BAe Tempest and other pre-GCAP studies

[kaiserd]

Because of how much this project will likely cost how many more international partners at a minimum does the U.K. need to sign up to make it more likely to progress to reality?

Why does adding more partners necessarily make it cost less?

It doesn’t necessarily but probably makes such a programme more affordable and realistically achievable for a country like the UK.
Sharing of development costs and greater economies of scale upfront and throughout the service life; not all are necessarily fully realised but they and political costs (and financial penalties) also make it less attractive for one particular government to bail on/ cancel such a project.
Notable in this context that France and Dassault have chosen not to continue on the “national” program track but are partnering with Airbus and Germany. While other countries are actively forgetting lessons they learned decades ago....

 

[SteveO]

View: https://youtu.be/Rx-Rey3bA-M

 

[Jackonicko]

^ has the tempest shape been finalized?

NO, definitely not.

 

[Flyaway]

In addition to detection, the Tempest fighter will likely also be able to use its radar for electronic attack. Once a mission reserved for special mission aircraft, thanks to AESA radars, modern fighters can often perform their own electronic attack (EA) missions.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, can already perform electronic attack missions with its radar, including “false targets, network attack, advanced jamming, and algorithm-packed data streams.” Tempest will likely be able to perform even more sophisticated EA missions with an even more powerful radar system.

The U.K.'s New Fighter Jet Has a Radar System That's Just Ridiculous

Tempest will capture a city's worth of data in one second.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[GARGEAN]

I like "has" in headline.

 

[TomcatViP]

[...] while the French and German governments have already launched the demonstrator phase of their FCAS and aim to begin flight tests in 2026.


By contrast, Team Tempest is in no rush to fly a demonstrator, or even to lock down the design. “The sooner you lock down the design, the sooner it’s obsolete,” observed Andrew Kennedy, Strategic Campaigns Director for BAE Systems Air.

“Traditionally, the capabilities we could bring to the battlespace were restricted at an early stage by the decisions made in designing a platform,” explained Bancroft. “An aircraft would be designed and built, and then companies like Leonardo would work to equip it with useful technology. If you wanted a specific capability, but it wouldn't fit on the aircraft, then straight away you've got a costly and time-consuming problem to solve. We, as Team Tempest have recognized that this model is no longer fit for purpose.”

Instead, Team Tempest initially aims to concentrate on the technologies and capabilities required, compressing platform development by making extensive and unparalleled use of model-based systems engineering and design.

Team Tempest Reveals a Different Approach to FCAS | AIN

The team tasked with engineering the UK’s FCAS are concentrating on technology and capability development ahead of finalizing platform design.

www.ainonline.com

 

[bobbymike]

Britain's Tempest sixth-generation jet fighter will have high-speed radar, artificial intelligence (AI)​

Britain's Tempest sixth-generation jet fighter will have high-speed radar, artificial intelligence (AI)

The Tempest Multi-Function Radio Frequency System radar from Leonardo UK should be able to handle 10,000 times more data than existing systems.

www.militaryaerospace.com

 

[flateric]

Rolls-Royce Defence – Today and Tomorrow

Other event by Royal Aeronautical Society - Solent Branch on Thursday, November 12 2020 with 106 people interested.

www.facebook.com

 

[aonestudio]

Team Tempest strengthens relationship across UK industry | Royal Air Force

More than 70 key industry and Government representatives from across Northern Ireland have engaged with Team Tempest and the Royal Air Force on opportunities to help develop the UK’s next generation of combat air techno

www.raf.mod.uk

 

[kaiserd]

The U.K.’s Futuristic Tempest Fighter: Real Project Or Placeholder?

With a defense review due to report soon, the U.K.'s expensive stealth fighter project may find itself in the firing line. Here's the argument for proceeding, for using it as a chip to join a U.S. 6th generation fighter program, and for doing ... nothing.

www.forbes.com

 

[TomcatViP]

The plane that has no shape yet has a 3D model:

Tempest | Royal Air Force

Tempest is the RAF's next generation combat aircraft, coming into service from 2035 to replace the Typhoon. Discover Tempest's game-changing technologies and capabilities for yourself.

www.raf.mod.uk

 

[Flyaway]

Why Europe’s FCAS projects won’t join formation in 2021

One certainty for 2021 is that Europe's parallel efforts to develop the region's next-generation Future Combat Air System will not see a convergence.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Hood]

No surprises there.
But then 2035 or 2040 is a long ways off. Back in 2005 or 2000 could we have predicted what the situation in 2020 would be like?
All it takes is for Sweden or Italy to jump ship and Tempest is more or less dead. But at this point convergence seems ever more likely the more resources that get pumped in.
Its not even inconceivable that BAE Systems would do what it did to its civilian aircraft programmes and shut up shop and get as far away from airframes as it can once Typhoon production is over if the financial situation gets bleak. Building a third-share of two hundred fighters over three decades doesn't sound like a great long-term business plan.
Will Dassault even still be independent from Airbus in 2040?

 

[TomcatViP]

Sweden MoD just announced the doubling of their budgets in the future, also mentioning the pressure from Russian fighter jets.
Among all their priorities, this could reflect a willingness to increase their momentum in a joint FCAS endeavor.

Since IADS and far north can only translates in longer range, they might found easily a middle ground with their other partners (UK & Italia).

 

[tequilashooter]

Tempest drives forward as Leonardo unveils new radar sensing technology - Leonardo - Aerospace, Defence and Security (leonardocompany.com)

"The reduced size and weight of Leonardo’s new receiver technology, as well as reduced power requirements, means that it will be possible to integrate the sensor into a multi-function array. This concept, one of a number of innovative ideas being considered for Tempest, could see a number of multi-purpose sensors spread around the aircraft, simultaneously sensing and tracking enemy aircraft, incoming missiles and other threats from all directions, while being fully integrated with a forward-facing radar."

Basically every news report is telling me that they are going for a all awareness AESA kind of design for the aircraft. Any news about the aircraft having infrared or UV missile warning sensors?

 

[steelpillow]

Any news about the aircraft having infrared or UV missile warning sensors?

Apologies for my ancient knowledge base, but what possible value would IR or UV have as a warning sensor? Do missiles use these ranges for target tracking these days, or something?

 

[Trident]

Both detect & track the missile not by seeker emissions but (primarily) propulsion signature.

UV: low probability of false alarm, as (barring the sun) there aren't many sources of UV radiation other than missile exhaust plumes around. Can't track missiles after motor burn-out however, and are hence more aptly classed as MLDs ( Missile Launch Detectors).

IR: Potentially more susceptible to false triggers by other thermal sources, but can continue to track missiles after burn-out by aerodynamic heating of the airframe - i.e. proper MAWS (Missile Approach Warning Sensors).

Of course, a dual band system might combine the advantages of both.

 

[steelpillow]

Thanks. You learn something new every day.

 

[TomcatViP]

And here we go (I am deeply sorry that this slipped through our net until now) :

The Italian Minister of Defense Lorenzo Guerini, the British Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace and the Swedish Minister for Defence Peter Hultkvist signed a trilateral Future Combat Air System Cooperation Memorandum of Understanding on Dec. 21, 2020. The news was disclosed by the Italian Government only few days ago.

Italy, United Kingdom And Sweden Sign Tempest FCAS Cooperation Memorandum Of Understanding

The three countries agreed to an equal cooperation for research, development and joint concepting of the Tempest FCAS ahead of the Project Arrangement and

theaviationist.com

 

[FighterJock]

And here we go (I am deeply sorry that this slipped through our net until now) :

The Italian Minister of Defense Lorenzo Guerini, the British Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace and the Swedish Minister for Defence Peter Hultkvist signed a trilateral Future Combat Air System Cooperation Memorandum of Understanding on Dec. 21, 2020. The news was disclosed by the Italian Government only few days ago.

Italy, United Kingdom And Sweden Sign Tempest FCAS Cooperation Memorandum Of Understanding

The three countries agreed to an equal cooperation for research, development and joint concepting of the Tempest FCAS ahead of the Project Arrangement and

theaviationist.com

Good news for Team Tempest.

 

[bobbymike]

Secrets of Tempest’s ground-breaking radar revealed

Radar engineers on the sixth-generation Tempest fighter program say they will break data-processing records by way of miniaturization and going digital.

www.c4isrnet.com

 

[TomcatViP]

@mods : shouldn't this thread title be renamed to reflect the participation of both Italians and Swede (both major players among the European Industry)?

 

[steelpillow]

Secrets of Tempest’s ground-breaking radar revealed

Radar engineers on the sixth-generation Tempest fighter program say they will break data-processing records by way of miniaturization and going digital.

www.c4isrnet.com

"machine learning used to combine and process the overall situational awareness picture"

Oh, dear:

"So why did it fly into the side of a truck?"
"It couldn't tell the white surface from the sky, Ma'am."
"And who did we buy the machine-learning software from?"
"Tesla."
"Oh, I thought it was Uber."
"No, that was the previous contractor, when it ran the batsman down on the aircraft carrier because it didn't recognise the dark human behind the bright bats."
"OK let's change the subject. Why are all the Russian and Chinese jets sporting arbitrary patches of gaffer tape?"
"Because it pulls the pixel-changes which create spurious recognition events by our AI. LIke pasting a sheet of paper on the road to make a self-driving car think it's a road marking and change lanes."
"And the high IFF (Identification Friend or Foe - Ed.) failure rate?"
"The IFF ML subsystem was sourced overseas and turns out to have been trained on the wrong ethnic groups, Ma'am."
"So, what do you suggest as the way forward, young man?"
"What we need right now is a secondary situational awareness system reporting on the primary situational awareness systems!"

Not suggesting these particular features of ML will still be there, but their more sophisticated brethren surely will.

 

[starviking]

Secrets of Tempest’s ground-breaking radar revealed

Radar engineers on the sixth-generation Tempest fighter program say they will break data-processing records by way of miniaturization and going digital.

www.c4isrnet.com

"machine learning used to combine and process the overall situational awareness picture"

Oh, dear:

"So why did it fly into the side of a truck?"
"It couldn't tell the white surface from the sky, Ma'am."
"And who did we buy the machine-learning software from?"
"Tesla."
"Oh, I thought it was Uber"
"No, that was the previous contractor, when it ran the batsman down on the aircraft carrier because it didn't recognise the dark human behind the bright bats."
"OK let's change the subject. Why are all the Russian and Chinese jets wearing arbitrary strips of gaffer tape?"
"Because it pulls the pixel-changes which create spurious recognition events by our AI. LIke pasting a sheet of paper on the road to make a self-driving car think it's a road marking and change lanes."
"Got it! So what we need is a secondary situational awareness system reporting on the primary situational awareness systems!"

Not suggesting these particular features of ML will still be there, but their more sophisticated brethren surely will.

Reminds me of a story on machine learning in Physics World. Researchers used pictures of wolves from the net to teach the program to find wolves. It failed because many pictures of wolves occur with snowy backgrounds... so the program was actually trained to look for snow.

 

[galgot]

Secrets of Tempest’s ground-breaking radar revealed

Radar engineers on the sixth-generation Tempest fighter program say they will break data-processing records by way of miniaturization and going digital.

www.c4isrnet.com

"machine learning used to combine and process the overall situational awareness picture"

Oh, dear:

"So why did it fly into the side of a truck?"
"It couldn't tell the white surface from the sky, Ma'am."
"And who did we buy the machine-learning software from?"
"Tesla."
"Oh, I thought it was Uber"
"No, that was the previous contractor, when it ran the batsman down on the aircraft carrier because it didn't recognise the dark human behind the bright bats."
"OK let's change the subject. Why are all the Russian and Chinese jets wearing arbitrary strips of gaffer tape?"
"Because it pulls the pixel-changes which create spurious recognition events by our AI. LIke pasting a sheet of paper on the road to make a self-driving car think it's a road marking and change lanes."
"Got it! So what we need is a secondary situational awareness system reporting on the primary situational awareness systems!"

Not suggesting these particular features of ML will still be there, but their more sophisticated brethren surely will.

Stealth automatic terrain following software by Tesla ?


Translation :" To escape the radars, this one attacks by flying so low that we had to equip it with turn signals to turn at crossroads ... better: he stops at red lights and does not pretend anything. ... electronically ..."

 

[steelpillow]

FWIW I just added a couple more gags to the above

 

[Forest Green]

There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

 

[Ares]

There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.

 

[zen]

There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.

Yeah we built Skynet....
Reminds me of something I say at work, when people say things like "oh for God's sake" about something (usually related to the management)
"You do realise we work for the other side"

 

[Seeker9]

There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Skynet gonna proud of her boi.

Yeah we built Skynet....
Reminds me of something I say at work, when say things like "oh for God's sake" about something (usually related to the management)
"You do realise we work for the other side"

Flowers are good for all sides of the world .

 

[zebedee]

There's a story about an AI that was tasked with landing a plane with the minimum force on a simulator. It nose-dived the plane into the ground and the resulting force was so large that it overflowed the register in the computer where the force value was stored causing it to default to a zero. The AI felt this was a success.

Thats almost kobayashi maru levels of deviousness...

 

[TomcatViP]

Production of the RAF's new unmanned high-speed combat drone is set to begin in Northern Ireland in a £30million project.

Nicknamed the 'loyal wingman', the aircraft will be designed to fly alongside fighter jets, armed with surveillance and electronic warfare technology to provide a battle-winning advantage over hostile forces.

RAF to start production of high-speed unmanned drone prototype

Production of the RAF's new unmanned high-speed 'loyal wingman' combat drone is set to begin in Northern Ireland in a £30million project, the Ministry of Defence has announced.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[GARGEAN]

Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...

 

[Grey Havoc]

I have noticed that the more we sink into a technological dark age, the more hype and associated buzzwords there are.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I get the feeling every project around has buzz words to attract attention and button clicks/funding. Why should this be any different?

 

[GARGEAN]

All of them got buzzwords and stuff. But I don't think any got THAT MUCH of them at so incredibly early stages (not even a proper design work started, and it's already "world beating" and "wars winning")

 

[TomcatViP]

Notice that the 30 millions is for launching production and not for launching R&D only.
Notice also the original aspect of the design with its positive dihedral and anhedral at the wing tips.

 

[red admiral]

Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...

Lots of the Tempest push is around increased interest in STEM and engineering careers amongst young people. The press releases aren't necessarily aimed at the members of this forum.

At the same time two related things have got conflated. Tempest the technology development activity over the next 5-6 years which is doing things like engine demonstrator and flying testbed with new sensors being prototyped. And Tempest the combat air acquisition programme set up to procure a future combat air system.

 

[TomcatViP]

More details here:

British shell out seed funding for ‘loyal wingman’ combat drone

If the project is successful, the "Mosquito" loyal wingman platform could eventually become the first drone in British service able to target and shoot down enemy aircraft.

www.defensenews.com

Someone should open a thread for team Mosquito

 

[Flyaway]

Is it me or Tempest is by far the most clouded by buzzwords and bragging desighn out of all modern aircrafts? "It has mind-blowing radar!" when work on radar isn' even properly begun. "Production of Loyal Wingman is set to start!" when only 30 mil invested into draft project noone knows what (if anything) will come from. And so much more...

This current government attaches this kind of hot air to anything technological even vaccines where it’s particularly inappropriate in my view.