BAe Tempest and other pre-GCAP studies

[mrmalaya]

No, I'm from the UK and we have chosen not to develop our own fighters for some time now ;D

 

[Archibald]

Nice mockup, really. I kind of enjoy it. As noted earlier - think of the P.110 mockups (also happened with P.1216, unfortunately). Perhaps Sweden will jump aboard that ship.

 

[mrmalaya]

Part of me does wonder to what extent the mock-up ways designed around the exhibition space rather than the other way around. The other designs being considered probably have as much validity at this stage as the one used in the mock-up. This images are from Tim Robinson who was present at the breifing day prior to the launch.

 

[flateric]

This is scetch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.

 

[mrmalaya]

Yes, I didn't mean the same day as the Air Combat launch. Still pretty ropey evidence either way.

 

[Airplane]

Wow that is aggressive timing! 17 years to get it into production by 2035! I see they are following American (and Lockheed) style of product development timing. Weapons programs have become nothing more than jobs and money distribution programs. Imagine this timing in the day of the Phantom II... Kicked off in circa 1953 and it would have entered service in 1970. The Phantom was the most complex aircraft conceived at that time and they pulled it off in about 7 years entering service in 1960. Arguably, relatively speaking, the Phantom was more complex to the engineers engineering it than aircraft of today as the Phantom was heavily laden with complicated avionics and radar who technology was not even on the drawing boards when the engineers who engineered it all were adolescents. It was all Gee Whiz Buck Rogers technology back then.

 

[FighterJock]

When is the Typhoon out of service date supposed to be? If we know that then we can start to predict when a successor fighter should be ready for service.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Wow that is aggressive timing! 17 years to get it into production by 2035! I see they are following American (and Lockheed) style of product development timing.

You might want to look at the Typhoon/Rafale timings before thinking this is a US thing. Don't forget to add additional time to develop VLO tech.

 

[Avimimus]

This is scetch from BAE Warton media day that was much earlier.

Good to know. I like the F-16XLish one on the right. I also like Replica... whereas the mockup is... well... unpretty and unoptimised. If there is only a 40% chance of successful development then aesthetics are a valid criterion, no?

 

[flateric]

That's what I call a clearer version

 

[FighterJock]

In the middle picture, the Tempest has a chine that makes it look a bit like the YF-23.

 

[Flyaway]

I wonder whatever happened to that BAE design that looked like a Bird of Prey that they used in some of their promo videos two or three years ago.

 

[mrmalaya]

I'm assuming it's one of the ones they said (during the Warton press day) is less likely to actually get chosen.

Perhaps if BAE can convince potential partners that tailless job is safe, it might make a reappearance.

 

[Rhinocrates]

A close-up of the image posted by Flateric above, showing the intakes and lower fuselage that aren't clear in the photos of the model.

 

[DrRansom]

To my eye, the Tempest's design features fix several of the short-comings of existing LO/VLO fighter aircraft:

1. The explicit statement of "balanced-survivability" is a rejection, either through operational analysis or budget analysis, of the pursuit of even greater stealth. I suspect operational analysis, as we are starting to see more and more comments to the effect that stealth is a necessary, but not sufficient, component of future aircraft survivability.

2. The reconfigurable payload bay and planned conformal carry is an explicit attempt to return some flexibility to stealth aircraft. I suspect the origins are that the F-22 and F-35 do not have a lot of room internally to fit different payloads. For the USAF, this is less of an issue because the USAF can afford other support aircraft to carry payloads. For the RAF and like-minded airforces, this will be an issue. China and Russia have already moved towards excessively large bays on their stealth aircraft, this is a continuation and amplification of that trend.


Now, the curious question is if we will see similar design decisions made in the PCA. I think so.

 

[bobbymike]

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a22168844/uk-new-fighter-jet-tempest/

The United Kingdom has announced the country’s first entirely British fighter in decades. The new Tempest fighter project will primarily involve British defense contractors, forging a plane that could be used for domestic use and export. The British government says the fighter should be ready for service by 2035.

U.K. Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson introduced a full-sized model of the new Tempest multi-role fighter today at the Farnborough Air Show. The Tempest incorporates a host of new technologies that would surpass what's in the F-35, meaning the British plane would join the growing group of "sixth-generation" fighters now on the drawing board. Several defense correspondents and aviation experts tweeted out some juicy details from briefings, particularly the Royal Aeronautical Society’s Tim Robinson.

 

[TomcatViP]

Doesn't it have the look of a 21st century Gloster Javelin?

 

[mrmalaya]

That nose design has been seen before hasn't it?

I wonder what the benefits are?

 

[FighterJock]

That nose design has been seen before hasn't it?

I wonder what the benefits are?

I thought the nose looked somewhat familiar.

 

[fredymac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1zXOXAZKe0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDIw2UNFdek

 

[flateric]

talking of mockup quality...

 

[mrmalaya]

Here is an article which attempts to put some context into the programme, both in terms of potential operational requirements and production planning:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/tempest-a-look-at-what-britains-next-generation-combat-jet-could-be/

 

[galgot]

Well , don’t know about how good the design is, and the product if it ends up being actually built will have some changes anyway.
But really, they should learn how to put the roundels correctly on their infographics. Off centered, weird perspective… looks awfully like a very rush job.

 

[flateric]

...

 

[sienar]

Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

 

[TomcatViP]

Notice the oblique break line behind the cockpit section suggesting that the front section is modular (man/unmanned?).

 

[robunos]

Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

Don't want to make the same mistake the Iranians made . . . ;D

cheers,
Robin.

 

[FighterJock]

Oversized cockpit for the mockup?

Don't want to make the same mistake the Iranians made . . . ;D

cheers,
Robin.

I do hope that Tempest does'nt end up looking like that, one badly designed so called Stealth fighter is enough.

 

[mrmalaya]

Without for a minute saying the mock-up/artwork is representative of a production standard aircraft, I wonder why people keep referencing the Iranian fiasco-jet?

 

[FighterJock]

Without for a minute saying the mock-up/artwork is representative of a production standard aircraft, I wonder why people keep referencing the Iranian fiasco-jet?

Too true mrmalaya, I have grown tired of seeing this plane now, let this be the last time we ever see this monstrosity ever again on this fine forum.

 

[galgot]

Because the Iranians with their mockup have ridiculed the all mockup idea. A mockup is already a fake thing , they managed to make it so bad that every fighter mockup made after the holy Qaher-313 , people immediately think "oh yeah ! Like that iranian stuff" .
Making a fighter mockup now is a bad pr move . It just look "iranian" now…

 

[robunos]

Well as I was the one who mentioned the Iranians . . .
I was replying, in a tongue-in-cheek fashion, to Sienar's post, that mentioned an 'oversized cockpit'. I immediately thought of the Quaher-313 mockup, with it's obviously 'undersized' cockpit. It was merely an attempt at whimsy . . . :-X


cheers,
Robin.

 

[flateric]

https://twitter.com/RollsRoyce/status/1019971599527829504

 

[kcran567]

Overall size of the Aircraft looks very smallish, T-38 sized.

Is the mockup 1:1 or 85%
Intakes on the mock-up look very small also, and the exhaust nozzles look very small.

Any indicators of features of nozzle design? looks like just a square opening. Subsonic?? no visible after-burning nozzles.

Looks like subsonic design for greatly reduced IR? Looks IR stealthy.

 

[TomcatViP]

The hand sign interface is remarkably clever. I see it as a breakthrough in this field. As I have somewhat experimented some years ago hand sign recognition to controll a swarm of drones in real time, I still think that their way of doing it is brilliant. Let's hope that they will share more of it soon.


Last but not least, those that want to see this as a fake mockup, a soon to be popular internet jocke or are taking this display as a derision are only delusional to themselves: a lot of work, time and money (across various succeeding administrations obviously) went behind this Tempest fury. A remarkable sign of continuity.
Any UK foreigner should be humble watching this scene of transparency with so much being shared so openly with the British public. We don't see this happening often in Europe lately.

 

[Rhinocrates]

Is the mockup 1:1 or 85%
Intakes on the mock-up look very small also, and the exhaust nozzles look very small.

Any indicators of features of nozzle design? looks like just a square opening. Subsonic?? no visible after-burning nozzles

Perspective can be very deceptive and most of the photos of the mockup are close/wide-angle. IIRC it has been described as a large aircraft, comparable to an F-22.

Regarding the intakes, perspective effects are compounded by the stealth angling. A low view in BAE artwork shows that they are actually large - compare views from above and below. Other artworks and infographics show afterburner equipped variable-cycle turbofans, other illustrations show afterburners in use (plus a laser).

Also, as a model of a concept that's in the early stages of development, it will be lacking many details that are as yet unresolved or classified.

 

[Rhinocrates]

The hand sign interface is remarkably clever.


Since it's a British design, I wonder if it will make use of a very British gesture.

Apparently it's origin story is only a myth. http://www.agincourt600.com/2015/06/08/was-the-v-sign-invented-at-the-battle-of-agincourt/

 

[kcran567]

Will be leveraging this no moving flaps Technology from MAGMA.

It has an interesting look to it.
Wonder what the Advanced Countermeasures could be, a towed decoy in the tail?

Use of Microwave, Quantum or some kind of HAARP array? Side looking Arrays?

The box behind the pilot a fuel tank or part of the energy weapon system?

 

[galgot]

Mmh mmh.... And using just the middle finger will launch a fox1 or a fox2, depending if you use both hands.
Brillant indeed B)

 

[TsrJoe]

Tempest mockup Exhaust and centrebody