mid-2016 - five and a half years out.

I don't think any of the "naysayers" ever predicted in 2008 that the program would make six months of negative process in the following three years, but here we are.

 

[donnage99]

Except the F-35 doesn't sacrifice range through added drag by hanging a zepplin on the wing.

I like that for an unofficial codeword for the new weapons pods - "zeppelins"

So technically any aircraft caring the zeppelins trades range for reduced RCS. I am sure the Israeli AirForce will be one F-15 operator willing to make that sacrifice on their F-15Es.

The pod is designed for the super hornet, which I assume that it is designed to align the RCS spikes with that of the super hornet. This leads to the question - will the pod be as effective anymore in term of RCS reduction when we hang it under a different aircraft?

 

[Arjen]

I'm happy to notice we're on topic again.