Avro CF-105 Arrow and its variants

[Barrington Bond]

The six engine variant could be the underwing ramjet version?

Regards,
Barry

 

[Apophenia]

The late Randy Whitcomb's book is highly recommended. Moonbat's image is the Arrow Mk.3.

There were at least three different ram-jet studies. The ram-jet assisted series began with the Arrow PS-1 with cranked wings (near-parallel chord on the outer panels), wingtip ram jets, and canards mounted above/behind the rear cockpit. The concept evolved into the six-engined Arrow PS-2.

The Arrow PS-2 had less extreme cranked outer panels. On the outer wing join-line were pylons fitted with both the permanently-mounted Curtiss-Wright ram-jets (two per side) and the much-shortened main undercarriage. Compared with the Arrow Mk.2, the PS-2's nose was lengthened with retractable canards in the added bay.

The Arrow PS-2 was submitted to the USAF [who also funded it, IIRC]. The concept was judged sound (although some doubted performance claims, which Whitcomb took issue with) but the design was excessively fast at the expense of range.

The Arrow Mk.4 was essentially a simplified, reduced performance PS-2. The Mk.4 retained the pylon arrangement but the Curtiss-Wright ram-jets were smaller.

I've seen the GOR.339 Arrow development described as a Mk.2 with thicker wing skins. It was my impression that the GOR.339 design was based on the Mk.4 (ie: not drop tanks but permanent fuel pods which include the main gear).

[BTW, the ABM launch image is by Paul McDonell with RL Whitcomb]

 

[hesham]

Hi,

A projected version of the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow with four ramjets under its wing, in addition to the two turbojets in the fuselage, fires an anti-satellite missile.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Hesh! Shukren! I've been looking for that. I need a new fancy wallpaper for my computer at school.

 

[Apophenia]

A projected version of the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow with four ramjets under its wing, in addition to the two turbojets in the fuselage, fires an anti-satellite missile.

This is the Arrow PS-2 painted by Paul McDonell (whose mach3graphics site seems to have disappeared). The original was painted for the late Randy Whitcomb's "Avro Aircraft & the Cold War" as mentioned above.

 

[royabulgaf]

I love it when the missile launcher pops out of the Arrow. BOINNG! Is that a satellite launcher in your bomb bay or are you just happy to see me? ;D

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Merged various Arrow topics.

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

Love the images posted here. ;D

 

[airrocket]

Iranian Arrow...there must be some wiggle room or the rules become stifling to the flow of information and knowledge. I found the reference very interesting lending credence to the concept in general.

 

[Avimimus]

I take it that there were never any proposals for a strike/bomber derivative?

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

I take it that there were never any proposals for a strike/bomber derivative?

There was some (limited?) interest in an interdictor version of the Arrow by the RAF (along with the B-58 Hustler and some other North American planes), but it was decided to ask the British aircraft industry to build something of their design, which lead to the TSR-2.

 

[elmayerle]

I take it that there were never any proposals for a strike/bomber derivative?

Actually, according to Randall Whitcomb, and other Arrow sources, there was a proposal put to the RAF for such. I believe Randall's book on Avro Aircraft has a picture he made of it in consultation with Jim Floyd.

 

[Richard N]

An item described as "1958 Avro Arrow CF-105 Aircraft Pilots Ejection Seat Martin Baker MkC5 serial 11" is listed on eBay here: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140661959206&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en There is a very detailed and interesting description of how the seller tracked it down and it would be an incredible story if if a CF-105 did wind up in the UK.

 

[Richard N]

Re: Avro Arrow Ejection Seat on eBay

The description from the listing:

[font=]Avro Arrow CF-105 Aircraft Martin Baker Ejection seat[/font]​

[font=]Missing Avro Arrow Mystery SOLVED....?[/font]​

[font=]Jet Art Aviation LTD Brings you a once in a lifetime opportunity.[/font]​

[font=]The chance to own a piece of Canadian National Treasure.[/font]​

[font=]The ultimate Canadian, Jet Age museum exhibit or Private collector’s item.[/font]​

[font=]An item that in our opinion goes a long way to solving the Mystery of the Missing Avro Arrow[/font]​

[font=]This is a Martin Baker MKC5 Pilots Ejection seat from an Avro Arrow CF-105 Aircraft.[/font]​

[font=]It comes with a letter of authenticity from Martin Baker.[/font]​

​

[font=]Dated 1958 with Serial Number 11 this is an incredibly rare item that represents thepinnacleof the Canadian Aerospace industry. Only a handful of these seats were produced prior to the cancellation of the Arrow project with all aircraft, tooling, blueprints and equipment including ejection seats being ordered destroyed by the Canadian government of the time.[/font]​

[font=]The Avro Arrow Mk C5 Ejection seats were built at the Martin-Baker (Aircraft Company Limited) factory at Collingwood, Ontario and we know of only one other surviving example which we, Jet Art Aviation LTD, found, restored and returned to Canada in 2008. That seat is now on display in the Toronto Aerospace Museum and is unlikely to ever be offered for sale. This leaves the seat you are looking at, serial number 11, available as a unique acquisition opportunity.[/font]​

[font=]This also raises a number of questions about how a pair of Avro Arrow MkC5 ejection seats with minor differences (suggesting a front pilot seat and a rear Navigators / weapons system operator seat) ended up in the UK? It also sparked for me personally a huge fascination with the Avro Arrow and started me on a road to researching the Avro Arrow story. A story of myth, legend and conspiracy. I believe this very seat (serial number 11) along with the seat (serial number 14) now on display in the Toronto aerospace museum are from the‘Missing Avro Arrow’. The Arrow that was rumoured to have disappeared and vanished being spirited away when the project was cancelled and the destruction began.....[/font]​

[font=]Our story and interest in the Avro Arrow began in 2008. We purchased an old, un loved ejection seat from a private collector and set about restoring and researching the seat. He had purchased the seat from a defunct aviation museum in the North of England that closed and sold off their assets. The museum it came from had not identified the seat and it sat gathering dust in a museum store room. No one knew what the seat was or where it had come from apart from the fact that it had originated from the BAC Warton factory sometime in the late 1970’s. [/font]BAC Warton was the British aircraft factory heavily involved with the British TSR2 program. The TSR2 program was some 7 years behind the Arrow but the two aircraft programs had many similarities, both being ground breaking aircraft well ahead of their time. Strangely both projects suffered the same fate being axed at the hands of the politicians.​

[font=]Once the first seat (serial number 14) had been restored we sent it to Canada for auction and a deal was done to secure the seat for the Toronto Aerospace museum. A good result for aircraft preservation and a great result for Canada. However one thing that still niggled me was how a super rare variant ejection seat, built in Canada for a cancelled Canadian aircraft program in which everything had been order destroyed had survived and made it to England?[/font]​

[font=]Shortly after the first seat had been returned to Canada I learnt by complete chance of the existence of another privately owned Avro Arrow MkC5 ejection seat (serial number 11) existing in the North of England. Again this seat is believed to have originated from near the BAC factory at Warton sometime in the late 1970’s. The chances of two of these seats surviving were incredibly slim and the fact that they had both turned up in the UK were even more puzzling. It took 3 years to secure the 2nd[/font] seat and once in our possession the research could really begin. The seats both had the same date and part number but different serial number and component numbers. Minor differences suggest that this was a matched pair of seats a front and a rear. The seats came with the ejection guns which have the mount points as if they had been correctly removed from the aircraft. The seats are structurally in used condition with wear and tear suggesting they were fitted and used, not[font=] once or twice but numerous times. Both seats also have modification plates fitted, each showing 8x modifications being carried out. [/font]Seat serial number 14 (Now in The Toronto Museum) has a sun bleached section on the anodised aluminium head box of the seat. This is at an angle near identical to that of the front canopy of the CF-105 Arrow. It would have take a few years to sun bleach like that which tells me this seat sat in a Front Arrow cockpit for a considerable length of time. This Seat serial number 11 overall has much less of a sun bleached appearance suggesting it is from the rear cockpit. The rear cockpit on an arrow has no canopy as such and is basically a dark hole sealed by two clam shell door over the pilots head with only two small windows left and right.​

[font=]The final icing on the cake for my theory that a CF-105 Arrow had made it to England for testing and evaluation purposes was a chance conversation with a customer who called in to visit. We have an Olympus 320 engine in the workshop from the TSR2 program and as he stood admiring it and chatting about the TSR2 aircraft he commented on how similar the Avro Arrow and TSR2 programme were. He stopped me half way through the conversation and asked me if I had ever heard of an Avro Arrow visiting the UK? ‘‘Um strange’’ I said ‘’Ok you have my full attention. Tell me more’’. He then proceeded to tell me a story which sent a shiver down my spine. He had no idea that we had found a pair of Arrow seats and that I had my own theory of how they came to the UK but what he then told me fully backed up this theory. In return I told him about the two seats and it ended for him a mystery that had puzzled and perplexed him for the best part of 50 years![/font]​

[font=]In the early 1960’s as a school boy he spent the summer holidays with family in Kent England close to the RAF Manston air base. In the 1960’s Manston[/font][font=] was a major diversionary airfield for aircraft in trouble and was also the Royal Air Force fire training school. As an avid aviation enthusiast he spent every day with friends around the perimeter fence watching the aircraft. It was on one of those days that he saw something that had stuck in his mind ever since. Appearing from over the sea on a low level approach with undercarriage down appeared a white, high delta wing aircraft with a black nose and no national markings or registration. He described the aircraft in detail including the large fin, long extended nose undercarriage leg, small pilots canopy, rectangular section air intakes etc. He had seen Avro Arrow aircraft in magazines and news papers and knew exactly what he was looking at. He is adamant that what he saw was an Arrow. The aircraft touched down and taxied out of site before shutting down. He described the engine sound as highly unusual. A very powerful sounding turbojet nothing like he had heard before or since.[/font]​

​

[font=]Could this Arrow have been fitted with the Orenda Iroquoisengines? The Orenda Iroquois engine was a highly advanced and incredibly powerful power plant specifically designed for the Arrow. These engines were also ordered destroyed when the project was cancelled. Of the five arrows that had left the production line and the ones that had flown had been fitted with the Pratt and Whitney J-75 engine. No Arrow was ever believed to have flown under the power of the Orenda Iroquois. Had Avro Canada employees managed to get an Arrow fitted with the Iroquois engines out of the plant and away to safety in England? I believe so! [/font][font=]Indeed, it is[/font][font=] now known that at least one Orenda Iroquois turned up at Bristol Siddeley Aero engines in England! The plot thickens......[/font]​

[font=]The next step of my research was to try and find more information about an Avro Arrow landing at RAF Manston.I could find no documentation or any reference in books or on the internet. Chances are any official documents will be covered by the 50 year rule and will not made public for the next few years when all of this can either be proved or not. The only option left was to talk to the ‘old boy network’ and do a bit of digging to see what I could find. It wasn’t long before I hit the jackpot and found an ex RAF fitter now retired and involved in the museum scene who had heard a rumour about an Arrow being at Manston. He needed no prompting and told me the story that backed everything up perfectly. A friend of his who used to be based at manston [/font][font=]had told of an Arrow landing there in secret. He stressed to me that it was ‘hearsay’ but within the 1960’s RAF it was fairly common knowledge and in his words an ‘Air Force myth’ but he had no photographs or documents to back it up and did not know the exact date. [/font]When I asked what he thought the Arrow was doing at Manston what[font=] he said made perfect sense but also saddened me. ‘Well they burnt it didn’t they?’ It was the perfect place to destroy it. The base with a huge long runway where it was capable of landing, and behind a high perimeter fences the fire training school burnt aircraft on a regular basis. Nobody would have batted an eye lid. My eye witness who saw the Arrow land also described watching aircraft such as Vickers Viking’s being scrapped there and large aircraft such as a Vulcan and Hastings being used for the fire training school. [/font]It makes sense that the Avro Arrow was spirited away to the UK as at this particular time in the early 1960’s the UK was at the forefront on the Aviation world. The English Electric Lightning was in service and TSR2 was well into production. I personally think the aircraft would have been test flown, evaluated, studied and milked for all her secrets and when there was nothing left to learn from the aircraft she was quietly destroy to prevent any political embarrassment and awkward questions. It makes sense that she was burnt out then either broken up into unrecognisable lumps leaving the base in scrap skips or [font=]bulldozed into a huge hole in the ground and buried. If so sections of the missing Arrow could still be there. The Arrow was seen to land at Manston but no one ever saw one leave......[/font]​

[font=]Politically and corporately this is all highly probably. Britain and Canada are both close allies with the British and Canadian aerospace industries being closely entwined. After the cancellation of the Arrow project Avro Canada was eventually taken over in 1962 by the UK Hawker Siddeley group with all assets being transferred to Hawker Siddeley Canada, however main control came from the UK. Previously in 1945 UK based Hawker Siddeley group had purchased Victoria Aircraft from the Canadian Government and created A.V. Roe Canada Ltd so the history of the two companies was already set in stone. I am sure in the time of crisis when ‘Black Friday’ loomed and it was evident that the masterpiece that was the Avro Arrow would be destroyed and lost forever at the hands of the politicians the management of Avro Canada turned to Hawker Siddeley who in turn most likely turned to the UK Air Ministry to hatch a plan to save one of the aircraft.[/font]​

[font=]Taken directly from Wikipedia: [/font]‘’Rumours had circulated that Air Marshal W.A. Curtis, a 1st World War ace who headed Avro, had ignored Diefenbaker (Canadian Prime Minister at the time) and spirited one of the Arrows away to be saved for posterity. These rumours were given life in a 1968 interview, when Curtis was asked point-blank if the rumour was true. He replied: "I don't want to answer that." He proceeded to question the wisdom of printing the story of a missing Arrow, and wondered whether it would be safe to reveal the existence of a surviving airframe only nine years later. "If it is in existence it may have to wait another 10 years. Politically it may cause a lot of trouble." The fanciful legend endures that one of the prototypes remains intact somewhere.’’​

[font=]52 years later I believe the missing Avro Arrow mystery has been solved.[/font]​

[font=]I believe the ejection seats and other components (possibly even engines?) may have been removed prior to the aircraft destruction. If burning was the planned form of destruction the aircraft seats will have been removed to be disarmed as the pyrotechnics charges would have cooked off in a fire. It is likely that removed components including the pair of seats then went to Hawker Siddeley or BAC for further evaluation purposes and the engines if removed to Bristol Siddeley or Rolls Royce. As stated above, it is[/font] now known that at least one Orenda Iroquois turned up at Bristol Aero Engines in England! As both seats are known to have originated from the former BAC plant at Warton it makes sense that all removed components eventually ended up there when Hawker Siddeley and BAC merged in 1966. Another 10 years down the line in the 1970’s time will have taken its toll and people will have forgotten what the dusty old seats in storage were or where they had come from. I believe it was then that management within BAC must have made the decision to dispose of them locally not knowing what they were.​

[font=]Taking all this into account what you are looking at is a monumentally important historic aviation artefact that along with my research and the eye witness account go a very long way to solving one of aviation's most discussed mysteries.[/font]​

[font=]All major structural components are original to the seat and have ‘MBEUAVR’ (Martin Baker / Avro) part numbers and are dated 1958. Soft furnishings (parachute, survival pack, harness, seat cushion) are not original however they are a very accurate representation of the correct period, and are dated circa 1958. We have subtly restored the seat by fitting components such as these to accurately represent what the seat would have looked like when fitted in the aircraft.[/font]​

[font=]Please study the photos. They paint thousand words. The seat is stunning.[/font]​

[font=]As this is in my opinion an Item of Canadian National Treasure that truly deserves to go to a good home, preferably in Canada, we invite Canadian museums to contact us to be put on our shortlist of potential new homes for this item. Should we get a beneficiary wanting to purchase this item and put it on public display we will pass on the list of museums.[/font]​

[font=]This seat also in my opinion holds the answer to one of the most discussed mysteries and controversial chapters of aviation history and as such is really an irreplaceable item of significant Canadian national importance. As an item like this is near impossible to value the figure for this listing has been estimated as approximate minimum insurance value however in reality the seat is irreplaceable.[/font]​

[font=]I thank you for taking the time to read our eBay listing and listening to our theory on the ‘Missing Avro Arrow’. I hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have enjoyed the journey of research and discovery.[/font]​

[font=]One final thought: If this seat could talk I bet it could tell a few secrets. Just think it’s highly likely a test pilot sat in this seat fitted to a Iroquois engine equipped Avro Arrow that will have been thoroughly put through its paces in a flight test program. How fast did it do? How high did it go? Somebody somewhere knows![/font]​

[font=] Best Regards[/font]
[font=]Chris Wilson[/font]
[font=]Managing Director[/font]
[font=]Jet Art Aviation LTD[/font]
[font=]UK[/font]

[font=]Photos of the first seat serial number 14 Now on Display in Toronto can be seen here:[/font]​

http://toronto.empireauctions.com/newsItem.php?id=123​

 

[Orionblamblam]

Re: Avro Arrow Ejection Seat on eBay

Hmm. An Arrow ejector seat, an A-12 canopy... pretty soon eBay will have the makings of a perfectly cromulent Anime robot jet fighter.

If an RL-10 shows up... then we'll know it's destiny.

 

[Richard N]

Re: Avro Arrow Ejection Seat on eBay

If you wanted to find the makings of an Anime Robot Jet Fighter, a good place to start would be Jet Art Aviation LTD's eBay Store: http://stores.ebay.ca/Jet-Art-Aviation-LTD At the top of their list by highest price first are a TSR-2 Olympus Engine, the Arrow Ejection Seat, and the Cockpit and Noses of a Buccaneer and Tornado. Jet Art Aviation Art LTD's website has a wealth of aviation enthusiast's treasures and services associated with finding and restoring them: http://www.jetartaviation.co.uk/

 

[Richard N]

Could anyone comment on the seller's description that the Avro Arrow Ejection Seat he is selling may have come from an Arrow that was spirited away to the UK and escaped the torch?

Is this only an urban aviation myth backed up by an interesting piece of hardware?

I have been to the Arrow exhibits at both the Canada Aviation Museum and the Toronto Aerospace Museum and you see the love that the Canadians had for this aircraft and how it is still like a knife in the heart of every aviation enthusiast in Canada. The torch marks on the nose in Ottawa are an ugly thing to see, but it is certainly better than seeing only pictures.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Highly unlikely. If he seriously wanted to check the provenance of the seat, an email to Martin-Baker would probably reveal much more than listening to half-baked conspiracy theories. Their historical records are pretty good.

 

[LowObservable]

Strange story...

Somewhere in the recesses of my library is a Flight or FRI from the 1960s, including a letter to the editor from a schoolkid who claimed to have seen what looked like a white Javelin. Neither magazine routinely published letters like that.

The Arrow story brought that to mind immediately.

 

[shockonlip]

This is fun!

Pass the marshmallows. Mine fell off into the fire.

 

[LowObservable]

It would be a hoot if a CF-105 turned up in the back of a hangar at Boscombe, concealed behind a stack of Beverley parts.

 

[Gridlock]

Highly unlikely. If he seriously wanted to check the provenance of the seat, an email to Martin-Baker would probably reveal much more than listening to half-baked conspiracy theories. Their historical records are pretty good.

.. There's a letter dated October 2011 from Andrew Martin of Martin-Baker stating that ejection seat sernum 11 was fitted to Avro Arrow Cf105... So there's that.

 

[DamienB]

That anybody is even taking the story half-seriously is pretty depressing.

So an Arrow was transported to the UK (clearly not flown there as it didn't have the range), then flight tested in the UK (Boscombe Down? Farnborough?) without anybody noticing or writing anything down in any documentation (we can't keep embarassing secrets about torturing Kenyans in the 50s but can keep secret buying a junked aircraft?), then landed to be disposed of at RAF Manston at a time when Manston was a joint RAF station and civilian airfield with regular airliner traffic... and naturally nobody in Ramsgate noticed that either.

What use would it be to the UK? It was evaluated and dismissed years earlier. There were no construction techniques or materials in use on the Arrow that the UK aviation industry didn't already know about; only the Iroqouis engines could have been of any interest and you don't need an airframe which hasn't even been fitted with those particular engines, do you?

Still I guess it's done it's job of publicising the ebay auction nicely :

 

[Archibald]

Here the origin of that urban legend (according to Le Fana de l'aviation, 269, May 1992)
http://www.bobmcqueen.ca/CF105.htm

February 2 1959: only 18 days before the "Black Friday". Avro Arrow RL-204, pilot Peter Cope, is flying over Malton as usual. then, small glitch: a trans-Canada Viscount lands on its belly, blocking the runway. Cope is ordered to land at RCAF Trenton, and successfully divert there. He lands the machine, which spent the night there, and the two return to Malton the next morning.

It was the first (and only) time an Arrow landed anywhere out of Malton. And it was a RCAF base - adding to the frustration of course.

Then come the Black Friday, and the rumour - that RL-204 had remained at Trenton, and escaped destruction. Unfortunately, this is not true.

When the (crazy) order come to destroy everything, the airframes were melted away inside the plant... with obvious safety risks. So the work had to be moved outside, and then asomeone hired a smallplane and overflew the disaster, taking pictures of the desolation. Looks like every Arrow could be identified - none got away.
Except, of course, the infamous RL-206 front section, aparently hide by disgruntled workers.

And yes, General electric tried to buy some airframes to use them as testbed. Government said "no". Avro Canada also aparently tried to push the Arrow to Great Britain via the Hawker siddeley connection, to no avail. Tentative testbed for the future SST was no more successful.

 

[aam641]

If somebody was able to spirit away one out of only 6 completed Arrows and find a pilot crazy enough to fly it across the Atlantic, good for them. It probably did not help that the Arrow was only supposed to have ferry range of about 2000km and the completed units had no radar, no navigation systems and only rudimentary communications.

 

[Zeppelin]

Ok enough debate about secret deployed and any stored Avro Arrows, can anyone compare the North American A-5 Vigilante up against the Canadian Avro, they look alike, at least superficially ? were they competitors or really after different budget allocations?
Regards all

 

[Archibald]

Totally different. The Vigilante was a naval nuclear strike bomber, the Arrow was an interceptor.

 

[alfakilo]

Ok enough debate about secret deployed and any stored Avro Arrows, can anyone compare the North American A-5 Vigilante up against the Canadian Avro, they look alike, at least superficially ? were they competitors or really after different budget allocations?
Regards all

Interesting question.

Apples and oranges, I think, with one jet being designed as a carrier borne nuclear strike bomber and the other a high altitude interceptor. But, given the success of modifying the F-101 from a nuke bomber to an interceptor, I suppose it might have been possible.

 

[AAAdrone]

Ok enough debate about secret deployed and any stored Avro Arrows, can anyone compare the North American A-5 Vigilante up against the Canadian Avro, they look alike, at least superficially ? were they competitors or really after different budget allocations?
Regards all

If anything was being made in America that was "comparable" to the Canadian Avro Arrow it would be the F-108 which looks a lot more similar to the Arrow. They were both immense interceptors but neither country was competing or anything. Each nation had their project to defend their country from mach 3 superbombers.

The F-108 was superior to the Avro Arrow anyway. It had a greater effective speed, mission radius, operational altitude, range, etc. I said comparable in the sense that both were large interceptors with similar planforms.

 

[firepilot]

Totally different. The Vigilante was a naval nuclear strike bomber, the Arrow was an interceptor.

True, however the cancelled F-108, did lead to its A-5 Vigilante descendant.


For anyone who wants to see, there is a quick shot of a Vigilante in the movie "The Final Countdown", must have been one of the very last ones in service.

 

[Arjen]

True, however the cancelled F-108, did lead to its A-5 Vigilante descendant.

The prototype Vigilante first flew in 1958, F-108 never flew and was cancelled September 23, 1959. They may have shared technology, but calling the A-5 the F-108's descendant doesn't seem right. If anything, it would be the other way round.

 

[Stargazer]

They may have shared technology, but calling the A-5 the F-108's descendant doesn't seem right. If anything, it would be the other way round.

Can you develop? Why would the Rapier be derived from the Vigilante?

 

[Arjen]

Why would the Rapier be derived from the Vigilante?

That's what firepilot says, not me:

True, however the cancelled F-108, did lead to its A-5 Vigilante descendant.

Don't think so. If there's any more information on that, I'd love to see it.

 

[Stargazer]

But you said the exact opposite!!!
He said that the A-5 was a descendant of the F-108, therefore it's not "the other way round" as you suggested! Or did I miss something??

 

[Arjen]

What I meant to say (begging your pardon if this didn't come across): if there is any predecessor-descendant relationship between the F-108 and the A-5, it would be the F-108 being the descendant of the A-5, as opposed to the A-5 as a descendant of the F-108. As I understand it, a descendant can only come into being after its predecessor. English is not my first language; if I've used the terms the wrong way, feel free to correct me.

I haven't considered any such relationship between the two types before.

 

[Johnbr]

Found this the CTV tv web site.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/avro-arrow-mystery-deepens-with-u-k-discovery-1.741854

In the early 1960’s as a school boy he spent the summer holidays with family in Kent England close to the RAF Manston air base. In the 1960’s Manston was a major diversionary airfield for aircraft in trouble and was also the Royal Air Force fire training school. As an avid aviation enthusiast he spent every day with friends around the perimeter fence watching the aircraft. It was on one of those days that he saw something that had stuck in his mind ever since. Appearing from over the sea on a low level approach with undercarriage down appeared a white, high delta wing aircraft with a black nose and no national markings or registration. He described the aircraft in detail including the large fin, long extended nose undercarriage leg, small pilots canopy, rectangular section air intakes etc. He had seen Avro Arrow aircraft in magazines and news papers and knew exactly what he was looking at. He is adamant that what he saw was an Arrow. The aircraft touched down and taxied out of site before shutting down. He described the engine sound as highly unusual. A very powerful sounding turbojet nothing like he had heard before or since.

Could this Arrow have been fitted with the Orenda Iroquois engines? The Orenda Iroquois engine was a highly advanced and incredibly powerful power plant specifically designed for the Arrow. These engines were also ordered destroyed when the project was cancelled. Of the five arrows that had left the production line and the ones that had flown had been fitted with the Pratt and Whitney J-75 engine. No Arrow was ever believed to have flown under the power of the Orenda Iroquois. Had Avro Canada employees managed to get an Arrow fitted with the Iroquois engines out of the plant and away to safety in England? I believe so! Indeed, it is now known that at least one Orenda Iroquois turned up at Bristol Siddeley Aero engines in England! The plot thickens......

The next step of my research was to try and find more information about an Avro Arrow landing at RAF Manston.I could find no documentation or any reference in books or on the internet. Chances are any official documents will be covered by the 50 year rule and will not made public for the next few years when all of this can either be proved or not. The only option left was to talk to the ‘old boy network’ and do a bit of digging to see what I could find. It wasn’t long before I hit the jackpot and found an ex RAF fitter now retired and involved in the museum scene who had heard a rumour about an Arrow being at Manston. He needed no prompting and told me the story that backed everything up perfectly. A friend of his who used to be based at manston had told of an Arrow landing there in secret. He stressed to me that it was ‘hearsay’ but within the 1960’s RAF it was fairly common knowledge and in his words an ‘Air Force myth’ but he had no photographs or documents to back it up and did not know the exact date. When I asked what he thought the Arrow was doing at Manston what he said made perfect sense but also saddened me. ‘Well they burnt it didn’t they?’ It was the perfect place to destroy it. The base with a huge long runway where it was capable of landing, and behind a high perimeter fences the fire training school burnt aircraft on a regular basis. Nobody would have batted an eye lid. My eye witness who saw the Arrow land also described watching aircraft such as Vickers Viking’s being scrapped there and large aircraft such as a Vulcan and Hastings being used for the fire training school. It makes sense that the Avro Arrow was spirited away to the UK as at this particular time in the early 1960’s the UK was at the forefront on the Aviation world. The English Electric Lightning was in service and TSR2 was well into production. I personally think the aircraft would have been test flown, evaluated, studied and milked for all her secrets and when there was nothing left to learn from the aircraft she was quietly destroy to prevent any political embarrassment and awkward questions. It makes sense that she was burnt out then either broken up into unrecognisable lumps leaving the base in scrap skips or bulldozed into a huge hole in the ground and buried. If so sections of the missing Arrow could still be there. The Arrow was seen to land at Manston but no one ever saw one leave.....

 

[Jemiba]

After all, that I've read in this thread, I would say "Old rumours never die".
IF an Orenda engine was brought to Britain, it probably wouldn't have been the easiest and
most secret way to bring it along with an Avro Arrow ?
I think, it's quite realistic, that this guy had seen an aircraft, that was quite unusual in Manston.
His description perfectly matches the A-5/RA-5, maybe it's still possible to look for documents about
such visits. And that nobody ever saw an Avro Arrow leaving Manston would be explained then, too !
Reminds me on the "visit" of two German Airforce F-84 to Berlin Tegel airport on the 13th of August
1961, leading to much debate (in much secrecy, of course !) and many disciplinary sanctions. Today,
this incident is well knowm, nevertheless, broesing through several sites and fora, you'll still find people
swearing, that it weren't Republic ThunderThunderstreaks, but defecting Soviet MiGs. And one of the
main argumenmt, too, is, that they were never seen leaving that airport again !

 

[Murray B]

After all, that I've read in this thread, I would say "Old rumours never die"...

It is not just a "rumour" but the the facts have been obscured by over fifty years of bowdlerdash [invented word] coming from Arrow zealots.

When the facts are known many of the mysteries disappear.

Avro Canada was wholly British-owned since its creation shortly after WWII. At the time when the Arrow was cancelled the top guy at Avro Canada was Sir Roy Dobson in London, England. Since Avro Canada was part of Hawker Siddeley it is not unexpected that Avro Canada property would be transferred to one if its sister companies in the U.K.

This could have involved an entire aircraft and one has been missing from the record since the program was cancelled. Reliable documents show that six Arrows were made but only five destroyed. The first five Arrows were fitted with P&W J75 engines rated at 24,000 lbt. with reheat and these belonged to the RCAF. Government records indicate these five aircraft were reduced to scrap. A sixth aircraft was completed with Orenda Iroquois engines provisionally rated for 25,000 lbt. with reheat. The sixth never flew before the program was cancelled because one of the engines "threw a blade" before the aircraft could be tested. The fate of this Arrow has never been public knowledge.

Now two Martin-Baker ejection seats and an Orenda Iroquois engine from an Arrow have been found in the U.K. Since there is no practical reason for anyone to send Canadian-made Martin-Baker seats to England where Martin-Baker originates this is strong evidence the missing Arrow was sent over there.

Now we know in a general sense where the aircraft was sent but its final disposition is still a mystery.

 

[Archibald]

two Martin-Baker ejection seats

Were the Arrow ejection seats purpose-build for that aircraft ? Otherwise there is nothing surprising finding Martin Baker ejection seats in Great Britain

Reliable documents show that six Arrows were made but only five destroyed. The first five Arrows were fitted with P&W J75 engines rated at 24,000 lbt. with reheat and these belonged to the RCAF. Government records indicate these five aircraft were reduced to scrap. A sixth aircraft was completed with Orenda Iroquois engines provisionally rated for 25,000 lbt. with reheat. The sixth never flew before the program was cancelled because one of the engines "threw a blade" before the aircraft could be tested.

No, no, no and no.

First, there was 36 Arrows on the production line when the program stopped.

Arrows with J-75 that flew
RL-201
RL-202
RL-203
RL-204
RL-205

Why 36 ?
Because, much like the F-102, the Arrow was to skip the prototype / pre-production stage and move to operational aircraft straight ahead.
The F-102 (and Convair) paid a very high price for that when it was found aerodynamics were flawed from the beginning. Avro Canada escaped that ungainly fate.

The Arrow you mention was the RL-206, and it was never send to England. It was scrapped like all others machines, its nose section was salvaged by disgruntled workers and is shown in a Canadian aviation museum.

The Arrow that got away rumour came from the incident I described earlier in this thread (February 3, 1959 landing at Trenton RCAF base, but the aircraft returned the next day and was scrapped like everything else, two weeks later)

Avro Canada was wholly British-owned since its creation shortly after WWII. At the time when the Arrow was cancelled the top guy at Avro Canada was Sir Roy Dobson in London, England. Since Avro Canada was part of Hawker Siddeley it is not unexpected that Avro Canada property would be transferred to one if its sister companies in the U.K.

I have very hard time understanding UK - dominions - empire relations, but I don't think this is right either.
I'm not absolutely sure of that, but I vaguely remind that from 1946 onwards Avro Canada was pretty independant from its U.K counterpart. It was property of the Canadian government.

In the end I don't believe an Arrow ever got away. What may possible is that an Iroquois actually found its way to England after the cancellation, but God know when and in what context.

(and to conclude, I'm a die hard fan of the Arrow, which was an absolutely superb achievement. Cancellation of the project was a sad end to an incredible technological odyssey)

 

[aam641]

Avro Canada was wholly British-owned since its creation shortly after WWII. At the time when the Arrow was cancelled the top guy at Avro Canada was Sir Roy Dobson in London, England. Since Avro Canada was part of Hawker Siddeley it is not unexpected that Avro Canada property would be transferred to one if its sister companies in the U.K.

This is not possible. The Arrow project was a cost-plus contract. Therefore all planes and parts were property of the Canadian government. Any transfer without DND's approval would have been outright theft.