Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

[Josh_TN]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

 

[F-2]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

The ECRs were SEAD/DEAD. As I understand it they were quite different to the other fleets, internally.

Different engines too, really a bread apart.

 

[Deltafan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1471553789190619139

View: https://twitter.com/ChrisAltenhof/status/1471553789190619139?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1471553789190619139%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.air-defense.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FChrisAltenhof%2Fstatus%2F1471553789190619139%3Ft%3DTJH9lFFq-nFQ1PROxjxgDw26s%3D19

 

[sferrin]

Berlin Security Conference 2021: Germany likely to issue letter of request for Super Hornet, Growler in January

Germany is expected to issue a letter of request (LOR) to the US government in the coming weeks, as it seeks to procure the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G...

www.janes.com

This is truly puzzling. The Growler I get. But they already have Typhoons. Why not just buy more of those instead of E/Fs?

The Typhoon isn't capable of carrying the B-61. Thus the E/F buy to replace Tonka IDS. Growler to replace the Tonka ECR.

Germany is carrying US nukes? So if the US says, "go nuke these guys" Germany will do it? I find that more than a little difficult to believe.

Google 'Nuclear sharing dual key'

Google "Post #272 on this page."

 

[Josh_TN]

Berlin Security Conference 2021: Germany likely to issue letter of request for Super Hornet, Growler in January

Germany is expected to issue a letter of request (LOR) to the US government in the coming weeks, as it seeks to procure the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G...

www.janes.com

This is truly puzzling. The Growler I get. But they already have Typhoons. Why not just buy more of those instead of E/Fs?

The Typhoon isn't capable of carrying the B-61. Thus the E/F buy to replace Tonka IDS. Growler to replace the Tonka ECR.

Germany is carrying US nukes? So if the US says, "go nuke these guys" Germany will do it? I find that more than a little difficult to believe.

Google 'Nuclear sharing dual key'

Google "Post #272 on this page."

The requirement hasn't changed. I agree the the likelihood of a German plane delivering a US nuke is incredibly remote, and I'd argue that it was almost as remote during the cold war - if a conflict went nuclear I can't imagine the Germans and Americans hashing out a nuke release; the US would just instantly use the forces it had on hand which in any case were better equipped for the job. But if the Germans don't have a delivery platform, then they'd probably have to send those B-61s home, and I don't think that's the message anyone wants to send to Russia right now.

 

[Josh_TN]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

The ECRs were SEAD/DEAD. As I understand it they were quite different to the other fleets, internally.

The F-35 is an out of the box SEAD/DEAD aircraft that is marketed as a 'fighter'. I have a hard time believing it wouldn't fill the ECR requirements. But as someone noted, the decision is likely political, as most major weapon systems purchases are.

 

[Josh_TN]

I'm sure if they asked the US to remove the bombs the US grudgingly would. The timing would be rather awful right now though. I'm actually surprised that nuclear sharing survived the 90's/early 2000's; I would have thought the non nuclear European nations would have retired the concept in that time frame.

 

[fightingirish]

The Super Hornet might be off and the F-35 might be back on the table for the German DoD.
Newest development suggest the Eurofighter in the EW role and a joint Dutch / German F-35 squadron.
As you know, the F-35 is certified to carry the "Silberlinge".
A source will follow later.
Edit:
Source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479730838749200385

View: https://twitter.com/Bjoern__M/status/1479730838749200385?t=POKN-iAcW9X0kOp-T8Cczw&s=19

 

[GTX]

The Navy hasn't bought new Growlers for many years and has fielded its objective inventory. In fact, re-starting Growler production probably has some element of fixed costs that Boeing would have to pay for Germany. Neither Congress, or the Navy (or Boeing for that matter) have recently brought up restarting Growler procurement for the Navy.

We'll at least one Growler is in work (see below) but I think you are right in that it is coming from USN stock:

RAAF to replace damaged Growler - Australian Defence Magazine

The US State Department has approved the sale of a former US Navy Boeing EA-18G Growler airborne electronic attack aircraft to Australia, to replace an almost-new example lost in a runway incident in ...

www.australiandefence.com.au

That said, I understand Boeing and indeed the USN (noting this would presumably be a FMS deal thus brokered through USN) are very keen on seeing the German deal go through.

 

[14yellow14]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1478705244821405698

View: https://twitter.com/alexgarcialonso/status/1478705244821405698?t=Q6mI8nVSguC83Ui95gDv_A&s=19

 

[starviking]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

I think the general difference between the F-35 and Growler’s electronic warfare capabilities is that the Growler has wider coverage, the F-35 a narrower beam focused on the forward arc.

 

[Josh_TN]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

I think the general difference between the F-35 and Growler’s electronic warfare capabilities is that the Growler has wider coverage, the F-35 a narrower beam focused on the forward arc.

Agreed, but the platform I was trying to compare it to was the electronic recon/SEAD Tornado. Does it have a wider band capability or a stand off jamming capability? If we are just talking about self defense and DEAD, you couldn't ask for a better weasel than the F-35.

 

[14yellow14]

I'm not sure what the ECR requirements are, but I'd be a little surprised if the F-35 couldn't fill them. What did the Tornados carry for jamming gear? I thought they were more recon than actual active jamming?

I think the general difference between the F-35 and Growler’s electronic warfare capabilities is that the Growler has wider coverage, the F-35 a narrower beam focused on the forward arc.

Agreed, but the platform I was trying to compare it to was the electronic recon/SEAD Tornado. Does it have a wider band capability or a stand off jamming capability? If we are just talking about self defense and DEAD, you couldn't ask for a better weasel than the F-35.

I think the Tornado ECR doesn't have any specific jamming capability (it has DECM pods like any Tornado variant), just the additional EW suite to locate radars/emitters and use the AGM-88 HARM against them. Similar to an F-16CJ.

The F-35A is a huge leap in capabilities for this role. The Growler would bring different capabilities beyond SEAD.

 

[Josh_TN]

The NGJ would probably bring a whole new raft of capabilities beyond the ECR Tornados that even the F-35 would not, if NGJ is part of the offer. I suspect that is the long term goal or else the Germans wouldn't be interested in the platform.

 

[Anduriel]

Berlin Security Conference 2021: Germany likely to issue letter of request for Super Hornet, Growler in January

Germany is expected to issue a letter of request (LOR) to the US government in the coming weeks, as it seeks to procure the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G...

www.janes.com

This is truly puzzling. The Growler I get. But they already have Typhoons. Why not just buy more of those instead of E/Fs?

The Typhoon isn't capable of carrying the B-61. Thus the E/F buy to replace Tonka IDS. Growler to replace the Tonka ECR.

Germany is carrying US nukes? So if the US says, "go nuke these guys" Germany will do it? I find that more than a little difficult to believe.

I'm more confused about B61 and why the hell there isn't a standoff nuke, like at least JSOW with nuclear warhead or JASSM.
Because nukes are needed against peer opponent and sure as hell Russia won't allow to use free fall bombs against its targets as long as Russian IADS is alive. And if it isn't, you don't need nukes anyway.

 

[sferrin]

Berlin Security Conference 2021: Germany likely to issue letter of request for Super Hornet, Growler in January

Germany is expected to issue a letter of request (LOR) to the US government in the coming weeks, as it seeks to procure the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G...

www.janes.com

This is truly puzzling. The Growler I get. But they already have Typhoons. Why not just buy more of those instead of E/Fs?

The Typhoon isn't capable of carrying the B-61. Thus the E/F buy to replace Tonka IDS. Growler to replace the Tonka ECR.

Germany is carrying US nukes? So if the US says, "go nuke these guys" Germany will do it? I find that more than a little difficult to believe.

I'm more confused about B61 and why the hell there isn't a standoff nuke, like at least JSOW with nuclear warhead or JASSM.
Because nukes are needed against peer opponent and sure as hell Russia won't allow to use free fall bombs against its targets as long as Russian IADS is alive. And if it isn't, you don't need nukes anyway.

For sure. Replace that B61 with a W80-equipped JASSM (or even just stuff the B61's warhead inside JASSM) or maybe stuff a small nuke in that new AARGM-ER.

 

[Josh_TN]

The US hasn't kept up on nuclear weapons since the end of the cold war. Old weapons are getting updates but no truly new ones are created, and in particular the tactical nukes are still old free fall types only just now being updated with INS guidance. In the case of nuclear sharing/dual key nukes, they are highly symbolic more than practical anyway - the idea that both the US and Germany would decide on using tactical nukes and then have German planes deliver them somehow before the US already delivered its own nukes unilaterally is a rather remote possibility. It's even more remote when you consider that Russian forces no longer border on any NATO nation outside Poland and the Baltics, so none of the nuclear sharing countries is remotely threatened such that defensive use would be needed.

The US has AGM-86 which has both a low and high yield option; that would probably be the US choice against a well defended tactical target that it decided it had to nuke (EDIT: actually for the US, stealth delivery of a B-61 still would likely be preferred). Additionally there is a new option in the W-76 mod2 which is low yield, but since it is mounted on an SLBM that does introduce some questions about opponent response.

 

[GTX]

Boeing expands partnerships with German industry

Boeing has expanded its industrial partnership strategy in Germany in support of the F/A-18 Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler offering to the German military.

www.aero-mag.com

 

[GTX]

New German government revisits Tornado replacement options

Germany is once again weighing its options for replacing the country’s aging Tornado aircraft fleet, which could put the F-35 back on the table.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Boeing pledges expanded German industry involvement if the nation buys the F-18

While prospective local partners remained unnamed, Boeing claims its outreach effort would amount to deals worth about $4 billion.

www.defensenews.com

 

[sferrin]

What is this tube-looking thing wrapped around the canopy and going back to the tail?

 

[Manuducati]

Paint...

 

[sferrin]

Paint...

LOL

 

[TomcatViP]

U.S. Navy Sending 6 'Growler' Planes to Germany as Ukraine War Rages

A senior Defense Department official said the planes would be "flying missions in support of Eastern flank deterrence and defense" but not engaging Russian forces.

www.newsweek.com

 

[rooster]

U.S. Navy Sending 6 'Growler' Planes to Germany as Ukraine War Rages

A senior Defense Department official said the planes would be "flying missions in support of Eastern flank deterrence and defense" but not engaging Russian forces.

www.newsweek.com

Soooo can they turn on the jamming tech while flying along the Polish boarder and jam whatever is in distance or is that provocative?

 

[donnage99]

U.S. Navy Sending 6 'Growler' Planes to Germany as Ukraine War Rages

A senior Defense Department official said the planes would be "flying missions in support of Eastern flank deterrence and defense" but not engaging Russian forces.

www.newsweek.com

Soooo can they turn on the jamming tech while flying along the Polish boarder and jam whatever is in distance or is that provocative?

there's no russian jet over western ukraine anyway. the only thing they jamming would be ukrainian jets still flying sorties (20 sorties a day still)

 

[TomcatViP]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

 

[rooster]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Exactly

 

[NeilChapman]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Exactly

What is 'a range' of the range, 500+, 1000+, 1500+?

 

[rooster]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Exactly

What is 'a range' of the range, 500+, 1000+, 1500+?

Those numbers are classified but certainly there is over the horizon ability and not line of sight.

 

[NeilChapman]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Exactly

What is 'a range' of the range, 500+, 1000+, 1500+?

Those numbers are classified but certainly there is over the horizon ability and not line of sight.

That is interesting. I was wondering if, in future, a less than stealthy drone could carry that gear, and remotely manage the pod or even a series of pods.

 

[totoro]

Anywhere from a few dozen miles to a few hundred miles, depending on just what it's trying to jam.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1512287765362356231

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/Boeing_In/status/1512287765362356231

 

[kcran567]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Asking an honest question, but wouldn't that be an immediate act of war/aggression specifically targeting Russia, on behalf of Ukraine in the War? Wouldn't USA/Nato actively jamming against Russian forces be an act of War? It seems like the situation can escalate if there is equipment, Growler jamming, etc. being sent in and around Nato countries while aimed against Russia.

 

[TomcatViP]

It's a valid question and the answer is unambiguously positive IMOHO. Then there is much more a Growler can do there and that every major military nation on earth agrees on principle: like collecting and analyzing signals and be there as a deterring force against any attempt of cyber attacks on NATO countries.

 

[NeilChapman]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Asking an honest question, but wouldn't that be an immediate act of war/aggression specifically targeting Russia, on behalf of Ukraine in the War? Wouldn't USA/Nato actively jamming against Russian forces be an act of War? It seems like the situation can escalate if there is equipment, Growler jamming, etc. being sent in and around Nato countries while aimed against Russia.

Well, first you have to prove it. ;-)

 

[rooster]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Asking an honest question, but wouldn't that be an immediate act of war/aggression specifically targeting Russia, on behalf of Ukraine in the War? Wouldn't USA/Nato actively jamming against Russian forces be an act of War? It seems like the situation can escalate if there is equipment, Growler jamming, etc. being sent in and around Nato countries while aimed against Russia.

As I recall, Russians were in Vietnam assisting with shooting down our pilots by training the Vietnamese. Also Trump did a nice job killing some Russians in the middle east

 

[donnage99]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Asking an honest question, but wouldn't that be an immediate act of war/aggression specifically targeting Russia, on behalf of Ukraine in the War? Wouldn't USA/Nato actively jamming against Russian forces be an act of War? It seems like the situation can escalate if there is equipment, Growler jamming, etc. being sent in and around Nato countries while aimed against Russia.

As I recall, Russians were in Vietnam assisting with shooting down our pilots by training the Vietnamese. Also Trump did a nice job killing some Russians in the middle east

I doubt the command chain reached up to trump for that particular event. One thing about trump admin was that he surrounded himself with people who defined their legacy with keeping trump in the dark as much as possible when it comes to foreign military decisions - john kelly, mattis, mcmaster, and trump didn't really mind it. It was not his area of interest (he ran for office for immigration, economic policies, even his distrust of NATO stemmed from his dissatisfaction of US bearing the brunt of security spending) given how much he liked to skip daily briefings on these issues.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1513207683238690816

View: https://twitter.com/USSHARRYSTRUMAN/status/1513207683238690816

 

[rooster]

Actually Growler can jam at a considerable range.
From any of the bordering countries (Poland, Slovakia, Romania), their potential to act over Ukraine without overflying it should not be underestimated.

Asking an honest question, but wouldn't that be an immediate act of war/aggression specifically targeting Russia, on behalf of Ukraine in the War? Wouldn't USA/Nato actively jamming against Russian forces be an act of War? It seems like the situation can escalate if there is equipment, Growler jamming, etc. being sent in and around Nato countries while aimed against Russia.

As I recall, Russians were in Vietnam assisting with shooting down our pilots by training the Vietnamese. Also Trump did a nice job killing some Russians in the middle east

I doubt the command chain reached up to trump for that particular event. One thing about trump admin was that he surrounded himself with people who defined their legacy with keeping trump in the dark as much as possible when it comes to foreign military decisions - john kelly, mattis, mcmaster, and trump didn't really mind it. It was not his area of interest (he ran for office for immigration, economic policies, even his distrust of NATO stemmed from his dissatisfaction of US bearing the brunt of security spending) given how much he liked to skip daily briefings on these issues.

Oh yeah, I remember seeing you in the news as a member of the administration... How's it going now that you're not in the White House any longer?