I wonder what the shape of the aircraft will look like if the two projects are merged. I think there is a possibility that a completely new shape will come out, not the concept CG of Tempest or F-X that we've seen so far.
 
It's intriguing, both in the technologies that are involved and the design effort.
The first thing is requirements. How do they merge?
All sorts of potential here. Much wider than a aircraft, much deeper than technology.
 
I wonder what the shape of the aircraft will look like if the two projects are merged. I think there is a possibility that a completely new shape will come out, not the concept CG of Tempest or F-X that we've seen so far.
I really doubt we’ve ever seen the real shape of either project and I imagine that will remain classified for as long as possible.
 
Well at least for sure we haven't seen the one from UK.
I do believe however Japanese CGI models were close to the real thing.
 
Well at least for sure we haven't seen the one from UK.
I do believe however Japanese CGI models were close to the real thing.

I don't think the UK's will actually differ that much from the CGI to date. BAE have liked that wing design for quite some time, 2 engines and and internal weapons bay will drive the design to a similar look regardless I suspect.
 
I think that both existing designs will be scrapped and a brand new fighter developed with design input from both the UK and Japan.
 
If the full-fledged merger really happens, I'd expect the industrial workshare reach the point of component-level cooperation, similar to the successful Ariane program. Especially considering Japan's track-record of procuring extremely expensive weapons for the sake of the development of domestic industrial capabilities and technology, I can't really come up with other possibilities than that to appease both parties.

From a similar perspective, SCAF feels quite a bit like Europa in terms of how the cooperation is managed.
 
I'd prefer an audio visual cue. When a pilot is being buffeted about during a dogfight, I don't think a tap on the shoulder sounds very reliable.
 
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Probably be in a addition to audio visual, but as an additional tool it could be very useful.
 
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I'd prefer an audio visual cue. When a pilot is being buffeted about during a dogfight, I don't think a tap on the shoulder sounds very reliable.

You're probably gifted to never had to have your mother in law as a rear passenger.

Mind you, my mother and my mother-in-law were born exactly ten years minus 4 days apart (anniversaries have been quite complicated as a result, as they live 400 miles apart). But I'd rather have my mother-in-law as passenger, than my mom. Or my wife. Somewhat ironically, my beloved wife (who is sweetness and kindness perfection at every level, she is the living incarnation of a mogwai - without the gremlin inside), has the same one flaw as my mother: you don't want her as your passenger when driving. It is absolute, total and complete hell.

Ever seen a person seeing imaginary danger where this NONE, and getting hysterical as result ? welcome to my world (sigh).

One car brake ahead, say, 50 meters ahead. Plenty of time to safely stop or slow down. No risk to pile up. Well... no. Wife starts panicking. "brake, brake ! we all gonna have an accident !" (facepalm). The very few severe shitstorms we had together, 90% happened in the car. "Stop here, now. I can't take it anymore." "Next time I'll take the train". "You are putting all of us in danger." "Slow down." "Stop calling others drivers pedophiles, morons or fuckers. I don't care about them." (I do care about those SOBs, as I'm driving among an ocean of stupidity and agressiveness).

Yesterday we were watching Flight (the movie with Denzel Washington high on cocaine and alcohol yet flipping the plane and saving the day, only to face a well deserved trial). During the scary crash scene, the GWPS (Ground Warning Proximity System) can be distinctly heard "WOOP WOOP WOOP, PULL UP. WOOP WOOP WOOP, PULL UP. WOOP WOOP WOOP, PULL UP."

I once told my wife she was exactly that - my car very own GWPS. Now she has inside knowledge how the thing sounds.

WOOP WOOP WOOP - PULL UP.

Except we are never in danger of hitting the planet. Nor any other car.


As a matter of fact, driving in Bordeaux is driving among sociopaths, murderers, SOBs, psychotics... most of the drivers are Dexter Morgans, Hannibal Lecters, Lalo Salamancas, or Gus Frings. Do you know I've been chased around town by some sycophants, just because I flipped the bird or threw a middle finger ?

Ok, back to Tempest...
 
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As would say Gus Fring (as the devoted Los Pollos Hermanos restaurant manager, not the throat-slicing cold blooded murderer) "I'm very pleased to hear that !"
 
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The Haptic touch thing might not work with some. The nature of extreme focus on a task can shut out other inputs.
Certainly I've had such moments and I know a number of people who are the same.
 
The Haptic touch thing might not work with some. The nature of extreme focus on a task can shut out other inputs.
Certainly I've had such moments and I know a number of people who are the same.

I think that might be different if you've been trained to recognise it as a threat warning. Plus tied in with a control system it could be amped up, or added to, if the pilot shows no signs of reacting to the threat.
 
Hmmm... Japanese influence showing? I mean, chop the h-stabs off 25DMU...

Not surprised to see it lose the weird intake/forebody shaping, though apparently that wasn't merely artistic license (there were photos of a wind tunnel model matching the mock-up).
 
Hmmm... Japanese influence showing? I mean, chop the h-stabs off 25DMU...

Not surprised to see it lose the weird intake/forebody shaping, though apparently that wasn't merely artistic license (there were photos of a wind tunnel model matching the mock-up).

“P.189”
 

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More like one of the original 'Concept Spread' aircraft shown pre Farnborough 2018.

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on which Juanita Franzi's artwork was based.

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It shows marked similarities:

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Looks like a menage a trois between an F-22, an F-23 and an EE Lightning (albeit with a very refined wing)
 

EXCLUSIVE Britain and Japan aim to merge Tempest and F-X fighter programmes-sources​


In fairness, it does lack the Su-57-style centre fuselage and widely-spaced engines that characterized 24DMU. In that regard, the original design was actually closer to 24DMU!

Jackonicko raises an interesting point - move the tail booms inboard on the middle concept and you get basically the model configuration. GD's ATF submission went through similar iterations, though the one without outboard fins ended up having a single vertical tail, obviously.
 
Britain to fly new Tempest demonstrator within five years.

Ben Wallace MP, the UK Secretary of State for Defence, has confirmed that Britain plans to lead the development of a new flying combat air demonstrator as part of the Team Tempest programme, which aims to deliver the successor capability to the RAF’s Eurofighter Typhoon via a ‘system of systems’ known as the Future Combat Air System or FCAS.



This demonstrator aircraft will play a critical role in proving the design principles and technology that will underpin the manned fighter aircraft that lies at the heart of FCAS. It will also be the first flying combat air demonstrator designed and developed in the UK in a generation, and it is expected to fly within the next five years.



Charles Woodburn, BAE Systems Chief Executive, said that: “The demonstrator is an exciting once-in-a-generation opportunity providing experienced and young engineers alike a chance to contribute to an endeavour which really matters to our national defence and security.”



This demonstrator will not be a prototype in the traditional sense, as the design can and will continue to evolve. This is possible because so much development, design and testing can be carried out rapidly and efficiently in the virtual world, using synthetic modelling and model-based systems engineering. This means that the traditional ‘metal bashing’ and flight test phases of the project can be telescoped into a much shorter time frame. This in turn means that quite major design decisions can be left much later than would be the case in a traditional programme.



Rather, the demonstrator will provide evidence for the critical technologies, methods and tools that will be used on the core manned platform. As part of the broader activity involved in developing Tempest, the demonstrator programme will also help to retain, further develop and stimulate the next generation of engineers, allowing them to develop the skills and expertise required to deliver this ambitious programme.



It has always been the case that the final Tempest aircraft might look very different to the broadly representative full scale mock up first unveiled at Farnborough four years ago, alongside the launch of the UK’s ambitious Combat Air Strategy. As if to demonstrate this, BAE Systems has a smaller scale model of a very different looking Tempest configuration on its stand, and this apparently illustrates how thinking on the Tempest core manned platform has moved on as a result of modelling, virtual world testing, and evolving requirements work.



The resulting model is somewhat representative of one of the configurations illustrated in a ‘Concept Spread’ PowerPoint slide first unveiled before the 2018 Farnborough show, and bears some resemblance to an even more LO YF-23, with a trapezoidal wing (cropped on the inboard trailing edge) and a butterfly tail. The forward fuselage is somewhat sleeker than that of the existing P.189 configuration, cruelly dubbed as the ‘Pregnant Pelican’ by some observers!



The configuration may move on further before the design for the new demonstrator is frozen, and the demonstrator itself may not be fully representative of the final production aircraft.



The potential for these innovative design and engineering approaches to significantly reduce the time it takes to develop, design, test and deliver complex combat aircraft was demonstrated by Boeing and Saab on their T-7A programme, where they were able to produce a new, clean-sheet-of-paper-design that met all Key User Requirements, and did so while beating existing in-service competitors on price, and in the same timescale! BAE and Team Tempest aim to take this approach even further, and claim that they will also revolutionise support and upgrades exploiting these bleeding edge technologies to ensure that FCAS operators will be able to stay ahead of quickly evolving threats, whilst still delivering an advanced and cost-effective solution.



Other elements of the Future Combat Air System are similarly evolving and changing. Shortly before Farnborough, in late June, the Mosquito Project was cancelled, for example. This was to have produced a Lightweight Affordable Novel Combat Aircraft (LANCA) demonstrator that had been expected to fly in 2023. The Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston, explained that the RAF has “learned and gained a huge amount from our Mosquito program around digital design and novel manufacturing techniques,” but said that: “We’ve decided that our focus now should be on systems that can be operationalized much more quickly, and that is why we have drawn the Mosquito programme to a close." It may be that the FCAS system of systems will have more ‘low end’ diverse and distributed uncrewed adjuncts and effectors, and may not include a more closely ‘tethered’ Loyal Wingman. Interestingly, Lockheed’s thinking seems to be moving in a similar direction in the USA, and the USAF has just confirmed that it will not be proceeding with a Loyal Wingman for its new Northrop B-21 Raider Long Range Strike Bomber.



The point is that, as a result of digital engineering and concepting, modern combat air programmes can be more agile and more adaptable, and ‘late changes’ like these are a great advantage, rather than an indicator of difficulty, delay or failure.



Work on the Tempest demonstrator is being led by BAE Systems, the UK’s sovereign combat air industry leader, working with the Ministry of Defence, Leonardo UK, Rolls-Royce and MBDA UK and a number of suppliers across the UK.



This flagship project is just one of a series of novel technology demonstrators being developed by Team Tempest to demonstrate, test and exercise the skills, tools, processes and techniques that will be needed to ensure that Tempest is as good as it can possibly be when it enters service in 2035.
 
https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/10546/html

Defence Committee
Oral evidence: Aviation Procurement, HC 178
Tuesday 28 June 2022

Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 28 June 2022.

Members present: Mr Tobias Ellwood (Chair); Stuart Anderson; Dave Doogan; Richard Drax; Mr Mark Francois; Mr Kevan Jones; Gavin Robinson; John Spellar.

Questions 1 - 77

Witnesses
Dr Sophy Antrobus, Research Fellow, Freeman Air and Space Institute; Justin Bronk, Senior Research Fellow for Airpower and Technology, Royal United Services Institute.

Examination of witnesses

Justin Bronk: Sorry. In real terms, roughly speaking, on R&D and acquisition alone, not operating costs, Typhoon costs about £35 billion to £36 billion in today’s money as part of a consortium of four. That is about the entire air command budget for the next 10 years for Typhoon in real terms. Tempest is going to be far more complex, far more capable and far more lethal, and is being done as part of a smaller consortium with a lower aircraft number, inevitably, that are going to be made. The odds are that the costs are going to be higher because you are going for a much more complex and difficult thing.

There is a load of really good stuff being done on digital design, testing, manufacturing, new relationships with industry and being able to do things more quickly and efficiently. Even so, even with all that really important work that is going in, it would still be fairly amazing from an objective standpoint if they delivered Tempest for less in real terms than Typhoon cost us. Even if they did, where are you going to find £25 billion? That would be amazing. It would be £10 billion cheaper in real terms than Typhoon for a brand new aircraft suitable for the threats from 2040 to 2070. Where does that come from in a 10-year combat air budget of £21 billion to £22 billion?

Mr Francois: The MoD has told the Public Accounts Committee that it wants Tempest as a programme to be delivered far more quickly than Typhoon. It has made a direct comparison. It is intimating an IOC for Tempest of about 2035, which is quite aggressive. Let us assume for a moment that it is right. Surely, there is going to be no way that it can afford the Typhoons, an early battle Tempest and the 138 F-35Bs. The numbers just do not add up, do they?

Justin Bronk: No, they do not.
 

As such looks like Japan joining Italy & Sweden in what is still pitched as a joint technology demonstrator/ development/ concept analysis program rather than an avowed program for procuring the one specific combat aircraft to which they are all committed to procure.

Again the eventual reality behind some of this rhetoric (are the non-UK countries 100 percent committed to an eventual joint combat aircraft and just don’t want to definitively flag that at this time, or are they happy to pocket the joint technology and continue to keep their future options open) is yet to be seen.
 
Well its looked better than the original mockup so that's a step in the right direction.

I'm wondering what advantages a Tempest would actually bring if it arrives in 2035? Is it going to be stealthier than an F-35? Is it going to have decisively better avionics that the latest Typhoon upgrades?
We've not heard anything much on the radar and weapons systems, though the Japanese version seems a little firmer in this regard.

But I don't doubt now this will go ahead - Japan is a serious partner was wants a 6th Gen fighter. If all goes well with system and engine development in the demonstrator I don't see why Sweden and Italy would not want to get on board if there is a good enough workshare for them (certainly better scope than the crowded SCAF workshare).

So are LANCAs going out of fashion?
As for cancelling Mosquito for "systems that can be operationalized much more quickly" what does that mean? Presumably they want a UCAV that works with Typhoon/F-35 within the next 3-5 years. A Mosquito demonstrator was scheduled for 2023 and surely an operational version would have been ready long before 2035? The fact BAE Systems has similar models at the same show would indicate a real desire from British industry to actually get a UCAV operational. We've already spent 20 years tinkering with one-off prototypes (though if the RAF wanted Ghost Bats that wouldn't be a bad move).
 
Britain to fly new Tempest demonstrator within five years.

Blah!

Well its looked better than the original mockup so that's a step in the right direction.

I'm wondering what advantages a Tempest would actually bring if it arrives in 2035? Is it going to be stealthier than an F-35? Is it going to have decisively better avionics that the latest Typhoon upgrades?
We've not heard anything much on the radar and weapons systems, though the Japanese version seems a little firmer in this regard.

But I don't doubt now this will go ahead - Japan is a serious partner was wants a 6th Gen fighter. If all goes well with system and engine development in the demonstrator I don't see why Sweden and Italy would not want to get on board if there is a good enough workshare for them (certainly better scope than the crowded SCAF workshare).

So are LANCAs going out of fashion?
As for cancelling Mosquito for "systems that can be operationalized much more quickly" what does that mean? Presumably they want a UCAV that works with Typhoon/F-35 within the next 3-5 years. A Mosquito demonstrator was scheduled for 2023 and surely an operational version would have been ready long before 2035? The fact BAE Systems has similar models at the same show would indicate a real desire from British industry to actually get a UCAV operational. We've already spent 20 years tinkering with one-off prototypes (though if the RAF wanted Ghost Bats that wouldn't be a bad move).

Is it going to be stealthier than an F-35? Yes, it's 30 years newer, with 30 years of learning....

Is it going to have decisively better avionics that the latest Typhoon upgrades? Yes - integrated rather than federated, for starters, and with more apertures for sensors, integrated sensors (ISANKE mean anything to you?)

We've not heard anything much on the radar and weapons systems. We have, you know! Google ISANKE

Italy is a full partner and is 'on board'. Sweden wants the effectors and adjuncts and to play in the development sandpit. It probably doesn't want the core manned platform because that would kill its own industry.

There's lots of collaborative work with Japan, but no desire (on either side) to fully merge programmes.

Loyal Wingmen do seem to be going out of fashion in favour of smaller, cheaper, adaptable adjuncts and effectors. There's a great piece on the War Zone about what Lockheed is doing on this, while we've just seen the USAF cancel the Loyal Wingman for the B-21.

LANCA was too much like a Ghost Bat, too big, too expensive, too much capability, too reliant on 'more-than-just-AI' but on machine learning and neural networks that would be problematic ethically and RoE wise, even if they were mature enough to achieve what they need to and - newsflash - they're not!

Note that the MQ-25 began life as an autonomous killer drone batting out AMRAAMs and bombs, and has been confined and constrained until it's a controlled unmanned tanker. I suspect because the technology for the more exciting stuff wasn't anywhere close to being ready.

What we're seeing is a move to an FCAS system-of-systems without the hyper expensive exquisite Loyal Wingmen, but with a diverse, disruptive, distributed network of decoys, weapons, jammers, weapons carriers, dedicated ISR UAVs, stealthy penetrators, etc.
 

As such looks like Japan joining Italy & Sweden in what is still pitched as a joint technology demonstrator/ development/ concept analysis program rather than an avowed program for procuring the one specific combat aircraft to which they are all committed to procure.

Again the eventual reality behind some of this rhetoric (are the non-UK countries 100 percent committed to an eventual joint combat aircraft and just don’t want to definitively flag that at this time, or are they happy to pocket the joint technology and continue to keep their future options open) is yet to be seen.
And that just seems like a rather overtly negative take on the thing, and no I don’t think you can defend your above statement by calling it realist because I am not sure how much it is especially as you know no more than anyone else what’s going on behind the scenes. Seems to be a heck of a lot of over extrapolating from limited info going on in this thread.
 
Britain said on Monday it was collaborating with Japan and existing partner Italy on its next-generation fighter jet programme, with joint concept analysis expected to lead to decisions on deeper partnerships by the end of the year.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said his government was backing aviation and technology.

"I am a passionate believer in the potential of our burgeoning partnership, not just with Italy, but with Japan," he said at the opening of the Farnborough Airshow.

Richard Berthon, UK Director, Future Combat Air, said Britain was talking to "serious countries with serious ambitions to invest".

He said talks with Japan were "going better than to plan".

"The extent of the alignment we found with Japan, both on the military side, on the engineering side and on the investment side is fantastic," he told reporters at Farnborough.


Still under negotiation.
 
Britain said on Monday it was collaborating with Japan and existing partner Italy on its next-generation fighter jet programme, with joint concept analysis expected to lead to decisions on deeper partnerships by the end of the year.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said his government was backing aviation and technology.

"I am a passionate believer in the potential of our burgeoning partnership, not just with Italy, but with Japan," he said at the opening of the Farnborough Airshow.

Richard Berthon, UK Director, Future Combat Air, said Britain was talking to "serious countries with serious ambitions to invest".

He said talks with Japan were "going better than to plan".

"The extent of the alignment we found with Japan, both on the military side, on the engineering side and on the investment side is fantastic," he told reporters at Farnborough.


Still under negotiation.
And there’s your answer to over speculative couple of posts above.
 

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