Aurora - a Famous Speculative Project

I also wanted to chime in regarding the models: GORGEOUS work! My hats off to you.
And lovely variation on the XR-7 - looks like you could take it for a spin right now.

:)
 
Gorgeous models. When I first saw them, I wasn't sure if they were glue and plastic models, or computer generated. I think it's the monochromatic background and hard shadows.
 
shockonlip said:
I admire your work, and also loved your 'production' B-70A !!

...The YF-12A turned out excellent, and I for one would love to see a few more close-up shots of this one, including a six-view. It's one of the few times I've seen a YF-12A painted anywhere near accurately; you'd be shocked to see how many modelers wind up using a Blackbird painting scheme instead of what I've come to call the "RCC & Gun Metal" layout.
 
OM said:
shockonlip said:
I admire your work, and also loved your 'production' B-70A !!

...The YF-12A turned out excellent, and I for one would love to see a few more close-up shots of this one, including a six-view. It's one of the few times I've seen a YF-12A painted anywhere near accurately; you'd be shocked to see how many modelers wind up using a Blackbird painting scheme instead of what I've come to call the "RCC & Gun Metal" layout.

But then wasn't the "RCC & Gun Metal" scheme, as you call it, rather used on the A-12 series only? I seem to recall pics of the YF-12A being painted all-black alright.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
OM said:
shockonlip said:
I admire your work, and also loved your 'production' B-70A !!

...The YF-12A turned out excellent, and I for one would love to see a few more close-up shots of this one, including a six-view. It's one of the few times I've seen a YF-12A painted anywhere near accurately; you'd be shocked to see how many modelers wind up using a Blackbird painting scheme instead of what I've come to call the "RCC & Gun Metal" layout.

But then wasn't the "RCC & Gun Metal" scheme, as you call it, rather used on the A-12 series only? I seem to recall pics of the YF-12A being painted all-black alright.

...Didn't say there weren't any YF's painted all-black. The majority of the A-12 series were the "RCC & Gun Metal" motif, however. What I'm *not* sure about are the OXCART original variants. The pics I've seen of the first one to leak all over the flight line was bare metal, but I haven't seen pics of the others in the series to confirm/deny the bare metal motif was standard for OXCART. Someone here'll obviously point me to it shortly, no doubt snarking "duh, I found it on thet thar searchy engine!"
 
Couple of thoughts...

Despite all the confusion about what may or may not have been canceled, it's important to keep in mind that something is going on at Groom. There are still a dozen or more Janet flights a day, and a number of ongoing expansion projects. The Red Eagles program is ongoing, and the existence of several Radar Cross Section ranges indicates that there are stealth related flight test projects going on.

I know / know of someone in San Diego who is working on PDE hardware. He's gotten ahold of a former navy torpedo retriever (one with quite a history), and is building a hybrid PDE / Tesla Turbine / electric propulsion system for it. The system is set up to burn 90% hydrogen peroxide and waste motor oil. Currently he's got the turbine portion of it running and is working to integrate the PDE. I mention this because it's one of only two projects I'm aware of with working PDE hardware. His website is at http://www.seabirdadventure.com. (full disclosure: I am in no way associated with his project, I just think it's one of the most revolutionary propulsion concepts to come along in a while.)
 
cthippo said:
Couple of thoughts...

Despite all the confusion about what may or may not have been canceled, it's important to keep in mind that something is going on at Groom. There are still a dozen or more Janet flights a day, and a number of ongoing expansion projects. The Red Eagles program is ongoing, and the existence of several Radar Cross Section ranges indicates that there are stealth related flight test projects going on.

RED EAGLES is definitely over. RED HATS, on the other hand, is very much ongoing. These are two very different, but complimentary programs.
There are many things going on all over the ranges, but the infrastructure projects are not necessarily indicative of expansion or support for specific programs.
 
cthippo said:
Couple of thoughts...
...
I know / know of someone ... who is working on PDE hardware.
...

As far as automobiles are concerned, I like this variant of PDE, or wave engine,
called a Shock Wave Engine. There is a book on designing this engine, and it even
is setup (per the cover icture) for driving something like a flywheel.

http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Engine-Design-Helmut-Weber/dp/0471597244/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297124875&sr=1-1#_

Caution though.

To understand this book, you're going to need some aerodynamics background,
as well as determination to get through it. I suggest John D. Anderson's: "Modern
Compressible Flow", specificaly the section on unsteady flow and shock tubes,
and the method of characteristics for such flow as well.

This motor is basically a series of shock tubes wrapped around the edge of a disk.
The disk is like a turbine wheel, but instead of impulse or reactine turbine blades, you
have shock tubes around the disk.
 
cthippo said:
Stargazer2006 said:

Of course they are, they got the technology from the Roswell crash! ;D

...Or from the Kecksburg Acorn/Zenit crash, which the Air Farce has kept under tighter wraps than Roswell not because they found a realer-life UFO, but because they'd have to admit they violated a number of treaty agreements with the Soviets regarding the return of recovered space vehicles.
 
OM said:
...Or from the Kecksburg Acorn/Zenit crash, which the Air Farce has kept under tighter wraps than Roswell not because they found a realer-life UFO, but because they'd have to admit they violated a number of treaty agreements with the Soviets regarding the return of recovered space vehicles.

Except for the fact that NASA demonstrated in 2003 that orbital mechanics made it physically impossible for Cosmos 96 to have hit Pennsylvania on 9 December 1965.
 
I don't know if the following has anything to do with the Aurora saga, but the NTRS recently made available a 1978 report into studies for a long range Mach 2.6 aircraft. It seems to have been a fighter, but as the pictures show, some of the study versions look like the classic 'flying triangle'

See: Trade Studies relating to a long range mach 2.6 supercruiser

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790007735_1979007735.pdf
 

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I guess it's appearance at NTRS is somehow related to Orionblamblam humble efforts;)
 
flateric said:
I guess it's appearance at NTRS is somehow related to Orionblamblam humble efforts;)

Maybe, but the one time I asked the NTRS about it, they said they just uploaded whatever they wanted from the old files.
 
Graham1973 said:
flateric said:
I guess it's appearance at NTRS is somehow related to Orionblamblam humble efforts;)

Maybe, but the one time I asked the NTRS about it, they said they just uploaded whatever they wanted from the old files.

I believe there is a fairly large effort to rid the libraries of paper and digitize collections these days. That and in the past year there was another round of declassification effort which went through gov't agencies.
 
mr_london_247 said:
....While the hypersonic "Aurora" is not a reality, sources and independent
evidence suggest that the AF may indeed operate secret aircraft unfamiliar
to the general public.

The Pentagon revealed the existence of one of these aircraft in a synopsis
of a classified Inspector General audit released last year. The IG is
required to summarize audits that it isn't permitted to publish.

The audit, labeled simply "Report No. 92-110 - Top Secret," was ordered
"to determine if the Program was responsive to contingency requirements
and to evaluate the overall management of the peacetime program."

The synopsis described "the Program" as needing "improvements ... in
procedures for transitioning from peacetime (to wartime) operations and for
approving peacetime reconnaissance flights." In addition, it said that
"the Air Force budget for one aircraft type was overstated by $14.4
million for the six-year period ending in FY 1997."

Pressed repeatedly to explain this secret aircraft, since it would, at
first glance, suggest an "Aurora," a Pentagon official would only advise
the questioner to "think lower-tech."
....

In the distant past I could never find any further references to this report and was therefore sceptical of it... However: the titles of such DoD IG Reports are now visible online and '92-110' is among them (http://www.dodig.mil/pubs/report_summary.cfm?id=4189). So I asked DoD IG if there was indeed an 'Unclassified Summary', and this is their response:

"We're sorry, but there is no unclassified summary for that report. The report is Top Secret/SCI, and the group that has custody of it said that the declassify date is OADR, which means "Originating Agency's Determination Required." Our Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Office would have to coordinate with the agency that was covered by the report in order to perform a declassification review. Someone in our FOIA office is in the process of getting an SCI clearance, but at the moment, nobody there has the clearance required to look at the report. They recommend that you wait a few months and then submit a FOIA request."....
 
Mr London thats a nice slice of information for us to wonder over.

So there is a secret recce airframe and its still classified heavily. Wow!
 
mr_london_247 said:
The synopsis described "the Program" as needing "improvements ... in
procedures for transitioning from peacetime (to wartime) operations and for
approving peacetime reconnaissance flights." In addition, it said that
"the Air Force budget for one aircraft type was overstated by $14.4
million for the six-year period ending in FY 1997."

I have to check, but I'm fairly certain that given the language, the report content, and time period, this was the Air Force Special Platform - the U-2.
 
Ian33 said:
....So there is a secret recce airframe and its still classified heavily. Wow!

As quellish implies, this is more likely something rather more mundane (despite the secrecy), however still of interest perhaps!: I'd still like to know more about the AF Special [U2] for one.

I mainly found it interesting that a small snippet of (questionable) info from so many years back *may* actually corelate to something else for once....
 
mr_london_247 said:
Ian33 said:
....So there is a secret recce airframe and its still classified heavily. Wow!

As quellish implies, this is more likely something rather more mundane (despite the secrecy), however still of interest perhaps!: I'd still like to know more about the AF Special [U2] for one.

I mainly found it interesting that a small snippet of (questionable) info from so many years back *may* actually corelate to something else for once....

http://homepage.mac.com/quellish/bd2/aircraft/afsp/
 
mr_london_247 said:
quellish said:
http://homepage.mac.com/quellish/bd2/aircraft/afsp/

Yep - read it. I mean more than that.

This may also be of interest regarding AFSP, though minor:
www.covenantsec.com/resources/CSS_Flyer.pdf
I've seen it referred to as Air Force Special Platform and just Air Force Special interchangably, but *only* in the context of those SIGINT programs (ASIP, JSAF, etc.). Air Force Special may be a customer (NSA) term, and that may be driving the obscure secrecy. This is in turn related to:
http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports/fy00/00059sum.htm
Senior Year Program Office primarily controls U-2 activity, though I have also seen many indications that SYPO is now a larger program office that manages a wider array of.... things. The document you're looking for would fall into the period described by the audit, where SYPO was transitioning out of special access required.

If you include a copy of that audit with your request for the document, that may be helpful in driving its release. Can't hurt.
 
I just had a thought. 'Aurora' appeared on the 'document' above the TR-1. I woner if that was the name for the specialised U2s? I'd laugh till my sides burst if it was.

They are after all strategic recon airframes. Please ignore me if im talking uninformed gibberish.
 
An improved U-2 (however important the improvement) wouldn't explain the astronomical budget allocated to Aurora at the time I think...
 
:-\

I shall ask to be forgiven. I just found the idea in my brain and didn't really think to enquire about the monetary values being excessive for new built or especially adapted airframes.

I'll go back to reading and leave the thinking to others.
 
Ian33 said:
:-\

I shall ask to be forgiven. I just found the idea in my brain and didn't really think to enquire about the monetary values being excessive for new built or especially adapted airframes.

I'll go back to reading and leave the thinking to others.

Not to worry. I'm no specialist either. You expressed an opinion, I expressed another one... We both need the input of the REAL experts here to validate or invalidate our speculations!
 
quellish said:
This may also be of interest regarding AFSP, though minor:
www.covenantsec.com/resources/CSS_Flyer.pdf

When I've looked previously: your page (first & best ref still), this, then a couple of ref's to simply "AF Special" in PE's (like http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2000/AirForce/0305206f.pdf) are the only things I've seen before.

92' seems too early to be AFSP to me though?
 
mr_london_247 said:
quellish said:
This may also be of interest regarding AFSP, though minor:
www.covenantsec.com/resources/CSS_Flyer.pdf

When I've looked previously: your page (first & best ref still), this, then a couple of ref's to simply "AF Special" in PE's (like http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2000/AirForce/0305206f.pdf) are the only things I've seen before.

92' seems too early to be AFSP to me though?

92-93 is, I think, when I first saw it used. Around the time that DARO was starting up, and the various airborne recon programs were being shuffled around. I'm not sure if JSAF started around that time, but it would not surprise me, especially if JSAF was managed by DARO. That would explain a lot about the etymology of "AF Special Platform".
 
aliensporebomb said:
I also wanted to chime in regarding the models: GORGEOUS work! My hats off to you.

Likewise. And Telford's really not too far from Cosford.

The dart would look good behind a KC-135, flanked by oooh, hmm, maybe a couple of Aardvarks? :D
 
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

Place ~ HABU Main Base 9th SRW, Strategic Air Command (SAC), transferred to Air Combat Command (ACC).

Feb, 1990.

The deactivation of the SR-71 program sparked many rumors about it's replacement. Anyone who worked their knew, their reasoning could not fathom getting rid of the the best and most amazing aircraft to reign Queen of the Stratosphere. The Blackbird was getting better and more capable as the days past. Her titanium structure was stronger than new. New and powerful sensor packages were being developed. Procedures for fitting her by-pass doors were being refined and detailed. She could fly faster and better than ever.

As the program closed down, supply reps hurriedly swept in to confiscate all the related SR-71 support equipment. The maintenance folks curious by the haste.

ACC was taking command, changes abound, new rules, and regulations.

Then one evening around the afternoon shift change, the red phone from maintenance control rang. The super, says this is a real world, not an exercise, get everyone inside the building, close the doors, stay away from the windows. Anyone caught outside or peering out the doors or windows will be court marshaled.

The sun was setting, the evening dusk was setting in. While we finished checking in the tools, all of the sudden, we were startled with huge booming explosions, one~ boom, two~ boom, 3~ boom,boom,boom.

In my 10 years at the base I never experienced that before. And I must say many strange things did happen there when compared to my other duty stations. We just looked at each other with amazement. A short while later the red phone rang again and the super gave us the all clear.

As we were leaving the duty section, some of the other structural maintenance troops were coming back in. We asked them, did you hear those explosions? They said Yes, we did. We were out near the flightline, when they told us to get inside some large tents that had been set up. We said it sounded really load, and they responded. You should have heard it out there!

Later that evening, I arrived at my home in the foothills, about 30 miles directly north of the bases runway. I told the wife, I was going to relax a while in the hot tub out on our back deck.

I laid there floating on my back looking up at the stars in the clear evening sky, when a small flash to the south sparked my attention rising over the tops of the tall tress. I turned my head and stared intensely at this small bright white light. It passed directly over me heading straight northward. It consistently gained momentum accelerating beyond what I could imagine. (I'm use to launching Habu's)

The object seemed to be a small craft with one intense very short afterburner flame, but as it moved forward, it appeared that the tiny craft was glowing white hot. It continued to accelerate directly toward the north, and kept gaining speed and altitude until it disappeared over the horizon into space. It made no sound.

I could only describe it as watching a meteor or falling star descending into the atmosphere, but ~~~ it was going up.

The weeks following, news reports, about tremblers and rumblings abound.
 
Dark Eagle said:
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

And the source for this "rumor" would be?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 
Lauge said:
Dark Eagle said:
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

And the source for this "rumor" would be?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

The May 11, 1992 Aviation Week article "New Evidence Bolsters Reports of Secret, High-Speed Aircraft" reported the February activity at Beale, including explosions/detonations on the 26th (of 1992).
 
During that time in the program you didn't ask. Doing so would be a good way to be having an interview with the OSI and loose your SEI rating.

Not all, if not most of the activities that happened at the base were reported. I waited until now, I figure 21 years was long enough.
It's interesting to see that other people had similar experiences. Wow!
 
I don`t know the truth about Aurora, but I guess that some people that have read this topic know the reality, yet they can`t speak of it. And those who don`t speak of it are preserving ...their paychecks, nothing else. let`s try to evaluate a bit the profitability factors of program secrecy. if a program is funded in excess of billions yet, it can`t reach its objectives, it is usually cancelled, thus the funding is stopped. A failure of a white program can`t be hidden, for too many people would know the failure. Thus a white program must really work, and can`t be covered that easily. Now imagine that you have a secret program, you give it a very narrowed down clearance passage well above Q, on a need to know basis. This leads the whole program in supervision of a bunch of people. If the program is funded in billions what would stop bribing those people that have access to this program in order to supervise it? Unfortunately the secrecy of programs allows the huge funds to be used for bribing and faking program validity, and demand even more funding , from year to year. It was already quiet suspicious that a multibillion program aircraft from MDD A-12 after cancellation found place in a scrapyard. it looks more like hiding the lack of engineering input and funds wasted. The same goes to blueprints of lunar Rover, LEM, etc. Any large engineering program is a valuable pool of expanded expertize in the field, and would be very unlikely erased without evidence or data collection. Thus legislation of any country should guarantee that any secrecy of any program doesn`t lead to control of funding within a few people, which allows bribery to take place. The proof of concept validity should be out in white world, in order to block `expertize per buck` ratio to be faked and hidden. As to Aurora, I guess it could be a scale demonstrator as well, or a rocket, not necessarily a full scale Mach-gazillion airframe. it could as well be that many insiders `paycheck- keepers` are inserting false flag dezinfo to create toxic assets, in order to justify huge funding. I really wish I was wrong, but my belief is always based on comparable engineering expertize, which is any country is capable in engineering as complex is their most difficult domestically built engineering feat + 20-25% accumulated expertize. Outsourcing of more and more complex systems abroad is an evidence of engineering decay, which is in opposition to an alleged supercomplexity of hidden programs. period.
 
Dark Eagle said:
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

Place ~ HABU Main Base 9th SRW, Strategic Air Command (SAC), transferred to Air Combat Command (ACC).

Feb, 1990.
...

Interesting that no location was mentioned. Sounds suspicious.
So this would have been at Beale, I would imagine.
Right after the SR-71 was retired, near the end of Jan. 1990.
So if this really happened, more witnesses should be available.
I'm skeptical, as I've been to Beale and the public can drive right
up there. So if such an incident happened, I'd imaging plenty of
US civilians saw/heard evidence of it too.

Of course they flew D-21B's hanging off a B-52H out of Beale in
broad daylight, but not too many people cared to notice back then
and there was always the Houndog Missile plausible cover story
if anyone noticed.

So if someone really cares, it would be an interesting post-mortem.

Just a thought.
 
Lauge said:
Dark Eagle said:
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

And the source for this "rumor" would be?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

Some of the witnesses were named in the articles at the time.

I talked to some of them.

But the point is to make those things real now by actually designing
and building those kind of airplanes !

Regards !
 
Dark Eagle said:
It is interesting to see how those rumors develop. This one about the Aurora or what ever you prefer to call it, was a good one. From my perspective it was based on real experiences of unknown origin.

Place ~ HABU Main Base 9th SRW, Strategic Air Command (SAC), transferred to Air Combat Command (ACC).

Feb, 1990.

<snip>

As the program closed down, supply reps hurriedly swept in to confiscate all the related SR-71 support equipment. The maintenance folks curious by the haste.

ACC was taking command, changes abound, new rules, and regulations.

Then one evening around the afternoon shift change, the red phone from maintenance control rang. The super, says this is a real world, not an exercise, get everyone inside the building, close the doors, stay away from the windows. Anyone caught outside or peering out the doors or windows will be court marshaled.

The sun was setting, the evening dusk was setting in. While we finished checking in the tools, all of the sudden, we were startled with huge booming explosions, one~ boom, two~ boom, 3~ boom,boom,boom.

In my 10 years at the base I never experienced that before. <snip>

Later that evening, I arrived at my home in the foothills, about 30 miles directly north of the bases runway. I told the wife, I was going to relax a while in the hot tub out on our back deck.

I laid there floating on my back looking up at the stars in the clear evening sky, when a small flash to the south sparked my attention rising over the tops of the tall tress. I turned my head and stared intensely at this small bright white light. It passed directly over me heading straight northward. It consistently gained momentum accelerating beyond what I could imagine. (I'm use to launching Habu's)
<snip>
I could only describe it as watching a meteor or falling star descending into the atmosphere, but ~~~ it was going up.

The weeks following, news reports, about tremblers and rumblings abound.


A couple of thoughts:

On the first part, the haste might be to capture reusable specialized stuff before it got lost into the inventory or disposed of. Some when to the U-2 program and a lot got stored down in Southern Calif., which is why the mid-09s reaction went so smoothly. Also, since USAF leadership didn't like the SR-71 (another topic) and it was now controversial Official Policy that there was no need for the SR's capabilities yet it remained an immensely newsworthy item, normal Gov't action would be to get rid of as much of it as possible as fast as possible--out of sight, out of mind.

On the booms. maybe they were destroying something in the general area (like the burn area) they didn't want too many people to witness for whatever reason. The way Beale is laid out, if it was an aircraft departing during the day, there would be too many people to hide it from (what if the guard at the main gate happened to be looking that way?).

For the last, it sounds like a meteor. A meteor entering the atmosphere at a tangent to the Earth's surface at the point of observation would appear pretty much as you describe, especially if one was looking up with no background (except the sky) to give perspective.

FWIW
 

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