BAe Tempest and other pre-GCAP studies

[Trident]

Tempest updates:

In IOC of F-35 press release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-sets-sights-on-next-century-of-british-air-power

IOC stated as being hoped for in 2035, although related graphic shows it may slide right (see attached, although it also seems to indicate Typhoon in service since 1980s!)

Is it just me or is that Tempest silhouette in fact Replica?

 

[Mike Pryce]

Seems to be. The whole graphic seems like an intern went unsupervised.

Not seen any document it came from, apart from a video on Twitter.

 

[kaiserd]

So per that time-line the “Tempest” (or at least what ever aircraft emerges from this investment and development effort) is intend to go into service approx 2040.
While it would be foolish too read to much into a press-release it does put some enthusiasts hopes/ expectations of a much shorter development schedule in context and does show we are in very early lets-see-what-happens stages rather than a hell-for-leather race to develop and fly a particular (UK only) airframe and systems.

 

[Mike Pryce]

I think the graphic is just badly drawn. I don't think much should be read into it.

A shame as MoD info on this has been pretty sharp so far, although the BAE model has led to some confusion.

 

[Jackonicko]

It amazes me that people read so much into the Tempest model.

It was based on that concept (of many competing concepts, several of which are still under active consideration) for the convenience of the model makers, and perhaps because that concept seemed the most promising at the time they had to design the mock up. By the time it was revealed, other concepts may have been judged more promising.

It was sized (including height off the ground) for transport and assembly requirements, and to fit within the constrained dimensions of marquees and exhibition spaces.

The eventual manned platform within FCAS is most unlikely to look anything like the Tempest model. And even if that concept does end up forming the basis of the eventual FCA it will not be exactly that size, or shape.

 

[TsrJoe]

http://www.anigrand.com/AA2138_Tempest.htm ... hmm, the parts as shown look to be oddly proportioned, inaccurate and not representative of the mockup aircraft as built, truly a missed opportunity, it seems a bit on the expensive side too

I hope to have a more accurate kit avaliable through SpotOn resins very soon based upon the actual aircraft mockups (I am at the stage of cleaning up masters from accurate 3D printed forms)

 

[Deltafan]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/15/taking-sides-italian-defense-industry-rep-attacks-franco-german-fighter-deal/

Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest

 

[FighterJock]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/15/taking-sides-italian-defense-industry-rep-attacks-franco-german-fighter-deal/

Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest

I do hope that Italy stay's with Team Tempest and not getting cold feet and going over to the France German fighter program.

 

[Hood]

The answer is of course simple, Spain is guaranteed workshare in SCAF as what was once CASA is now part of Airbus.
Leonardo's Caselle facility and the F-35 facility at Cameri are not part of the Airbus empire so there is no reason for Dassault or Airbus to give up a stakehold unless political reasons to provide a sweetener to get Italian Euros for the programme become pressing.

Let's look at what the F-35 deal included, over 27 directly contracted Italian companies plus over 70 sub-contractors for the airframe and 9 directly contracted Italian companies for the engine side, potentially $14 billion dollars worth of contracts by 2039 with already almost $2 billion awarded.
So its only right that Italy wants a similar large-scale deal if they are to join the Franco-German programme.

As to whether sticking with FCAS/Team Tempest or Franco-German is the best choice who knows. Both have political commitments with cash behind them. The Franco-German fighter is a concept, the Anglo FCAS is still rather more nebulous as to what might actually come out of it. Team Tempest has opted to the start with the systems, Dassabus seems to be going the traditional way and going down the airframe/engines route early on but its very early days in both programmes. If I was to bet on which one is more likely to reach hardware, my money would go on Dassabus (or Airsault).

 

[LowObservable]

potentially $14 billion dollars worth of contracts by 2039

This reminds me of an old, rude and non-PC joke about the difference between "potentially" and "actually".

 

[TomcatViP]

Airframe dev cycle have been cut short drastically (thanks to CAE and integrated virtual simulation testing). It's a reality that we can see today with the plethora of programs colliding in our old rythmed agenda.
Team tempest took the right path (just like did PCA).

 

[kaiserd]

Airframe dev cycle have been cut short drastically (thanks to CAE and integrated virtual simulation testing). It's a reality that we can see today with the plethora of programs colliding in our old rythmed agenda.
Team tempest took the right path (just like did PCA).

Not sure you can make an actual informed distinction between “Team Tempest” and potentially rival projects in terms of what approach(es)/ paths they are or are not actually taking.
And it’s too early to sit on judgement on if “Team Tempest” has taken the right approach/ path.

 

[TomcatViP]

My comment is limited to early design work being routed in direction of systems rather than airframe design. Not an overall GodEye assumption of the merits of both

 

[hesham]

This is a sketch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.

Probably these top down views of these studies are based on sketches from that BAE Warton media day.

Source: Air Force Monthly, Issue September 2018, page 96

The last one is beauty.

 

[FighterJock]

This is a sketch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.

Probably these top down views of these studies are based on sketches from that BAE Warton media day.

Source: Air Force Monthly, Issue September 2018, page 96

The last one is beauty.

Certainly is hesham, I wonder if it will ever be built though. Probably not, which will be a pity.

 

[Mike Pryce]

The head of Warton's project team used to keep a Star Wars TIE fighter on his desk.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1991/1991%20-%200426.html

attached is another, from the 'Clone Wars'.

Maybe...?

 

[Mike Pryce]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/uk-offers-collaboration-in-fighter-tech-carriers/article26424904.ece

 

[Hood]

Italy, via Leonardo, is strongly pushing to join the Tempest programme citing close industrial and military alignment that favours this option.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/leonardo-targets-role-on-uks-tempest-next-gen-fight-456692/

 

[flateric]

variable dihedral stabs becoming a popular idea at both sides of big pond ...

 

[Rhinocrates]

variable dihedral stabs becoming a popular idea at both sides of big pond ...

As in... this Boeing FX concept?

 

[Flyaway]

UK Tempest Next-Gen Fighter Program Draws Notice Of Potential Partners

As potential foreign partners take a serious interest in British proposals to develop a new-generation combat aircraft, the UK government and industry are quietly working on the technologies that will pave the way for it. Few details of the Tempest’s progress have emerged in the nine months since British Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson unveiled the UK vision for a new combat aircraft to be ready in the late 2030s. To get there, the UK is taking a multipronged approach. While the ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/uk-tempest-next-gen-fighter-program-draws-notice-potential-partners

 

[Flyaway]

Janes | Latest defence and security news

Janes | The latest defence and security news from Janes - the trusted source for defence intelligence

www.janes.com

 

[FighterJock]

Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?

 

[Moose]

Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?

Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.

 

[Flyaway]

Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?

Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.

Along with Japan, at least to me, they’ve always seemed the most logical of partners in the project.

 

[kaiserd]

Excellent news about Sweden having talks about potentially joining Tempest. Is this Sweden looking ahead to supplement the Grippen E?

Supplement it on the international market? Probably, and eventually replace it. They're quite pleased with T-X, not only for the US contract but for the big potential market out there. The Franco-German and American frontline fighter programs don't seem interested in that sort arrangement, but the UK may be receptive enough make it happen.

Along with Japan, at least to me, they’ve always seemed the most logical of partners in the project.

A partnership with Sweden is possible but may not get you to a critical mass to make the project really realistic and robust.

Sorry but a partnership with Japan is almost certainly a highly unrealistic pipe dream.
At least 90 percent likely they’ll stick with the US for this - for political, economic and technical reasons it’s a real no-brainer for them.
If this or something of that scale is required for the UK program to be viable then it’s not going to be viable.

 

[TomcatViP]

I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.

 

[Foo Fighter]

A joint project with Sweden AND Japan would be a reasonable prospect, at least there would be no hastle with France demanding to be lead and majority builder while also getting less dosh in to the project and more out.

 

[kaiserd]

I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.

Fundamentally the UK are bringing almost nothing to the table that the Japanese actually want or need.
There are major diplomatic, industrial and technical drivers for the US to provide assistance to Japan and for Japan to turn to the US.
Cooperation with the US may or may not amount to something akin to JSF tier 1 partner level or something looser (some kind of technology sharing with a similar or different airframe).
There may also be some similar arrangement with the US available to the UK.

As I stated above Sweden may be a possible partner for the UK if goes is own path on this but hard to see that surviving the various issues that impact all major projects in this field.
Some kind of consolidation with the French/German/Spanish project (at least in terms of technology sharing etc.) would appear to be the only likely alternative to junior partnership with the US.

 

[flateric]

...

 

[kaiserd]

Think tank to Italy: Join UK Tempest program, then try to merge it with Franco-German effort

Why would Italy find a solid partner in the U.K.? A think tank points to specific fighter jets, and offers air power advice for the future.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Foo Fighter]

IMHO, better for the project to constrain the project to partners who can work together. Sweden and Japan have similar requirements which would simplify matters to the point twhere the technical spec can be set in stone more quickly which is a major advantage in any tech development like this. Adding in scheduled upgrades is far better than delaying entry to service due to constantly changing requirements/specs.

 

[kaiserd]

IMHO, better for the project to constrain the project to partners who can work together. Sweden and Japan have similar requirements which would simplify matters to the point twhere the technical spec can be set in stone more quickly which is a major advantage in any tech development like this. Adding in scheduled upgrades is far better than delaying entry to service due to constantly changing requirements/specs.

But Japan almost certainly won’t join, some kind of deal will be done with the US and and any interest they’re showing in Team Tempest is really only part of their negotiations with the US.
I’d suggest other contributors try to stay realistic with their expectations.
Bluntly if Team Tempest needs Japan or a partner of that size then it’s probably doomed to fail apart from as a gambit to try to demonstrate relevance as a potential junior partner to another US or European project.

 

[Flyaway]

I am not sure that the US want to share their next USAF platform with any foreign gov. I can only see that being plausible for the USN if for real both projects are split. So, to me there is still room for a joint project with the UK.

Can the US government really afford to keep doing that. Oh well looks like they’ll be plenty of alternatives willing to rake in the foreign sales cash.

 

[JFC Fuller]

http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/rolls-demonstrate-military-fan-system

 

[Mike Pryce]

Update from BAE. https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/team-tempest

 

[Flyaway]

Sweden signs up to join Tempest fighter programme

Britain’s Team Tempest programme to build a new fighter jet has moved a step closer to getting into the air with Sweden poised to announce it has signed up as the project’s first international partner.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[lastdingo]

Sweden joins to British next-generation fighter programme

The Telegraph on Friday has reported that Sweden will be first partner nation in the British Tempest programme to build a next-generation fighter jet. “Britain’s Team Tempest programme to build a new fighter jet has moved a step closer to getting into the air with Sweden poised to announce it...

defence-blog.com

 

[FighterJock]

That is excellent news. Well done Sweden.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1152132890693709824