BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter

Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Just to let you know, all direct orders received as of noon today have been sent.


As for the P.1214 Ralph, it gets all the coverage it is worthy of (i.e one small picture, albeit a new GA). It was never a serious proposition. But it did look cool!


Hopefully, the coverage of the P.1212 will be of interest, as it has not been illustrated before, but was much more serious than the P.1214.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Hi,
Just received my book in the mail today. After a brief glance through, all I can say is ... Fantastic !! :) !! Very detailed ! Everything you could ask on the subject. I have a 90mm EDF unit that's looking for a new home and I think this book will provide it... Bravo !! :)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Got my book today.....very interesting.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Glad they arrived, and that you like them! ;D
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Got mine Saturday from Chris. Was it worth the wait?... oh yes! ;)

Great job Michael.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Amazon still claims it's not avaliable! Any idea when this situation might change for the better?
Regards all
Nova
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Amazon still seem silly slow. Still listed as not in stock although Chris sent theirs to them last week!
banghead.gif


I've been sending out books on a 24 hour turnaround via the direct sales at:

www.harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm

and you get it signed by me for free!

So if anyone wants to cancel their Amazon order and get it direct I can guarantee any orders submitted by Friday lunchtime will be sent out before the weekend, and should be with you (if in the UK) by Saturday.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Welcome to Amazon's chaotic system! When my TSR2 book arrived in the UK, Crowood's distributors too 8 days to turn them round and send any out to suppliers and Amazon then took another two weeks to show it as being in stock.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Mike

Your point about the 1212 is well taken. The material on this is excellent.

Also I had not realised that the Forward Swept Wing idea was so dodgy (I have now checked
up on this on the Web). Nifty bit of disinfo by British Aerospace to use the 1214 artwork as a
red herring in its promotions of the period. Especially as the US FSW programme was all the rage
in British books and magazines of the 80s.

Glad I took your steer to order direct (Blue Envoy always provide great service-I got my Pofflers book straightaway and cannot wait until the AEW book comes out). I did feedback to Amazon that I was cancelling my order because they were giving inaccurate information but got no reply.
I still suggest anyone cancelling urges them to get their act together.

UK 75
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Is there coverage of the disinfo uses of the FSW design in the book? Who was it meant to confuse? Other design firms? I wasn't aware that design was a 'trick'. That version has been fascinating to me since I saw artwork of it in the "Future Fighters and Combat Aircraft" book years ago. I've ordered a copy of the P.1216 book, but it hasn't yet arrived (I'm in the 'States), so I havn't been able to look at it.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Firebee:

The P.1214 was only ever shown as a publicity picture (we've all seen that one) and a desk model for trade show chalets (that someone tried to steal).

The purpose was to give an idea that BAe Kingston were working on ASTOVL without giving away the P.1216. However, the P.1214 was never really studied, just drawn, and only twice at that. Only one version (the -4 of 1984, illustrated in an appendix of the book) had any kind of analysis done on it - a one page note showing FSW was not going to work on such an aircraft. The -1 and -2 were single fuselage FSW shapes, similar to the canard P.1213. All were drawn initially as sketches in a series that led to the P.1212, described in the book.

The book gives more coverage to the P.1212, which led to the P.1216. The problem with giving them all P. numbers is that it gives them all a form of equivalence, that was not deserved in the P.1214's case. About a million times more effort went into the P.1216!

I have sent a few books this week to CA by airmail (California likes the book, maybe beacuse I was there in May?!). If one was for you it should arrive early/mid next week
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Recieved today. EXCELLENT! A shame it was never built, but the book is a fine addition to my library. Thanks for the superb service!
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

.
There is a story to be told regarding cold war "disinformation" in all its forms.
From open/confidention code names, through misrepresentative releases of information and even through more devious routes.
Maybe a few security consultants and MI5 types could be asked to contribute.
.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

DamienB said:
Welcome to Amazon's chaotic system! When my TSR2 book arrived in the UK, Crowood's distributors too 8 days to turn them round and send any out to suppliers and Amazon then took another two weeks to show it as being in stock.
Click to expand...


Amazon still 'out of stock'!


Any orders received at www.harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm by 3.30pm UK time today will be sent out today - a nice bank holiday read! ;D
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Recieved my copy today, superb book, many thanks. Now to find some quiet time to read it :)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce


ordered a copy yesterday ;D
looking forward to read it.
i'm a big fan of vtol aircraft.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Received mine last Saturday (I'm Aaron in California, Michael). I'm slowly reading through, and enjoying it greatly. I got myself a copy of the Yefim Gordon Yak VTOL book:
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/yakovlev-yak-36-yak-38-and-yak-41-the-soviet-jump-jets-red-star-volume-36.html

...and the Yak-41 bears a strong resemblance to the 1216. I know Yakovlev and Lockheed-Martin teamed up at some point to a certain degree. But I wonder about the forked tail on the Yak plane.
Looking forward to your next work, be it SABA or otherwise.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Fascinating book Mike - and thanks for the quick despatch and delivery! Now just need somebody to produce a model of the beast as it's so distinctive it's begging to be sat on my shelf next to a Sea Vixen!
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Thanks Damien!

Judging by who is buying, I reckon many models will appear.

Aaron, I'm glad it arrived - less than the week the post office said it seems.

The forked tail of the Yak 141 and P.1216 were similar solutions to different problems, but with a common cause, and different benefits, if that makes sense!

I've sent out all orders received as of noon today. UK Bank Holiday weekend may slow a few up from the end of last week.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce


got my book today.
I fell in love with directly.
Too bad P1216 wasn't build :'(
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I finally got my hands on my copy today, I've only been able to skim through the contents so far, but it looks well presented and very interesting.

Cheers

Duncan
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I received my copy last week (Thursday if you want to track the postage time to Australia) and it is certainly an excellent publication. Extremely data dense and very enlightening on a very major project that was under reported at the time and since. The quality of the text is first rate and better written, organised, edited and covering the content than most similar unbuilt historical aircraft monographs.

This monograph is extreme value for money for a historian and/or enthusiast; 48 pages of rich data and imagery for only $23 to send it to the other side of the world. My only criticism is it is TOO much value for money. I would have liked to see another 16 pages with many of the BAe technical drawings laid out at three column width (two per page) rather than two column width. Many of these drawings (eg. internal systems layout) are printed too small to easily read the text in the drawings. I for one would have happily paid 15-20 quid for a 64 page version of what we got for 10 quid on 48 pages with bigger technical drawing imagery.

As an aside and commentary on BAe’s promotion of their P.1216 proposal some of the paintings used in the book that BAe commissioned from the art department are backlighted. Backlighting occurs when you take a photo when the thing you are snapping is between you and the sun (or source of light) which causes it to be heavily shadowed. Sometimes you can’t avoid it but certainly no one in publishing wants to print a backlighted photo because it is inferior to a properly illuminated one. But who goes out and PAINTS a backlighted painting? The picture of the RN and USN P.1216s flying in formation is a weird example of this. It’s very hard to see the markings on the USN ‘Tophatter’ squadron P.1216 because they are all in shadow.

As another aside on the potential capability of the P.1216 the BAe design crew predicted a carrier takeoff run via ski jump with full fuel/weapons load of only 50m thanks to the very high thrust of the engine. This would be a very significant change to carrier operation. Such a takeoff run would only need the forward third of a CVF sized carrier dedicated to mission launching (including marshalling areas for aircraft about to launch). This would enable a carrier flight deck to be designed around longitudinal division of the flight deck into takeoff, landing and turnaround (from forward to aft) rather than existing lateral division (tram lines). With a central or part centre island (aka CVA-01) providing an ‘Alaskan Highway’ taxi access from the aft turnaround area to the forward takeoff area this would enable complete simultaneous landing, turnaround and takeoff operations without any interruption from one function on the other. Something no carrier can currently do.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I'm glad the copies arrived. And thanks for the nice words about it.

Abraham - it was a constant discussion about how many pages, should we have dedicated pages of GAs, who'd want to know where the hydraulic reservoirs were to be installed etc.

I have a plan to put up some extra material online, when I get the time.

As for the backlit pics, the Backfire one was based on a photo of a desk model and perhaps the lighting angle came from that. I'll try and dig it out.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

My copy is on its way and from what other's have posted I'm really rather excited. I was never very good waiting for Christmas but I'll do my best ;D
Malky
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Got my copy on Friday. I was maybe even more interested in the other illustrated projects than the P.1216. I too think several drawings could have been bigger, now some are almost literally postage stamp sized. Overall the book provides very good value for money.

As for future works, in addition to SABA I would wish for a volume covering the other BAe ASTOVL and NST.6464 projects, even if they weren't studied as seriously. Perhaps I'm hoping for some sort of trilogy of "BAe non-EFA combat aircraft projects" :)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Although most of the readers of Mike's book are probably modelmakers or at least know
modelmakers there may be some of you, who like me, are not much cop with their hands.

If you want a model of the P1216, which is in the style of the models used by Aircraft
manufacturers as giveaways, and don't mind it not being too accurate I can recommend
this Philippine made wooden desk model in about 1/72 scale.

The firm are very helpful and will paint the model in any scheme you want. They may charge
a bit more for this, depending on the complexity.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P-1216-Hawker-P1216-Airplane-Wood-Model-Free-Ship-New-/120044179256?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1bf330cf38

No, I have no commercial interest in the outfit, but they have been willing to do the odd custom model for me.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Mahogany though... deeply uncool man... save the planet, buy the inevitable forthcoming resin kit instead.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Meteorit said:
Got my copy on Friday. I was maybe even more interested in the other illustrated projects than the P.1216. I too think several drawings could have been bigger, now some are almost literally postage stamp sized. Overall the book provides very good value for money.

As for future works, in addition to SABA I would wish for a volume covering the other BAe ASTOVL and NST.6464 projects, even if they weren't studied as seriously. Perhaps I'm hoping for some sort of trilogy of "BAe non-EFA combat aircraft projects" :)
Click to expand...

The small pics of 'other' projects were to make more space for all the P.1216 ones, and does allow just such a 'BAe non-EFA' volume. The story of UK ASTOVL is a long one, and we aim PTPs to have 48 pages, which was tight for just the P.1216.

The next one I will write will be 'Harrier Projects', such as the Harrier III, the 1980s supersonic Harrier, and will also include SkyHook work. This will have a lot more NST.6464 and ASTOVL material.

As for the P.1216 book, all direct orders received over the weekend have been sent.

Amazon STILL not listing it, three weeks after their distributor got copies... :eek:

Maybe the chaps in the warehouse are reading them :D
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

harrier said:
The next one I will write will be 'Harrier Projects', such as the Harrier III, the 1980s supersonic Harrier, and will also include SkyHook work. This will have a lot more NST.6464 and ASTOVL material.
Click to expand...

Great news! Hopefully we'll get some basic specs also for the not so seriously studied designs somewhere sometime.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Harrier

I think you will have seen how much all the posters have enjoyed your 1216 book. Your
P1154 and AW 681 articles are also the definitive works on these aircraft.

There is considerable appetite for illustrations and plans and info on the whole range of
projects which you have knowledge of. A publisher could easily produce a book costing
55 to 60 Pounds ( a bit like the Friedman books on warships or Damien's TSR 2 work)
on your VSTOL works. Sorry to lumber you with this work, but I think you have established
a clear customer need...

All the best with whatever you come up with-articles or books. But make sure you give us
a heads up here!

UK 75
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I ordered a copy from amazon at the very beginning of July, and it has not yet been dispatched. I am cancelling it now, and I hope I can get it directly through harrier.org at this time.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Rats! It doesn't work. For some weird reason, paypal will only treat me as living in Hong Kong. That is okay for downloaded items, but no use for postage. I cannot live in South Africa and collect my parcels in Hong Kong - I just don't have the time, and it will not allow me to change my address other than to the USA or HK! Anyone out there know of this problem, and the solution? ::)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Foiling,

I have had orders from South Africa via PayPal, so it is possible! Why they won't let you change your address is a mystery though.

However, you can add in 'special instructions' on PayPal, so could put a delivery address in that, or PM me the delivery address on the forum.

Hope that helps!

Mike
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I pre-ordered my copy at Amazon UK. I just went to check it's status and they showed no orders in my account! Anyway, I just ordered it through paypal at his P.1216 site. I'm definitely looking forward to finally getting this and looking forward to Mike's next release. :)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Thanks Mike, I shall explore PayPal again. It has been a very minor setback for a good few years. I very seldom use it, maybe only for Scott Lowther's work, and there it is downloads, so the address problem doesn't arise; but changing it at my paypal account has thus far eluded me.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I've posted a short review in the German Flugzeugforum, so more of the German
aviation nuts should be informed now, too ! ;)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

harrier said:
The next one I will write will be 'Harrier Projects', such as the Harrier III, the 1980s supersonic Harrier, and will also include SkyHook work. This will have a lot more NST.6464 and ASTOVL material.
Click to expand...
Awesome! 2 year wait again? ;)

Mike, will Adrian Mann's artwork reappear in future PTP? Would have been cool to see a P.1216 loaded with Paveway IV bombs and Brimstone missiles refueling from a multi-role VC-10 from Chris's PTP loaded up with Storm Shadow cruise missiles.
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

2 years is nothing - I'm close to 4 years on my P.1121 book :)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Sorry to turn this into "The Four Yorshiremen", but BSP4 took 8 from first proposal.

Chris

(Sent from t'shoe-box in t'middle of t'road)
 
Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Nice to hear ... but is there a "projected publishing date" for Your P.1121 book ??

... and regarding time for preparation ... I'm currently in year 6 :eek:

Deino
 

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