Alternative fighter for Argentine AF & Navy during Falklands war.

[Archibald]

Yep, but A-7 don't fit on 25 de Mayo. A-4 yes, S.E barely but A-7 ? forget it. Also no Exocet capability, no idea if Harpoon is feasible on foreign A-7s by 1982, I very much doubt it.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Another tantalizing possibility. As i understand the IFR capable F1C-200 was delivered as early as 1977. If that is the case then this ATL argentinian F1EAR or CAR air defence variant can also be delivered with IFR. So the situation would be even worse for the SH.

Btw, pretty sure the iraqis had the Super-530F operational as early as 1981, certainly in 1982. Argentina doesn't need many though, a few dozen missiles are enough.

Lancer21
from wiki
"The 79 aircraft of the next production run were delivered during the period March 1977 to December 1983. These were of the Mirage F1C-200 version, which featured a fixed refuelling probe, which required an extension of the fuselage by 7 cm."
So I dont think so the F-1C200 will we avaible for us. They star to equip the Armee del Air.
"The SAAF proceeded to procure 16 Mirage F1CZs and 32 Mirage F1AZs, which were quickly delivered by Dassault prior to the embargo being implemented, the first of these deliveries occurring in 1975".
As far i understand, the only F-1 with AAR, was the F-1A

"Mirage F1A

Single-seat ground-attack fighter aircraft, with limited daylight-only air-to-air capability. Fitted with lightweight EMD AIDA 2 ranging radar instead of Cyrano IV of other variants, with laser rangefinder under nose, retractible refuelling probe and more fuel."

• Mirage F1AD : Mirage F1A for Libya. 16 delivered 1978–1979.
• Mirage F1AZ : F1A for South Africa. 32 delivered 1975–1976

So perhaps, the Dagger could be replace for F-1A
In Air to Air role with M-550 (no better than the M-IIIE or Dagger with Shafir
I think in the image below, its no a M-550 is the South african copy


But in that case, we need B707 tanker.
The Kc-130 refuel it

 

[1635yankee]

Yep, but A-7 don't fit on 25 de Mayo. A-4 yes, S.E barely but A-7 ? forget it. Also no Exocet capability, no idea if Harpoon is feasible on foreign A-7s by 1982, I very much doubt it.

Adding antiship missiles to the A-7 (or A-4) is probably a straightforward integration. As for Argentina's carrier, that lasts until an RN submarine finds it.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

One can imagine what they could have achieved with better equipment.

I think that with a good margin of fuel and an adequate time on zone, they would have done a lot of damage.
The Mirage III/5 was a very good aircraft, and the Magics missile was reasonably efficient.
Only the lack of fuel made Mirage easy prey for the Shar.

F.L.
I always think -in what if scenario- real (from the budget side)
Reemplace the M5 Dagger (equal number 1 to 1 with more A-4 (you choose. Ex B or D-2N) or F-100D ( old yes but with more range / AAR and more load) and perhaps Canberras B MK62 by S-2 or even S1 (again more range and AAR)
And of course 1 or 2 KC-130
No M-IIIE insted F-8
In my FAA (what if)
No Dagger
Equal number of
View attachment 701820
or
View attachment 701819

No M-IIIE
this
View attachment 701821

And why not
(I love the Buccaneer -the S-2-)
but i put the S1 because it was the less power version.
View attachment 701818
And 1 or 2 another KC-130
So we can refuel more planes
The F-100D refuel from KC-97, so I think the can do from a C-130. The same was from the F-8.
I dont know about the S1/S2.
This is all about the weapons systems. Not change about training or armaments in selft
But this a big what if.

Interesting scenario. Would the americans sell Argentina all that stuff?

In my scenario i mostly stick with the french option, so i do have a question. The IA58 Pucara program must have cost a lot of money, but any rough idea how much? And how many Mirages could be bought with that money?

I have read that Argentina was initially planning to have a fleet of 100 Mirages. I also understand they felt the need for a COIN aircraft, hence the IA58.

But instead of the IA58, if they bought say 36 or so OV-10 or AT-37s for COIN operations, and money is left over for more/better Mirages, then that is a net increase of capability no?

So how about this, in the early seventies they increase the buy of Mirage IIIEAs to 20-24. Then in the late seventies they buy 20-24 Mirage F1EAR for air defence with Super-530F missiles, and say 30-36 Mirage F1AR IFR capable attackers instead of the Daggers. And perhaps a handful more KC-130, or more/modified buddy-buddy refueling pods to use for the Mirages too.

So while there is an overall slight numerical decrease, there is a much increase combat capability, and the capability to put more aircraft over Malvinas for longer (due to longer ranged/refuelled Mirages). And we also have the ATL air combat scenario in which the SH FRS1 are faced with BVR capable Mirage F1s, and frankly i think the Sea Harriers won't be able to cope with such an opponent (if the F1 is used smartly, as in stay fast, lob Super-530Fs whenever possible, follow on with Magics if opportunity arises, but DON'T get into a turning fight)

Lancer21
I choose that plane for one reason
The can refuel from KC-130

If a F-100D can refuel from a Kc-97,

They can do from kC130.

 

[Desertfox]

The Argentinians didn't need better/different planes, they needed more/better weapons, give them the original order of 30 Exocet and working bombs and its a whole new ball game.

 

[F.L.]

The Argentinians didn't need better/different planes, they needed more/better weapons, give them the original order of 30 Exocet and working bombs and its a whole new ball game.

It's very true.

Otherwise, I believe that the main thing to consider is not primarily what type of aircraft would have been best suited to this situation, but what type of aircraft would have been possible to buy from a political point of view.
Unfortunately, politics dominated the course of aviation history.

 

[H_K]

The Argentinians didn't need better/different planes, they needed more/better weapons, give them the original order of 30 Exocet and working bombs and its a whole new ball game.

Agree. That said, as this discussion shows some F-8 Crusaders or Mirage F1s (especially IFR capable ones) could have made a meaningful difference in their ability to gain air superiority and cut their losses to Sea Harriers.

+ Buddy refueling capability to make up for the tanker shortfall

+ Ideally a low-altitude interceptor / strike aircraft with short runway capability that could operate from Port Stanley airfield (the F-8 being ideally suited for this. Alternatively some Etendard IVMs as a better-than-nothing option)

 

[lancer21]

One last thought on the IFR Mirage options, when did Peru received their IFR capable Mirage-5P3? Just to make an idea of the timescale.
Also, could the KC-130 not refuel IFR capable Mirage F1 or 5, and if so, why not? Both the Mirage types as well as the american aircraft mentioned above, F-8 and F-100 are probe-equipped.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

One last thought on the IFR Mirage options, when did Peru received their IFR capable Mirage-5P3? Just to make an idea of the timescale.
Also, could the KC-130 not refuel IFR capable Mirage F1 or 5, and if so, why not? Both the Mirage types as well as the american aircraft mentioned above, F-8 and F-100 are probe-equipped.

Lancer
Peru refuels his Mirage 5P and 2000 with a B707


The M-5P arrived in late 1960
But a frist was witout IFR

 

[Archibald]

As absurd as it seems, putting an IFR probe on Mirage III was not easy, same for Mirage V. Things started to change when the F1 kind of introduced an IFR probe on what was a Mirage V radome, in the mid-1970's. But it took a few more years for Mirage 50s to get it from the begining, and even more time to get older Mirage III retrofited with a probe (shoulder-mounted, above the intake).
It was a long and protracted process.

On paper at least, as soon as the Mirage F1 has an IFR probe, the Mirage V with a mostly similar pointy nose should be feasible.

 

[F.L.]

Peru refuels his Mirage 5P and 2000 with a B707
View attachment 701951

Not Mirage 5P, but Mirage 2000DP.

 

[F.L.]

Also, could the KC-130 not refuel IFR capable Mirage F1 or 5, and if so, why not ? Both the Mirage types as well as the american aircraft mentioned above, F-8 and F-100 are probe-equipped.

The Libyans tried it and it was a success.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Tb1yt310o

 

[F.L.]

Ideally a low-altitude interceptor / strike aircraft with short runway capability that could operate from Port Stanley airfield.

MiG-21 !!!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx5mBNkSjHU
And F-5.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQgg7k13ZSE

 

[Archibald]

Also, could the KC-130 not refuel IFR capable Mirage F1 or 5, and if so, why not ? Both the Mirage types as well as the american aircraft mentioned above, F-8 and F-100 are probe-equipped.

The Libyans tried it and it was a success.

With the C-135FRs overburdened and with only 11 left (1 went down with its crew at Moruroa in June 1972) France boosted its aerial refueling capabilities with a few Transalls. I have no idea if tactical fighters like Mirages could refuel from a Transall: I'll check.

 

[Archibald]

Well they did it ! Never realized that before, but Jaguars and Mirage F1s did refuel from Transalls.

FAQ de fr.rec.aviation

BANGUI 19XX | 11 ème Escadre de chasse

Précédemment, je vous ai proposé des récits de missions au cours desquelles il se passait quelque chose de "spécial". Aujourd'hui le colonel (à l'époque) MORVAN nous raconte une mission type effectuée à partir du territoire de Centre Afrique et qui est représentative de la grande majorité des...

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Hercules are a touch faster with more power than Transalls (as found the bitter way by German pilots over Afghanistan in winter 2001: Transall with only two Tynes, was underpowered), so it can certainly be done. Well USMC Skyhawks and Hornets, probably did it from KC-130s. Wonder is USMC Phantoms ever refueled from KC-130s ?

Thinking about it, while Mirage F1 was expressly designed as a STOL fighter, so probably no problem trailing a Transall... Jaguar, particularly over Africa, must have been hair-raising. Not only French Jaguars with Adour mk.102 remained underpowered their entire lives; but Africa hot climate, plus a rather dumb issue with the Jaguar. The way the IFR probe was designed, when deployed it screwed the air flow into the engine air intake, so asymmetrical thrust not helping the pilot. Modular reheat (inherited from the doomed Jaguar M) helped.
I knew that IFR / airflow interaction already made Jaguars aerial refuelings a little tricky... trailing a C-135FR. But a much slower Transall ? yowza. Needs a steely-nerves pilot.
Then again, French Jaguar pilots send to Africa between 1977 and 1987 were no "pussies".

 

[Hood]

The way the IFR probe was designed, when deployed it screwed the air flow into the engine air intake, so asymmetrical thrust not helping the pilot

Breguet tried fixed and a retractable probes, but all of them were inline with the intakes. The Royal Aircraft Establishment did point this out but I guess there was no other workable geometry so that feature stayed. I guess they figured as it was retractable it was only an issue while tanking.

 

[F.L.]

The way the IFR probe was designed, when deployed it screwed the air flow into the engine air intake, so asymmetrical thrust not helping the pilot

Breguet tried fixed and a retractable probes, but all of them were inline with the intakes. The Royal Aircraft Establishment did point this out but I guess there was no other workable geometry so that feature stayed. I guess they figured as it was retractable it was only an issue while tanking.

Why didn't the single-seater Jaguars have a refuelling probe similar to the two-seater ?
Edited : Probably because of the instruments in the nose.

 

[F.L.]

The Ecuadorian air force ordered its Jaguars from Great Britain in 1974 and received them in 1977.
Perhaps Argentina could have bought Jaguars instead of Daggers ? Perhaps even from France ?

 

[Archibald]

The way the IFR probe was designed, when deployed it screwed the air flow into the engine air intake, so asymmetrical thrust not helping the pilot

Breguet tried fixed and a retractable probes, but all of them were inline with the intakes. The Royal Aircraft Establishment did point this out but I guess there was no other workable geometry so that feature stayed. I guess they figured as it was retractable it was only an issue while tanking.

Why didn't the single-seater Jaguars have a refuelling probe similar to the two-seater ?
Edited : Probably because of the instruments in the nose.

French Jaguars had much less avionics than the British ones, and the two-seat variant had even less, that is... almost none. So yes, there was room in the nose for a refueling probe.

 

[Archibald]

The Ecuadorian air force ordered its Jaguars from Great Britain in 1974 and received them in 1977.
Perhaps Argentina could have bought Jaguars instead of Daggers ? Perhaps even from France ?

Didn't Ecuador got Mirage F1 too ? Or maybe it was another South American country... never quite realized South America had so much french types. They got the full and entire collection of Mirage IIIs, plus a few more "exotic" types - Jaguar, S.E, F1 and 2000. Later Kfir, plus of course Argentina second hand israeli Mirages and Neshers.

 

[phantomphan]

Later Kfir, plus of course Argentina second hand israeli Mirages and Neshers.

Bit off topic, but Ecuador also operates some Atlas Cheetah C and Ds to round out the tally

 

[F.L.]

The Ecuadorian air force ordered its Jaguars from Great Britain in 1974 and received them in 1977.
Perhaps Argentina could have bought Jaguars instead of Daggers ? Perhaps even from France ?

Didn't Ecuador got Mirage F1 too ? Or maybe it was another South American country... never quite realized South America had so much french types. They got the full and entire collection of Mirage IIIs, plus a few more "exotic" types - Jaguar, S.E, F1 and 2000. Later Kfir, plus of course Argentina second hand israeli Mirages and Neshers.

Ecuador got Mirage F1, Jaguar Kfir, Strikemaster, Cheetah, A-37B, modernised Kfir etc, etc...


The history of aviation in Latin America is passionate and very exotic !

 

[F.L.]

- What type of fighters could have been acquired ?

What about Scimitars bought in the 60s/70s ? To operate on the 25 de Mayo ?
In the role of fighter and ground attack ?

 

[Saturn_I]

What about Scimitars bought in the 60s/70s ? To operate on the 25 de Mayo ?
In the role of fighter and ground attack ?

I don't think they would have fit in the elevator. It had a size of 13.7 x 10.4 mts, the Super Etendard fit barely. In the late 60s, the Navy wanted to buy A-1s and Etendard IVs from the French to replace the Corsairs and F9F Panthers, but they refused and instead offered T-28s

 

[Saturn_I]

The Ecuadorian air force ordered its Jaguars from Great Britain in 1974 and received them in 1977.
Perhaps Argentina could have bought Jaguars instead of Daggers ? Perhaps even from France ?

How much did a Jaguar cost? The AF bought the Daggers because they were cheap and had the same engine as the Mirage III. As they had many flight hours left, there was a plan (the Finger project) to upgrade them to Kfir C2 level (minus engine and canards). In fact, one Dagger was being converted to Finger I when the conflict began

 

[Archibald]

Scimitar was a bastard to fly, and not sure it fits on Colossus / Majestic carriers... it was big and heavy.

 

[F.L.]

I don't think they would have fit in the elevator. It had a size of 13.7 x 10.4 mts, the Super Etendard fit barely.

The Scimitars wings could be folded in all angles (nose, wings) to fit into the elevators.

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In the late 60s, the Navy wanted to buy A-1s and Etendard IVs from the French to replace the Corsairs and F9F Panthers, but they refused and instead offered T-28s.

I'd never heard of that before, it's really interesting, what's your source ?
Otherwise, A-1 Skyraider ?

 

[Saturn_I]

The Scimitars wings could be folded in all angles (nose, wings) to fit into the elevators.

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That's interesting, I didn't know that. Well, maybe it could have fit in the elevators, but I don't know if the catapult would have been powerful enough. Either way, I don't think the Navy ever considered any British carrier-based aircraft (save for the SH in the 70s), but I may be mistaken.

I'd never heard of that before, it's really interesting, what's your source ?

A monograph titled Dassault Super Etendard, Serie Aeronaval #22 by Jorge F. Núñez Padin. I have the ones from 2006 and last year, but the 1993 version is available in the Web Archive.

Otherwise, A-1 Skyraider ?

Yes, specifically the AD-4. The Navy asked for 16 Skyraiders and 16 Etendard, this happened in 1967. They had always wanted the Skyraider, but the US Navy never approved the sale. The story only ended in 1972 when the Navy got the A-4Q.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Also, could the KC-130 not refuel IFR capable Mirage F1 or 5, and if so, why not ? Both the Mirage types as well as the american aircraft mentioned above, F-8 and F-100 are probe-equipped.

The Libyans tried it and it was a success.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Tb1yt310o

They refueling on IL-78
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/probe-and-drogue-story-of-libyas-ill.html

https://theaviationist.com/2013/08/26/laraf-aar-trials/

 

[alejandrogrossi]

What about Scimitars bought in the 60s/70s ? To operate on the 25 de Mayo ?
In the role of fighter and ground attack ?

I don't think they would have fit in the elevator. It had a size of 13.7 x 10.4 mts, the Super Etendard fit barely. In the late 60s, the Navy wanted to buy A-1s and Etendard IVs from the French to replace the Corsairs and F9F Panthers, but they refused and instead offered T-28s

Exactly
A SUE on the foward lift on the ARa 25 de Mayo

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The way the IFR probe was designed, when deployed it screwed the air flow into the engine air intake, so asymmetrical thrust not helping the pilot

Breguet tried fixed and a retractable probes, but all of them were inline with the intakes. The Royal Aircraft Establishment did point this out but I guess there was no other workable geometry so that feature stayed. I guess they figured as it was retractable it was only an issue while tanking.

Why didn't the single-seater Jaguars have a refuelling probe similar to the two-seater ?
Edited : Probably because of the instruments in the nose.

French Jaguars had much less avionics than the British ones, and the two-seat variant had even less, that is... almost none. So yes, there was room in the nose for a refueling probe.

Thiis a Jaguar A from the armee del air
foldin IFR

E

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The Ecuadorian air force ordered its Jaguars from Great Britain in 1974 and received them in 1977.
Perhaps Argentina could have bought Jaguars instead of Daggers ? Perhaps even from France ?

Didn't Ecuador got Mirage F1 too ? Or maybe it was another South American country... never quite realized South America had so much french types. They got the full and entire collection of Mirage IIIs, plus a few more "exotic" types - Jaguar, S.E, F1 and 2000. Later Kfir, plus of course Argentina second hand israeli Mirages and Neshers.

Archibal
The Dagger was the IAI Nesher.
We never bought Mirage from Israel, I said Mirage, not copy of Miarge V
"Wiki: Israel Aircraft Industries Nesher was the Israeli version of the French Dassault Mirage 5 multirole fighte"
We bought 10 Mirage -5P from Perú
The arrive on the moorning of June 5 of 1982, but we never use in the war.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

- What type of fighters could have been acquired ?

What about Scimitars bought in the 60s/70s ? To operate on the 25 de Mayo ?
In the role of fighter and ground attack ?
View attachment 702053

From
"MDD A-4Q&A-4E Shkyhawk" bokk from Jorge f. Nuñez. serie aeronaval 24 (only in spanish)
Ita said:In 1968 the naval aviation study the possibility of the Sea Visxen FAW.1 and the Harrier Gr.1. the in May 1970 we recive the ofer of 16 A-4B call "Q" by the Navy.
Looking this photo

I think the info was a political move to exercise presion, because I dont know if that bird can fix on the CV lift

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Sorry that I ansewer in diferent posts.
I arrive at the office at 6 PM, and I saw so many post.

 

[H_K]

The Navy asked for 16 Skyraiders and 16 Etendard, this happened in 1967. They had always wanted the Skyraider, but the US Navy never approved the sale. The story only ended in 1972 when the Navy got the A-4Q.

I don’t think Etendard IVMs would have worked for operations off 25 de Mayo (the Etendard IVB with Avon engine & blown flaps was required for operations off Colossus class carriers - offered to both the RAN and Indian Navy for HMAS Melbourne and INS Vikrant but ultimately did not come to fruition).

That said a very interesting what-if is if the COAN had bought those 16 Etendard IVMs in 1967 followed by A-4Qs in 1972… the Etendards would have been perfect for land-based anti-ship strikes from the mainland with AS-30 missiles as well as a fighter detachment at Port Stanley.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

The Navy asked for 16 Skyraiders and 16 Etendard, this happened in 1967. They had always wanted the Skyraider, but the US Navy never approved the sale. The story only ended in 1972 when the Navy got the A-4Q.

I don’t think Etendard IVMs would have worked for operations off 25 de Mayo (the Etendard IVB with Avon engine & blown flaps was required for operations off Colossus class carriers - offered to both the RAN and Indian Navy for HMAS Melbourne and INS Vikrant but ultimately did not come to fruition).

That said a very interesting what-if is if the COAN had bought those 16 Etendard IVMs in 1967 followed by A-4Qs in 1972… the Etendards would have been perfect for land-based anti-ship strikes from the mainland with AS-30 missiles as well as a fighter detachment at Port Stanley.

I don think that the Etendart, could reach the Islands with the AS-30


The missile use the inner pylon, so 1 missile an 1 drop tank, max.

for fighter in Puerto Argetino/ Port stanley, yes
This is a IVP, but thay have the same configuration

 

[F.L.]

The Dagger was the IAI Nesher.

We never bought Mirage from Israel, I said Mirage, not copy of Mirage V
"Wiki: Israel Aircraft Industries Nesher was the Israeli version of the French Dassault Mirage 5 multirole fighter.

Dagger is effectively the export name for the Nesher. So, in fact, the Argentinians didn't get any "Mirage" from Israel.
But the Nesher is not a copy of the Mirage 5J; they were secretly produced in France and Belgium and delivered to Israel.

Actually…. in January 1968, Rockwell International made a deal with Dassault for another batch of Mirage 5Js to be delivered to Israel. To better cover-up the story, fuselages were made by Aerospatiale, wings by Reims-Cessna, while engines were manufactured by SABCA, a Belgian subsidiary of Dassault.

The True Story Behind Israeli Nesher Fighter, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell (and Not by IAI) - The Aviation Geek Club

The True Story Behind Israeli Nesher Fighter, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell (and Not by Israeli Aircraft Industries, IAI)

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[F.L.]

The Libyans tried it and it was a success.

They refueling on IL-78
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/08/probe-and-drogue-story-of-libyas-ill.html
https://theaviationist.com/2013/08/26/laraf-aar-trials/

According to this book, the Libyans had already conducted tests with C-130s, and then, because the MiG-23s were unable to refuel on them, it was decided to use Il-78s as well.

MiG-23 Flogger in the Middle East: Mikoyan I Gurevich MiG-23 in Service in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya and Syria, 1973-2018

By Tom Cooper Terminus ‘MiG-23’, perhaps even ‘Flogger’, is likely to appear at least ‘common’ to many of readers. Yes, that’s that arrow-like design from a stable of well-known, Soviet-made fighte…

helionbooks.wordpress.com

 

[Archibald]

The Navy asked for 16 Skyraiders and 16 Etendard, this happened in 1967. They had always wanted the Skyraider, but the US Navy never approved the sale.

If you wonder about French Skyraiders - it wasn't the Navy's Aéronavale: which had Corsairs, Hellcats and Bearcats in Indochina, but no Skyraider.
The Skyraiders were used for COIN by the Armée de l'Air in Algeria, 1960-1962. After the end of that war they remained in service almost 15 more years (!) until the mid-1970's.
They were the first aircraft based in Djibouti, in fact the base there is named according to a Skyraider pilot who died in the late 1960's.
Between 1962 and 1977 (Algeria & Operation Lamentin Jaguars) officially the AdA wasn't at war in Africa. Unofficially, French Skyraiders were at war as early as 1968, in Tchad and elsewhere. Including Djibouti. Much like the Jaguar thereafter , the Skyraider found itself an extensive COIN career in post-decoloniation Africa.
Some Skyraiders ended their career in Cameroon... in the early 1980's ! Just in time to became Warbirds at La Ferté and elsewhere.

 

[H_K]

I don’t think that the Etendard could reach the Islands with the AS-30

The missile use the inner pylon, so 1 missile an 1 drop tank, max

You are correct, the Etendards would need buddy refueling or bigger tanks from Super Etendards (1,100L), A-4s (1,135L) or Mirage IIIs (1,300L). Not completely implausible… in fact bigger tanks (1,500L from memory) were tested during the Etendard IVM’s early catapult trials.

I have some pilots manual info on the Etendard IVM’s fuel consumption and can run the numbers.