RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces by Humphrey Wynn
Chapter XXIII
Blue Streak and Blue Steel MK2

Pages 374-375
The missile envisaged was to be capable of being fired at targets up to 2,000nm distant, and of subsequent development to reach ranges of 2,500nm, though the Air Staff would accept a minimum range of 1,500nm; it was to be designed to carry a nuclear warhead, and intended for use from prepared sites in the UK and the Middle East initially, though ultimately in any part of the world. It was required to be in service “as soon as possible”, and the ASR was forwarded to the Ministry of Supply on 8 August 1955. Later that year, and early in 1956, several Air Staff papers were written, and meetings held, on the operational employment of Blue Streak.

The issuing of this ASR had followed some two years’ preparatory work, for “in August 1953 the Air Staff called for an evaluation of all possible to an Air Staff target for a strategic bombardment missile”, and “the industrial organisation for the development of [the] project was settled in April 1955” – the de Havilland Propellor Co being “nominated as the firm responsible for the co-ordination of the weapon system and design”. The de Havilland Aircraft Co were to be responsible for the airframe, Rolls-Royce for propulsion, Sperry Gyroscope Co for inertial guidance and Marconi for ground radar and communications link, while a special re-entry test vehicle was required for experimental work: this was Black Knight – to be designed and flown by RAE and produced by Saunders-Roe. Other possible main contractors considered by the Ministry of Supply were Bristol Aeroplane Co and English Electric. A Ballistic Missile Division was created at RAE to exercise technical supervision and assist the project.

Page 375-376
Reporting to the Air Council in July (1957), DCAS (Air Mshl Sir Geoffrey Tuttle) said that recent economy measures” had “necessitated a readjustment of the Blue Streak R&D programme, resulting in cancellation of the contracts for the Marconi radar guidance system and the English Electric insurance inertial guidance system”. The R&D time-scale had been extended, so that the first firing was scheduled for November 1960 and the first operational capability date was 1965.

Page 376
Under the arrangement at present envisaged, 23 test firings were proposed for completion by the end of 1963 and only the last ten would have the thrust-controlled motors required for full-range operational missiles.

Page 380
(this from 1958)
The Americans, he said, had agreed to a purchase of Thor without political strings; but since they were not going to develop a successor to it in the IRBM range, and since there was small prospect of anything of value to the UK emerging from a European missile project, it was clear that if the UK were to have its own independent nuclear deterrent in the late 1960s it would have to make it sown successor to the V-force and to Thor – if that were acquired. Blue Streak should be ready by 1965”; the V-force with Blue Steel should remain effective until then and could be followed immediately by Blue Streak, without the need to buy Thors, which “would not have an effective life of more than three years after 1965”. The alternative would be to decide to buy Thors, to abandon Blue Streak and start afresh with the development of a solid fuel rocket. But this would have disadvantages: it was doubtful whether a solid fuel rocket would be ready for deployment, and the large sums already invested in developing a liquid-fuelled motor would be wasted because the development of a solid-fuel motor would mean starting afresh. If Blue Streak were continued with, taking advantages of the smaller and lighter American warhead, anti-defensive devices and other improvements could be incorporated. Known solid fuels , the Minister added, “would have…less powerful thrust than contemporary liquid fuels and…be insufficiently powerful for launching space satellites”. On balance , he had regretfully come to the conclusion that there was no practical alternative to proceeding with Blue Streak”.

Page 381
The capabilities of Blue Streak were well known: it would have the right combination of range (up to 3,000miles), warhead and capacity to carry counter-measures; it could be deployed by 1965.

Page 390
“For strategic reasons”, the Minister of Defence wrote to the Home Secretary on 5 June 1959, “wide dispersal throughout the country will probably be necessary, geological conditions permitting. But on present information much of the eastern half of England appears to be geologically unsuitable”.

Rock masses 300-500ft thick were required (paper in Guided Weapons-Surface to surface Blue Streak/Thor (IIA/11/2/26).)

Regards,
Barry
 
Barry,

Thank you for posting that, I am sure other people will take other notes from that text but it raises two immediate questions in my mind.

1) Did the EE Insurance Navigation System have anything to do with their earlier ballistic missile studies, ie did it exist in the opaque timeframe before Blue Streak crystalizes in which a missile with the Bristol Delta engine inside an EE airframe was being conceived?

2) The Marconi ground radar communications link/radar guidance system, is this a similar system to the TRAMP system, proposed for the Red Rapier programme or is it something different altogether?
 
SLL: opaque timescale. S.R.Twigge, Early Devt.of GW in UK,Harwood,’93 tells how 20 UK GW notions, 1948, by 1950 became 4 (none an IRBM) to be pursued with "equal" top priority to Bomb and Bombers. 27/2/50 we did a US/UK Data Exchange Agreement (Burns/Templer). No bombardment weapon because A4 had been seen as of no military utility (guidance/payload). That changed in 1954 with gyro/I.N and miniaturised fusion warheads evolving in US (to be Atlas). So we did another Agreement, 12/6-30/7/54, by which Minister of Supply Sandys extracted I.N, liquid fuel rocket motor, thin structure know-how...but no warhead data. On 25/7/54 USSR demanded withdrawal of NATO from W.Germany; so on 26/7 Churchill initiated (to be) Yellow Sun 1),Blue Streak , Mk.2 V-Craft and a supersonic successor (Avro 730). Sandys put together a team of Marconi, Sperry, RR..and offered the tin to EE. 1955 award to DH Props was because George Nelson very sensibly declined it (misuse of resources - no business/profit).

As Minister of Defence Sandys' first act in January,1957 was to agree licence terms for Convair Systems Integration data. That left only the warhead, for which US data was secured after Sputnik, on 4/8/58. So far as US and UK Ministers were concerned, UK's 1954 entry to bombardment missiles was as $-sparing licencee. Some have stressed UK's original re-entry vehicle (Proceedings, 17/3/99 R.Ae.S Symposium, History of the UK Strategic Deterrent: “some US ideas rather than hard data”): few have addressed US' $ contribution to the Blue Streak programme: agreement in 1956 to fund 15% of £70Mn. R&D (actually paid out $8Mn to mid-58 P163,I.Clark,Nuclear Diplomacy&the Special Relationship,OUP,94). The Stevenage site, now central to MBDA, was expanded for Blue Streak production. Bosch Arma IN, Rocketdyne...endless.

And why not ? Didn't Ministers do well? Why try, as France very expensively did, to replicate our Ally's efforts? Adapt and derive, thus liberating human capital to do exportable things. Like the Austin Allegro.
 
sealordlawrence said:
Barry,

Thank you for posting that, I am sure other people will take other notes from that text but it raises two immediate questions in my mind.

1) Did the EE Insurance Navigation System have anything to do with their earlier ballistic missile studies, ie did it exist in the opaque timeframe before Blue Streak crystalizes in which a missile with the Bristol Delta engine inside an EE airframe was being conceived?

2) The Marconi ground radar communications link/radar guidance system, is this a similar system to the TRAMP system, proposed for the Red Rapier programme or is it something different altogether?

Hi,

EE Insurance Navigation System, I think there were two earlier UK forms of this form of navigation system possibly for aircraft or missiles. EE were advertising in the Times circa 1956 for people to work on such a system with OUT stating what project it was for.
I understood the work carried on till the end of the saga in 1960
 
Spark said:
Hi,

EE Insurance Navigation System, I think there were two earlier UK forms of this form of navigation system possibly for aircraft or missiles. EE were advertising in the Times circa 1956 for people to work on such a system with stating what project it was for.
I understood the work carried on till the end of the saga in 1960

I am assuming that the Marconi system and the EE system were seperate with the EE one being inertial and the Marconi one being something like TRAMP for the Vickers Red Rapier?
 
What size would a solid fuel missile with Blue Streak range/payload be?
 
sealordlawrence said:
2) The Marconi ground radar communications link/radar guidance system, is this a similar system to the TRAMP system, proposed for the Red Rapier programme or is it something different altogether?

To answer my own question, apparently the original intention was to guide Blue Streak via a command link from the ground with tracking provided by a 3 station secondary radar system using both continuous wave and pulse systems over X-Band- this was the Marconi system. I suspect we will never know but it would be interesting to know what the range and accuracy limitations / advantages of this system would have been.
 
I think this was similar to the original guidance system for Atlas. It was dropped quite early on for two reasons: there's no point in putting the missile in a silo and then having radio aerials out in the open; [ii] there was an economy drive!
 
CNH said:
I think this was similar to the original guidance system for Atlas. It was dropped quite early on for two reasons: there's no point in putting the missile in a silo and then having radio aerials out in the open; [ii] there was an economy drive!


I think the Blue Streak had not radio guidance and but internal guidance system
see here for more
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/k11.html
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/launchsite.htm

but to answer the question about guidance system
gives AIR STAFF REQUIREMENT NO. O.R.1139 and O.R.1142
and i don't have copy of it....
 
Michael,

Thats the point, there was originally a radio guidance system but it was cancelled in 1957 and from then on the missile was developed solely with the Sperry inertial guidance system.
 
CNH said:
there's no point in putting the missile in a silo and then having radio aerials out in the open

Incorrect. The radio antennas had their own silos
 
Blue Streak radio guidance never got that far, although I have vague recollections about reading that they would be vulnerable. I suppose you could arrange for them to be blast proof. How far away from the silo would they be?
 
Many years ago, when I was still at school, I could look out of my bedroom window in Carlisle and see Spadeadam. Wednesday afternoon was games for the 6th form, and as a cross country runner I could be home by 3.00pm. Wednesday at 3 was when Blue Streak was test fired, and I always looked out to see the huge clouds of steam from the coolant water sprays as the test firing took place.

There was a rumour in North Cumbria that Spadeadam could if necessary launch the missile with a warhead and, in the words of one local who worked at the test area, "seriously inconvenience several of the citizens of Moscow"

I'm fascinated to find out from you all so much more about what I was looking at.
 
Barrington Bond said:
RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces by Humphrey Wynn
Chapter XXIII
Blue Streak and Blue Steel MK2


Page 390
“For strategic reasons”, the Minister of Defence wrote to the Home Secretary on 5 June 1959, “wide dispersal throughout the country will probably be necessary, geological conditions permitting. But on present information much of the eastern half of England appears to be geologically unsuitable”.

Rock masses 300-500ft thick were required (paper in Guided Weapons-Surface to surface Blue Streak/Thor (IIA/11/2/26).)

Regards,
Barry

What would it have taken to increase the range enough to make the whole of the UK a potential site for a silo?

Given the size of the UK, you cant really be adding that much range....
 
alertken said:
.but geology was preferable West of the Pennines); and (I joke not) into priority conflict, 60 very deep holes, or the motorway building programme, for the finite output of UK cement industry.

Charles H Martin's 'De Havilland Blue Streak' mentions the proposed design would have placed a burden on the construction industry, which was at the time fully committed to building motorways...but...

1. Was the proposed design over engineered even for the overestimated accuracy of Soviet missiles at the time.

2. How much of the expected burden on the construction industry could have been reduced if the accuracy had not been over estimated?
 
May I suggest that the engineering issue of range enhancement was eminently do-able, but that Ministers simply could not logic their way into a function for an IRBM, additional to/instead of stand-off bombs (ASMs) on manned platforms. We wanted to delete some, not all Sovs.

UK had abandoned Hammer/V2 in 1947 as having no military utility - inaccurate delivery of small HE/CB warhead. US exactly then became excited about such things, anticipating both small fission warheads and improved guidance accuracy. In 1954 both those things were so, ATLAS I underway; 1955 Jupiter, Thor; 1956 Polaris. Minister of Supply Sandys took advice from RAE of techno-feasibility, but rather than get going wholly-solo, such as in an EE/Marconi/Napier one-stop shop, he did a licence deal with US, for structure, guidance and power, to initiate Blue Streak/Orange Herald warhead, 1955. It was exactly then that UK's gravy train of Mutual Aid dried, so that the IRBM and Medium Bomber Force's Bomb, Vulcan/Victor platform and infrastructure, and defenders after Javelin, would fall to UK taxpayers...as we approached an Election. So we dribbled the IRBM on a shoestring (mixed metaphor...sorry).

Macmillan/Sandys 1957 did further US licences for kit and did the very obvious thing of modest investment, largely in RAF bodies, to deploy Blue Streak's sire, Thor under dual key. In 1958 Sandys accessed US warheads, art and article, exactly co-incident with advice that silo-siting would be needed for Thor's replacement. Guessed Project Cost for 60 reached >£600Mn., when £1,500Mn. p.a was total Defence budget. The only surprise is that Ministers dithered to 4/60 before chopping the thing. Moore/II has 1961 PM Macmillan uncommitted to any Deterrent after Skybolt/Vulcan. Kitchen,,,hot.
 
From Chris Gibson, who is currently unable to post this reply:



Soviet accuracy wouldn't matter too much as a 10+mt ground burst could quite possibly produce a mission kill on any silos in the area. If you watch some YouTube footage on the recent Japanese earthquake, you'll see the effect of seismic liquifaction. SAC mounted their kit on big springs, anyone seen such plans for the K11?



Also, as a young pup in the ROC, one of my jobs was to pump out the post. Silos would be well down into the water table and would without doubt act as wells. On a visit to a Titan silo in Arizona, I asked the bloke how they dealt with that. "We're in a desert, son" was his reply. It was also on a hill. Not many of those in Norfolk. So, putting my geologist's hat on, water table, liquifaction and cement production would have been pretty expensive cons to silo-basing wherever in the UK.
 
Macmillan was a total disaster, and not just in regards to the 'Defence of the Realm'.
 
A number of US Minuteman silos are in wet ground, two of them around Minot almost got submerged by flooding last week! They built earth berms to keep the water off the silo lids. During construction more then one flooded heavily and problems with water persisted in early operations before they finally sorted out making the sump pumps reliable and yet blast hardened. If conditions were bad enough in the UK ground freezing or temporarily water wells could be used to stabilize groundwater levels during construction, this is fairly common for building bunkers. Its hard to see water alone ruling out silo construction, but unstable ground certainly could.
 
I'm sure Brunel wouldn't have thought this a problem - see
http://www.flickr.com/photos/londonmatt/5503016734/

Logic says that semi static silos 'at sea' around the coast playing a shell game would have been cheaper and more effective in practice. A small step towards Polaris and yet well within the abilities and resources of UK ship building in those days.

Anyone know if it was ever considered?

Fred
 
fredgell said:
I'm sure Brunel wouldn't have thought this a problem - see
http://www.flickr.com/photos/londonmatt/5503016734/

Logic says that semi static silos 'at sea' around the coast playing a shell game would have been cheaper and more effective in practice. A small step towards Polaris and yet well within the abilities and resources of UK ship building in those days.

Anyone know if it was ever considered?

Fred

Seal off The Wash and turn it into a massive tidal lagoon for energy production and hiding silos....... :) :)
 
The Blue Streak silo was approximately 40m deep. Perhaps you could shorten it a little for the marine version - but shall we say 30m minimum. Now look at a marine chart of the UK and find how many places have depths greater than 30m within the 12 mile limit. Putting further out to sea might produce other problems.
 
fredgell said:
I'm sure Brunel wouldn't have thought this a problem - see
http://www.flickr.com/photos/londonmatt/5503016734/

Logic says that semi static silos 'at sea' around the coast playing a shell game would have been cheaper and more effective in practice. A small step towards Polaris and yet well within the abilities and resources of UK ship building in those days.

The MX/MPS was quite efficent for real estate as only the shelter areas needed to be secured with the spacing between them available for civil use. But a missile like Blue Streak would need a lot more support at each site to operate. Which would defeat the efficiency of the decoy concept.
 
CNH said:
The Blue Streak silo was approximately 40m deep. Perhaps you could shorten it a little for the marine version - but shall we say 30m minimum. Now look at a marine chart of the UK and find how many places have depths greater than 30m within the 12 mile limit. Putting further out to sea might produce other problems.

Blue Streak Maunsell sea fort? A moored tension version with a pyramid topside might actually be quite resistant to nearby nuclear hits. One for the militarised oil rig fantasy coloumn...
 
A 3 megaton explosion on the sea bed might create quite a wall of water.

Some sort of barge arrangement, with the missile stored horizontally, was briefly considered. However, such a platform would hardly be stable enough for the guidance, which was marginalanyway.
 
CNH said:
A 3 megaton explosion on the sea bed might create quite a wall of water.

Some sort of barge arrangement, with the missile stored horizontally, was briefly considered. However, such a platform would hardly be stable enough for the guidance, which was marginalanyway.

A tension moored platform could be designed to survive a super wave created by a nearby nuclear blast.

But it is pretty superfluous anyway. Part of the problem with UK fixed basing and any coastal option is they can be targeted by submarine based tactical weapons. These can be fired from relatively short range and achieve enough accuracy to ensure destruction of almost any target (direct hit).

The only option for such basing – when you can’t base deep inland like the USA and USSR could – is launch on warning, super hardening or deception basing like MX/MPS. Before storable solid propellant rockets it’s a real hard bargain for the UK. Why the option was either V Bombers on airborne alert or Poseidon underwater basing.
 
befor run further into seculation about BS Silos


here some facts
if BS hab became opernational the Air ministry neede 60 Silos, each cost 2,3 million pound (in 1959)
in 1960 the Silo base had to look like that:


Deploy 5 to 10 underground silos around central domestic and technical facillty.
the site only to be destroy by a 20 megaton yiel nuke either air-brust or ground-burst!
Each site must be self-Supporting with limited capability to repare the system for minimum of three days in emergency
(ICBM had to launched with 24 hours in case of enermy attack)
the Silos has to withstand a 1 megaton (ground-burst or in air-brust) at half nautical mile in case of sneak attack


Source:
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/bsmilitary.html
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/launchsite.htm
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/k11.html
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/cgwl_skybolt.htm
 
Hi Michel,

By 1959 the penultimate Blue Streak had a potential range in excess of 5,000n.miles hence had a wide range of possible silo sites in Canada, Australia, Far East and UK.

The ultimate Blue Streak would, could have storable propellants. this according to Ian Smith who was the chief performance engineer on the project at Rolls Royce.

ICI rocket technology was used for the improved Polaris.

Has any one any information on the two stage Blue Streak proposal?




Michel Van said:
befor run further into seculation about BS Silos


here some facts
if BS hab became opernational the Air ministry neede 60 Silos, each cost 2,3 million pound (in 1959)
in 1960 the Silo base had to look like that:


Deploy 5 to 10 underground silos around central domestic and technical facillty.
the site only to be destroy by a 20 megaton yiel nuke either air-brust or ground-burst!
Each site must be self-Supporting with limited capability to repare the system for minimum of three days in emergency
(ICBM had to launched with 24 hours in case of enermy attack)
the Silos has to withstand a 1 megaton (ground-burst or in air-brust) at half nautical mile in case of sneak attack


Source:
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/bsmilitary.html
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/launchsite.htm
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/k11.html
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/bs/cgwl_skybolt.htm
 
Hi CNH,
The following is copied from a PRO document written about Blue Streak. Sorry it took so long to find, next visit to PRO will match document to the record of documents looked at.
“The replacement of the present warhead by a 600 lb. Head would with some further development of the motor throttling system, allow the range to increase to roughly 3,300 n.m. Alternatevely the load of countermeasures devices to be substantially increased. For example, in addition to the re-entry head itself three dummy re-entry identical but for their nuclear content could be carried”
 
I'd be interested to see that file if you can find the reference.

After the 58 agreement with the US, we were given designs to two warheads. If Blue Streak had become operational, it would have had the Red Snow warhead. The other warhead was the lighter one - 600lbs sounds right.

There were certainly plans to fit a variety of decoys to Blue Streak, although inevitably nothing came of it.
 
Hi CNH,
As soon as I visit Kew will let you have details. This might also be of interest.

With the possibility of a 600lb. warhead it was suggested that 65,000lb ~75,000lb LOX/K missile be looked at as a possible alternative to Blue Streak.
This is from the same document as 4 warhead BS.

Would 65,000lb put it in the same ballpark as the 1958 AW IRBM?
 
Hi CNH,
Sorry it took so long, found it in notes, hope it’s the one in question, AVIA 65/1427, “A Technical Reappraisal of the UK Ballistic Missile Programme Assuming the Availability of a 600lb Warhead,” hope its useful.





Spark said:
Hi CNH,
As soon as I visit Kew will let you have details. This might also be of interest.

With the possibility of a 600lb. warhead it was suggested that 65,000lb ~75,000lb LOX/K missile be looked at as a possible alternative to Blue Streak.
This is from the same document as 4 warhead BS.

Would 65,000lb put it in the same ballpark as the 1958 AW IRBM?
 
AVIA 65/1427 is 'BLUE STREAK: financial policy'.

Is it a paper within that?
 
Hi CNH,
It covers the costs of alternatives to Blue Streak made possible with the smaller warhead (1958?)
A cheap SLV BS/BK solution at a estimated £10million cost by 1963. Not sure what set of documents that belong too.
The “insurances” one assumes the EE developed LRBM backup technologies and specifically the solid propellant development are dropped as an economy measure in 1957 are mentioned in an accompanying document.
Elsewhere there is reference to Aerojets interest in ICI solid motor casing “tape” technology for Polaris but it is not the one I recall reading some time ago... Have read today several hundred photo pages of Kew documents and am not sure if they belonged to that particular costs piece.


CNH said:
AVIA 65/1427 is 'BLUE STREAK: financial policy'.

Is it a paper within that?
 
Hi CNH,
Have found reference to bare manufacturing cost of Blue Streak cost per round, October 1958 given as £500,000 (1958£).(Not the source I was thinking off)
However 1958 total estimate was given as £1.4million per round allowing farther extra 75% for spares plus another 75% for ground support equipment and 15% contribution for central maintenance facilities. This estimate was for the round, one would think that the SLV with out the LRBM guidance and HTP power units etc. would be simpler there by cheaper and would explain Pardoe’s 1960 manufactured £250,000 SLV unit cost?

Spark said:
CNH said:
AVIA 65/1427 is 'BLUE STREAK: financial policy'.

Is it a paper within that?
 
Found at DTIC
RAE Technical Note GW 398 “A Study of the Structure Weight of Ballistic Missiles” February 1956
Halfway through it actually mentions Blue Streak…

…until the final layout of Blue Streak is settled together with the shape of the re-entry stage…
 

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the 3 Engine version on first picture
Look like Twin of the Soviet (or was that German?) G-3 / R-12H ::)
 
i found this on you tube
feast your eye on this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JWGg_fn-4&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Ir8M1EILE&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Oc2wJ_XWw&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzMAgj-trz8&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWmZjVv4Vrk&feature=related
 

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