MiG-21MF/bis vs Sea Harriers ?

  • Sea Harriers would have complete air superiority.

  • Sea Harriers would have had some losses.

  • Sea Harriers would have been blasted out of the sky.

  • None of the two aircraft would have gained air superiority.


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Given Chinas economy is on the ropes in the long term the US did win.

Or alternatively you could say that this is an extremely thin premise to link the Falklands with 40 years of economic swings and roundabouts.
let me explain you my main thesis.
from Mexico to Argentina there was an empire named the Spanish Empire.
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All modern nations that are called Latin america once were part of this empire even Brazil.
The 1982 war is not a war without History, the USA was the main British Colony.

The 4 main empires that existed in the Americas fought for territories, the 1982 war is the same..

It is not the those AIM-9L were given to the British as a good gesture and preserve peace.

Argentina miscalculated history, first Chile due to the fact the Spanish empire did not control the Patagonia well, Chile and Argentina in the 1970 were fighting a dispute that comes since their independence.

The British tried to attack the Exocet base with Commandos with the help of Chile.
Bolivia and Peru fought Chile in the 1800s so why do you think Peru offered Mirages and even exocets to Argentina? just good will?

Peru sided with Argentina because of that war, Chile sided with England due to the fact Argentina had border disputes.

The French gave the codes of the Exocet because they wanted to sell their weapons, and war was a good publicity. Argentine Historians say this was a disgruntled worker of aeroespatiale, yes that was to cover the main reason: sales.

If you do not go back in history is impossible to make alternative history



Now Brazil is our cousins, because Portuguese and Spanish were the same language 1000 years ago and during a period Spain and Portugal joined Brazil with basically South america under the same crown.

The 1982 has consequences and results and without seeing that you can not understand alternative History.

And sorry, in Latin America we have other version of the events, but the only way Argentina would had beaten England was going nuclear, but that was going to be a very big problem, and if you mean weaponry the only possible way to defeat the Harriers was adapt Soviet missiles to the Mirage and A-4s and perhaps get Tu-16s.

But was crazy so well peace was at the end better
 
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The US restricted the sale of it's US derived engine, unlike the Drakken which had a British Avon and the British don't do as much export restricting.
At the time of the election of M-III, the F-100 with the Drakken was one the option. F-100 discarded because too old. i dont remember the razon aboy the Drakken.
But again, I think not enough fuel to reach the islands, from the main land.
 
What's that got to do with "the codes"?
France promised England that the Argentine Exocet were not going to be able to be fired so the Etendard could not be used, the reality Argentina was beating England, the Atlantic conveyor was an aircraft carrier

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The French obviously were kind of neutral no more deliveries but let the Exocets Argentina used give some advertising for the Exocet

1737585522238.png

Let us say they did not want Argentina to win but they wanted sales
 
France promised England that the Argentine Exocet were not going to be able to be fired so the Etendard could not be used, the reality Argentina was beating England, the Atlantic conveyor was an aircraft carrier

View attachment 757090

View attachment 757092
The French obviously were kind of neutral no more deliveries but let the Exocets Argentina used give some advertising for the Exocet

View attachment 757091

Let us say they did not want Argentina to win but they wanted sales

OK, you appear to have a unique view of the geopolitics of the war.

IIUC France had delivered 5 Super Etendards and 5 AM39 Exocets by April 1982, but the integration of aircraft and missile had not occurred when France embargoed Argentina at the start of the war and withdrew their technicians. However, these aircraft and missiles were still in Argentina's possession and France couldn't do anything about that, so Argentine technicians integrated the aircraft and missiles successfully without factory help.

Atlantic Conveyer was not an aircraft carrier, it was an aircraft transport that due to the unique VTOL capability of the Harrier was able to transfer these aircraft to the actual aircraft carriers without having to transfer them via a nearby airfield. In any case the French didn't know anything about the Atlantic Conveyer because they declared their support for Britain before it was TUFT. Further, the SE and Exocets were in Argentina's possession and the French had no control over how they were used apart from their control over the supply chain for further deliveries of spares and tech support.
 
OK, you appear to have a unique view of the geopolitics of the war.

IIUC France had delivered 5 Super Etendards and 5 AM39 Exocets by April 1982, but the integration of aircraft and missile had not occurred when France embargoed Argentina at the start of the war and withdrew their technicians. However, these aircraft and missiles were still in Argentina's possession and France couldn't do anything about that, so Argentine technicians integrated the aircraft and missiles successfully without factory help.

Atlantic Conveyer was not an aircraft carrier, it was an aircraft transport that due to the unique VTOL capability of the Harrier was able to transfer these aircraft to the actual aircraft carriers without having to transfer them via a nearby airfield. In any case the French didn't know anything about the Atlantic Conveyer because they declared their support for Britain before it was TUFT. Further, the SE and Exocets were in Argentina's possession and the French had no control over how they were used apart from their control over the supply chain for further deliveries of spares and tech support.
Is not my view, it is what the Argentine Historians say I can give you the links if you want but they are in Argentine Spanish.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d67qYFO1-wo

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-MPTraAIo&t=1380s



When Argentina took the Falklands in 1982, France suspended the delivery of weapons sold to the South American country; but some of the weapons had already been delivered; however, to launch the Exocet A 39 missiles, certain codes were required that the European country refused to deliver at the request of its ally, the United Kingdom. But this story would have a surprising twist.

Synonym of of Carrier= Transport
1737587863607.png
See they could be carried and they did take off from it
1737587886855.png


video
 
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When Argentina took the Falklands in 1982, France suspended the delivery of weapons sold to the South American country; but some of the weapons had already been delivered; however, to launch the Exocet A 39 missiles, certain codes were required that the European country refused to deliver at the request of its ally, the United Kingdom. But this story would have a surprising twist.

What was required was the integration of the missiles with the aircraft, not any 'codes'.

The missiles could be used by Super Etendards, Mirage F1s, Super Frelon helicopters and whatever else, so the missiles had to mated up with the particular aircraft that was going to fire them, in this case the Super Etendard. This was to be done by French technicians, but they were withdrawn early in the war, so Argentine technicians did this work successfully with no help.

This is not a complex course of events, there's not too much to read into.
 
What was required was the integration of the missiles with the aircraft, not any 'codes'.

The missiles could be used by Super Etendards, Mirage F1s, Super Frelon helicopters and whatever else, so the missiles had to mated up with the particular aircraft that was going to fire them, in this case the Super Etendard. This was to be done by French technicians, but they were withdrawn early in the war, so Argentine technicians did this work successfully with no help.

This is not a complex course of events, there's not too much to read into.
Remember this is not my opinion, that is what they say the Argentine historians, you can accept it or not that is okay, but those are people who have written books and are Historians, is not me, is their opinion based upon Argentine foreign relations and military people.
 
Remember this is not my opinion, that is what they say the Argentine historians, you can accept it or not that is okay, but those are people who have written books and are Historians, is not me, is their opinion based upon Argentine foreign relations and military people.

Sure, but historians are people too and have their own biases and conclusions that they hammer or cherry-pick the facts to fit into.

Argentine historians claim that HMS Invincible was hit in an attack and there is a giant coverup surrounding it, despite there being no actual evidence for this at all, open acknowledgment of many other ship sinkings and that there are literally thousands of witnesses for such an event.
 
Sure, but historians are people too and have their own biases and conclusions that they hammer or cherry-pick the facts to fit into.

Argentine historians claim that HMS Invincible was hit in an attack and there is a giant coverup surrounding it, despite there being no actual evidence for this at all, open acknowledgment of many other ship sinkings and that there are literally thousands of witnesses for such an event.
Of course, no one denies that, as a person you can try to understand what did happen, however the fact they attacked the Atlantic conveyor and sunk it, meat they were at least trying to defeat the aircraft carriers, the Atlantic conveyor was no a proper aircraft carrier, but could it carry them and aircraft took off from it.

They used an Exocet against the Atlantic conveyor, so it is probable they tried attack the Invincible, did they hit it? well I do not know, but be honest any one with some intelligence knows the best AAM missile against a Sea Harrier is sunk its aircraft carrier.

If they did it, I guess they tried, did the sink it? I do not think so, but very likely they tried because they went for the Conveyor and the best target for the last Exocet was a carrier.

But at least for me the AAM was not the most important weapon to defeat a Harrier, it was air to anti ship missiles.

Argentina should had developed a bigger version of the Martin Pescador and adapt it to A-4s and Condor missiles fired from Etendard, but that was perhaps out of their capabilities at that time.

1737593484754.png

And we discuss some of them. On May 1st, the FAA (Argentine Air Force) officially celebrates its baptism of fire in Malvinas, and on the 4th, the COAN (Naval Air Command) does so, the day it attacked and destroyed the HMS Sheffield with two Exocets (one hit and the other lost its course and fell into the sea). The historical reality is that the two weapons entered combat for the first time much earlier, on June 16, 1955 in Plaza de Mayo and against unarmed Argentine civilians. That is nothing to celebrate.

We could praise the combat valor shown by our aviators from May 1st to June 14th, 1982, noting that they flew airplanes designed in the 1950s, second- and even third-hand, mostly devoid of radar, devices that used old gravity bombs from World War II as their main anti-ship weapon. And to add that they attacked a force defended by successive curtains of Harriers armed with that almost infallible missile, the Sidewinder 9L, which shot down 20 Argentine planes, and to reach the fleet cores, with aircraft carriers and logistic ships, they still had to pierce more and more layers of long, medium and short distance anti-aircraft missile and tube artillery, and that almost half of our attack pilots died in doing so. But all that has already been said by others, and better. Even more, it was said by the British.

As Argentines, we find no reason to celebrate in having had to compensate with courage what was lacking in technology. We could add that CITEFA (Center for Research and Development of the Armed Forces), in anticipation of a possible war with Chile, had been testing since the 1960s a radio-guided anti-ship missile, the Martín Pescador, similar to the American Bullpup. The “Martín” was considerably less capable in range, payload and guidance than an Exocet… But it was national. We could have had not 5, but hundreds.

Tested in more than 60 shots, it was abandoned first by the FAA, which “withdrew” from the project arguing that attacking ships was an exclusive matter for the Navy (!!), and then by the latter, which considered that its range was insufficient. According to the CITEFA website, an inter-forces organization, it hit at 17 kms, which in 1982 made it fearsome. However, according to Commander Carlos Castro Fox, undisputed hero of naval aviation and the man who tested it the most, it was only 6 kms, which made it ineffective for attacking heavily armed ships. The fact is that the “Martín” was not in the Malvinas and we went to war with only 5 surprising Exocets. But it is no coincidence that the one who managed to make them work was Pérez. Partly thanks to his many years of experience in Kingfisher research and development at CITEFA


https://agendarweb.com.ar/2019/05/25/malvinas-un-25-de-mayo-para-perez/
 
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Martin Pedascor (and Bullpup and AS-30) had Manual Command to Line Of Sight (MCLOS) guidance and 6km range. This means that in and around the Amphibious Area of Operations in San Carlos and the northern end of Falkland Sound, where there are hills 2000-3000' high, aircraft would have to fly at medium altitude to get line of sight on the target ships and approach to within 6km.

This would make them dead meat. Every radar would be able to detect them, Sea Harriers would be directed onto them, Sea Dart would be able to shoot them and short range SAMs and guns would be able to engage them.
 
Martin Pedascor (and Bullpup and AS-30) had Manual Command to Line Of Sight (MCLOS) guidance and 6km range. This means that in and around the Amphibious Area of Operations in San Carlos and the northern end of Falkland Sound, where there are hills 2000-3000' high, aircraft would have to fly at medium altitude to get line of sight on the target ships and approach to within 6km.

This would make them dead meat. Every radar would be able to detect them, Sea Harriers would be directed onto them, Sea Dart would be able to shoot them and short range SAMs and guns would be able to engage them.
that is what the article says, but I guess that is better than the way they were attacking with dumb bombs

1737601397976.png
 
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France promised England that the Argentine Exocet were not going to be able to be fired so the Etendard could not be used, the reality Argentina was beating England, the Atlantic conveyor was an aircraft carrier

View attachment 757090

View attachment 757092
The French obviously were kind of neutral no more deliveries but let the Exocets Argentina used give some advertising for the Exocet

View attachment 757091

Let us say they did not want Argentina to win but they wanted sales
Note all these aircraft sealed up in plastic bags.

As noted previously, the helicopters were laoded in Britain. The Sea Harriers and Harriers were flown out to Ascension. They were then flown aboard Atlantic Conveyor and wrapped in plastic to protect them from the salt spray on the journey south, except for one Sea Harrier which was kept on standby in case any Argentinian recce plane turned up and needed warned off. It wasn't needed. Beyond that one aircraft AC was in no condition to operate aircraft. She was merely acting as a transport.

The top photo was taken shortly after AC arrived in Falkland waters on 18 May. At that point the Sea Harriers and Harrrier GR.3 were unwrapped and flown to Hermes and Invincible that day and the next. As you can see the landing pad is clear and a couple of Sea Harriers have been unwrapped and are being prepared for the short flight to the aircraft carriers.
 
Is not my view, it is what the Argentine Historians say I can give you the links if you want but they are in Argentine Spanish.


When Argentina took the Falklands in 1982, France suspended the delivery of weapons sold to the South American country; but some of the weapons had already been delivered; however, to launch the Exocet A 39 missiles, certain codes were required that the European country refused to deliver at the request of its ally, the United Kingdom. But this story would have a surprising twist.

Synonym of of Carrier= Transport
View attachment 757098
See they could be carried and they did take off from it
View attachment 757100


video
The bottom photo is of SS Atlantic Causeway, the sister ship of Atlantic Conveyor. She was fitted out differently from AC, being given a covered area right forward to shelter some of the helicopters she carried which is clearly visible in the photo. She embarked 8 Sea King HAS.2A of 825 squadron and 20 Wessex HU.5 of 847 squadron on 13 May 1982 for transport to the Falklands where they were disembarked ashore between 29 May and mid-June. No doubt a handful were used to for ship to ship replenishment transfers when she was at Ascension and then after she arrived in Falklands waters. But her main role was as a transport with her holds full of other supplies.
 
For the best version of the story about the Argentinian Super Etendards I would recommend "Handbrake! Dassault Super Etendard Fighter-Bombers in the Falklands / Malvinas War" by a pair of Argentinian historians, Mariano Sciaroni & Alejandro Amendolara.

The French team who were to be responsible for integrating the Exocet with the SE arrived in Argentina in early April 1982. One of them had worked on the electronics on 25 de Mayo before the French embargo kicked in. The Argentinian squadron had all the necessary electronics, test equipment, manuals and everything else they needed. What they lacked was the detailed knowledge to make it all work. SE 3-A-202 was set up in the hangar to be the trial aircraft. Maybe the issue about "codes" is connected to a statement by Cabo Banegas:-

"The test set was connected to the navigation unit, which had little windows with wheels where, as you moved them, numbers would appear as if they were on a padlock. They were combinations and that was what we had to find out."

The Argentinian technicians only made slow progress with this task. Then they got a helping hand.

France declared an arms embargo on 6 April. On the 7th a British military attache in Paris was assured that the French technicians would not be assisting the Argentinians. So officially the French team in Argentina should have done nothing more even though they had not been called home (post-war this was stated to have been for "commercial reasons"). Apparently none of the French personnel could subsequently remember receiving such instructions! On 9 April however three of the French team, Colin (from Dassault-Bregeut), Guiminot (Thomson-CSF) and Larrieu (SAGEM) volunteered to work on the aircraft and missiles.

One of the problems that existed was that the Argentinian SE had been equipped with a SAGEM ULISS 80 inertial control unit. This was an updated syetem designed for the Argentinian SE, devoid of US components that were embargoed. And this was stuff that even the 3 French technicians were unfamiliar with. Many hours were spent working from, and understanding, the manuals to be able to get everything up and running. The authors note:-

"Although there were some rumours of a disgruntled French techniciaan who had sent the Argentine mission in Paris some of the codes needed to launch the missiles, this is only half true. Indeed, in early April, a middle-aged man presented himself to the Argentine officers of the Purchasing Sub-Commission in France, where Captain Lavezzo was still working. He said that he worked for Aerospatiale and, as he had been unfairly dismissed, he wanted to take revenge by giving the Argentinians information related to the armament set-up on the Super-Etendard. The information was found on loose sheets of paper in a suitcase.."
The information was smuggled out of France by an Aerolineas Argentinas pilot and reached Espora a short while later.

"However it was useful only for the purpose of dropping bombs from the aircraft and therefore had no influence on the events of the conflict"

By the afternoon of 11 April the French / Argentinian team had 4 aircraft ready to attack using Exocet. The fifth aircraft was retained as a hangar queen, to be stripped of parts as necessary to keep the others flying for the duration of the French embargo.

The capabilities of the Exocet missile were well known to the Royal Navy as they had been using it for several years, so they already had tactics worked out to combat it. In particular they knew an Exocet carrying aircraft would have to pop up twice on approach to use its radar to identify the target and provide the necessary navigation data to the missile INS before launch. The missile itself then had to activate its own radar at a pre-programmed distance to home on the target. This provided opportunities to detect the incoming attack and missile. And the generation of Exocet used by Argentina could not distinguish between a chaff cloud and a hard target, something the RN would exploit during the campaign. That and minimising the target size by presenting the bow or stern of the ship directly towards the incoming missile.

Exocet also had a "home-on-jam" ECCM capability if any attempt was made to jam its radar. Again this was exploited by the RN. A number of Lynx HAS.2 helicopters were fitted with jammers removed from Canberras and deployed south. It was known as the "I-Band Jammer" during the war and later "Hampton Mayfair". It was old kit and its outdated valve electronics took a while to heat up to become effective. Flights of one or two Lynx were deployed on Hermes and Invincible. One such Lynx had been deployed to Atlantic Conveyor on 20 May just after she arrived in Falklands waters. Unfortunately she was unable to launch it in time on 25th May and it was destroyed as she burned. The idea was that the missile would home on the poor Lynx and its crew to act as a decoy. Not something the crews were very happy about.

For all the fear that Exocet generated, it is worthwhile looking at its record in the Falklands. Of the 5 AM-39 air launched Exocets available to the Argentinians, 2 were launched at Sheffield on 4 May. One hit while the other fell into the water near her, presumably having run out of fuel.

On 25th May two Exocets hit the Atlantic Conveyor, a vessel less well protected than the carriers. I found this analysis of the attack on her online, which helps to explain what went wrong from the British side. As can be seen the Hermes was the carrier at greatest risk that day.

The final attack on 30th May saw the mixed formation attack from the south. This missile failed to find a target, probably being decoyed by a chaff cloud until it ran out of fuel and crashed harmlessly into the sea. Other unsuccessful Exocet sorties were flown, aircraft returning to base with their missiles.

In all three cases the SE employed aerial refuelling from C-130s to extend their range.

The only other Exocet attack was on the destroyer Glamorgan on 12 June. Two MM-38 missile fired from an improvised ground based launcher. Two launched (at the second attempt), one failed to guide and the other hit Glamorgan who was trying to put her stern to the missile. So damage was limited and she was back in action a couple of days later.
 
Note all these aircraft sealed up in plastic bags.

As noted previously, the helicopters were laoded in Britain. The Sea Harriers and Harriers were flown out to Ascension. They were

The Argentinian technicians only made slow progress with this task. Then they got a helping hand.



"Although there were some rumours of a disgruntled French techniciaan who had sent the Argentine mission in Paris some of the codes needed to launch the missiles, this is only half true. Indeed, in early April, a middle-aged man presented himself to the Argentine officers of the Purchasing Sub-Commission in France, where Captain Lavezzo was still working. He said that he worked for Aerospatiale and, as he had been unfairly dismissed, he wanted to take revenge by giving the Argentinians information related to the armament set-up on the Super-Etendard. The information was found on loose sheets of paper in a suitcase.."
The information was smuggled out of France by an Aerolineas Argentinas pilot and reached Espora a short while later.

"However it was useful only for the purpose of dropping bombs from the aircraft and therefore had no influence on the events of the conflict"
let me make a distinction, Hermes or invincible were carriers because to take off fully armed ,the Harriers needed an airstrip and a sky jump platform.
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If you care to check in this video you can see a harrier landing on the Atlantic conveyor

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The Atlantic Conveyor of course was not a proper aircraft carrier since the deck space did not allow it to be a fully combat capable aircraft carrier such as Hermes, but transport and carry are synonyms.



What does it mean? simple there was an attempt to hunt the carriers by Argentina, and the conveyor carried aircraft, Transported aircraft, was a proper carrier? no, it was not a proper fully fledged carrier that is true, but it was hit carrying transporting aircraft, I can say simply it was a transport aircraft carrier civilian ship.

Imaging if Argentina would have had 30-40 Exocets and France did not embargo the Exocets.

The French weapon was good, that is the reality.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-MPTraAIo&t=1380s


Jorge Sáenz, tells the same story about the exocets
 
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In the case where Argentina get 30-40 exocets by April 2 and nothing else changes the failure node will move one up the system chain. These days it is widely believed that the lack of exocets was the key to Argentine defeat, it does seem obvious after all, however in the event Argentina had plenty of exocets they lacked/misused the sea surveillance assets to properly use them.

Argentina had 2 P2 Neptunes, one of which assisted in the sinking of the Sheffield, but a drastic lack of spares caused them to be retired by about May 15. 5 Navy S2 trackers arrived at Port Stanley on 3 April, flew 112 sorties and left on April 14 or thereabouts, so played no part in the actual war.* Once the Neptunes were retired the RN Task Force was located by tracking where Sea Harriers appears and disappeared on radar plus whatever Escuadrón Fénix and C130s could ascertain. I doubt this would be enough to get good results from 30-40 exocets, after all some exocet missions were aborted due to a lack of targets and a lot Air Force missions failed to find targets as well.

*An interesting scenario is the Navy S2s maintain a presence on or through Port Stanley throughout the shooting war. They could conduct sea searches to locate RN ships for Air Force and Navy assets to attack, or even provide useful negative search results for these assets to avoid.
 
In the case where Argentina get 30-40 exocets by April 2 and nothing else changes the failure node will move one up the system chain. These days it is widely believed that the lack of exocets was the key to Argentine defeat, it does seem obvious after all, however in the event Argentina had plenty of exocets they lacked/misused the sea surveillance assets to properly use them.
I agree but with 30-40 Exocets the disembark would had not happened, and still the harriers had a range limit and the super Etendards and A-4s were air refueling capable


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1qy20kbLc


This a simulation, more for amusement rather than analysis, however the scenario mentions a fact, the China factor, the Aircraft carriers are in the pacific and Argentina invades the Island in 2027, I mean do not take it so serious, however they simulate the aircraft carriers are busy in other parts so the UK is unable to recover the Islands.

This is interesting that it mentions a major crisis will make the UK unable to defend the Islands I mean a war in Europe or Asia and that will force economically and militarily the UK will not be able to defend the Islands.

But do not take it so deep and serious is more for fun than deep analysis.

However they Mention Argentina purchasing Su-35s, well it is more fiction that reality so do not take it so seriously
 
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Ahhh, "the codes", I was wondering when that would come up.

What are "the codes", what do they do, who did the French give them to and to what end?
The Exocet missile is autonomous and does not have unidirectional or bidirectional communication.

The issue of codes is a myth...code for what?

The most that could be done was to reveal the missile's radar frequency to try to jam it, which was obviously impossible within the timeframe and at that time...
 
Remember this is not my opinion, that is what they say the Argentine historians, you can accept it or not that is okay, but those are people who have written books and are Historians, is not me, is their opinion based upon Argentine foreign relations and military people.

Friend F14_Tomcat,

This hypothesis does not apply in Brazil.

The premise for the historians you defend is that France would have controlled the quantity and form of deliveries, so that the missile would be merely a showcase without, however, having the capacity to change the course of the war. The truth is that not even the Argentine Air Force knew about the invasion plans in advance, and therefore, neither did the French...it makes no sense at all...the truth is that Argentina carried out the invasion without prior plans and therefore, without even prior logistical deployment, whether of material or acquisitions, in order to strengthen its own resources...there is no way for the French to know in advance before Argentina itself...it delivered what was on the schedule and cut off support after the beginning of the conflict, with the Argentine technicians having all the merit for completing the integration autonomously. The mention of "codes" by your historian is therefore a confusion due to lack of technical knowledge and understanding of what was reported to him... not being a missile with directional or bidirectional communication capacity, there are no codes to be opened, the most would be to reveal the missile's "radar frequencies", see the technical difference... on the other hand, when they still insist on not passing codes for Argentina to finish integrating and activating the missile to the planes, as well as the improvised prototype of the land version taken from the ships to fire in the coastal defense of the islands, it is because the Argentine technicians had to discover the activation and integration frequencies and codes for the firing control station... I have read about this... that is... source code for integration and programming of launch coordinates... there was no two-way communication missile at that time.
 
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Remember this is not my opinion, that is what they say the Argentine historians, you can accept it or not that is okay, but those are people who have written books and are Historians, is not me, is their opinion based upon Argentine foreign relations and military people.

Martin Pedascor (and Bullpup and AS-30) had Manual Command to Line Of Sight (MCLOS) guidance and 6km range. This means that in and around the Amphibious Area of Operations in San Carlos and the northern end of Falkland Sound, where there are hills 2000-3000' high, aircraft would have to fly at medium altitude to get line of sight on the target ships and approach to within 6km.

This would make them dead meat. Every radar would be able to detect them, Sea Harriers would be directed onto them, Sea Dart would be able to shoot them and short range SAMs and guns would be able to engage them.
6 km might be insufficient for an oceanic war, but it would be deadly for the coast and especially for the ships that were all in the channel, no more than 3.5 km from each bank, surrounded by the slopes... the fighter would just have to fire as soon as it reached the banks at low height as it was... this way, it would avoid having to pass over the ship and certainly, this would represent several more kills and the possibility of losing much fewer fighters in evasion.
 
I agree but with 30-40 Exocets the disembark would had not happened, and still the harriers had a range limit and the super Etendards and A-4s were air refueling capable


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1qy20kbLc


This a simulation, more for amusement rather than analysis, however the scenario mentions a fact, the China factor, the Aircraft carriers are in the pacific and Argentina invades the Island in 2027, I mean do not take it so serious, however they simulate the aircraft carriers are busy in other parts so the UK is unable to recover the Islands.

This is interesting that it mentions a major crisis will make the UK unable to defend the Islands I mean a war in Europe or Asia and that will force economically and militarily the UK will not be able to defend the Islands.

But do not take it so deep and serious is more for fun than deep analysis.

However they Mention Argentina purchasing Su-35s, well it is more fiction that reality so do not take it so seriously
This is a certainty for me. The day that China fills Argentina with anti-ship weapons and fighter jets will be the day before the invasion of Taiwan... this will obviously happen to divert British resources from any assistance in Asia.
 
The Exocet missile is autonomous and does not have unidirectional or bidirectional communication.

The issue of codes is a myth...code for what?

The most that could be done was to reveal the missile's radar frequency to try to jam it, which was obviously impossible within the timeframe and at that time...
See my post #778
 
Argentina had 2 P2 Neptunes, one of which assisted in the sinking of the Sheffield, but a drastic lack of spares caused them to be retired by about May 15.

Agreed. But...
5 Navy S2 trackers arrived at Port Stanley on 3 April, flew 112 sorties and left on April 14 or thereabouts, so played no part in the actual war.* Once the Neptunes were retired the RN Task Force was located by tracking where Sea Harriers appears and disappeared on radar plus whatever Escuadrón Fénix and C130s could ascertain. I doubt this would be enough to get good results from 30-40 exocets, after all some exocet missions were aborted due to a lack of targets and a lot Air Force missions failed to find targets as well.

*An interesting scenario is the Navy S2s maintain a presence on or through Port Stanley throughout the shooting war. They could conduct sea searches to locate RN ships for Air Force and Navy assets to attack, or even provide useful negative search results for these assets to avoid.
The S-2 Trackers were much more active than you believe. They were equipped not just with radar but also a home developed ESM suite that allowed them to detect RN radars.

There were 6 S-2E on strength but only 5 were operated during the Falklands War. Only 2 were deployed to Port Stanley between 3rd and 13th of April.

There were then deployments on the 25th de Mayo on 28th March, 18th April and 28th April. During these last two deployments 4 Trackers were embarked. From 29 April they began flying maritime surveillance operations from the carrier. From the morning of 30 April they were in contact with the Task Force firstly by ESM and later radar, as well as detecting groups of innocent trawlers fishing in the area. Contact with the TF was maintained until the night of 1/2 May when a Sea Harrier radar was detected and the Tracker dived for the surface and home (one SHAR had been launched to attempt interception and to find the Argentinian carrier - which it did when it switched on its radar and the Argentine lit it up to target it). Next morning the TF couldn't be relocated having been withdrawn East.

As the A-4Q attack from 25th de Mayo on 2 May was cancelled, the carrier group withdrew into national waters. During this phase of operations the Trackers acted in an ASW role in conjunction with the carrier's Sea Kings, using sonobuoys and even dropping a torpedo on a contact to no effect. They flew ashore on 10 May.

From 29 April to 10 May the Trackers flew 44 missions for 188 hours in the air.

Between 13 and 24 May 5 Trackers were sent one by one to Rio Gallegos a nd remained there until 23 June. They began flying maritime surveillance operations on 14th, flying out to explore the waters both north and south of the Falklands, searching for TF ships. The main search tool was the ESM kit, to avoid active radar emissions so far as possible that would have brought down the SHAR CAP on them. Another of their roles was to provide guidance for A-4Q Skyhawk attacks from 21 May, but that doesn't appear to have been too successful. They continued to fly operationally until 14 June, regularly picking up radar and ESM contacts in Falklands waters allowing tracking of British warships.

They flew 107 missions from Rio Gallegos for a total of 528 hours without loss.
 
Nice summary, I knew about the Tracker in the carrier shadow boxing, but not their ongoing role.

Again, down in the squadrons the Argentines knew what they were doing.
 
6 km might be insufficient for an oceanic war, but it would be deadly for the coast and especially for the ships that were all in the channel, no more than 3.5 km from each bank, surrounded by the slopes... the fighter would just have to fire as soon as it reached the banks at low height as it was... this way, it would avoid having to pass over the ship and certainly, this would represent several more kills and the possibility of losing much fewer fighters in evasion.

The missile required line of sight, ships behind hills are immune from low level attack. The attacking plane would need to fly high enough to see over 2-3000' hills at 6km.
 
Friend F14_Tomcat,

This hypothesis does not apply in Brazil.

The premise for the historians you defend is that France would have controlled the quantity and form of deliveries, so that the missile would be merely a showcase without, however, having the capacity to change the course of the war. The truth is that not even the Argentine Air Force knew about the invasion plans in advance, and therefore, neither did the French...it makes no sense at all...the truth is that Argentina carried out the invasion without prior plans and therefore, without even prior logistical deployment, whether of material or acquisitions, in order to strengthen its own resources...there is no way for the French to know in advance before Argentina itself...it delivered what was on the schedule and cut off support after the beginning of the conflict, with the Argentine technicians having all the merit for completing the integration autonomously. The mention of "codes" by your historian is therefore a confusion due to lack of technical knowledge and understanding of what was reported to him... not being a missile with directional or bidirectional communication capacity, there are no codes to be opened, the most would be to reveal the missile's "radar frequencies", see the technical difference... on the other hand, when they still insist on not passing codes for Argentina to finish integrating and activating the missile to the planes, as well as the improvised prototype of the land version taken from the ships to fire in the coastal defense of the islands, it is because the Argentine technicians had to discover the activation and integration frequencies and codes for the firing control station... I have read about this... that is... source code for integration and programming of launch coordinates... there was no two-way communication missile at that time.
Let me tell you an opinion.

History shows that war has 2 elements:

Propaganda and alliances.

Alliances mean that any nation will find out what other nations will do in case of war.

Do you think Argentina knowing France, the USA and England were part of NATO they were not going to see what was going to be the reaction of the USA or France?

https://prensaobrera.com/aniversarios/una-guerra-montada-en-londres-y-washington

Even the theory that Galtineri was crazy do you think The Junta were all low IQ people that would have not considered what the USA was going to do?


The reality is any war require alliances in example the famous Ribbentrop and Molotov pact.

1737845254624.png

Let us read history that is Pinochet and Vernon Walters


If we read history we can understand things better.


Any war start with Politics, the technical aspects were directly related to that.

Why the A-4s did not have AAMs? why the Etendard did have an embargo?

History is far more complex.
 
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The missile required line of sight, ships behind hills are immune from low level attack. The attacking plane would need to fly high enough to see over 2-3000' hills at 6km.
1706237522_490_BOMB-ALLEY.jpg


sancarlosbay3.jpg


11306c434b1246446265878026eb484a.jpg

No.

That's not what I wrote.

What I'm saying is that the planes flew low over the relief of the islands and descended the cliffs, reaching the edge of the canal.

From the edge, there was a 10 to 20 second run until they passed over the ship, dropping their bombs.

The theory is that with the Argentine missile, the fighters could launch the missile as soon as they reached the edge of the canal, in the same flight profile as before, but launching the missile from there and eliminating 10 to 20 seconds of exposure.
 
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1706237522_490_BOMB-ALLEY.jpg


sancarlosbay3.jpg


11306c434b1246446265878026eb484a.jpg

No.

That's not what I wrote.

What I'm saying is that the planes flew low over the relief of the islands and descended the cliffs, reaching the edge of the canal.

From the edge, there was a 10 to 20 second run until they passed over the ship, dropping their bombs.

The theory is that with the Argentine missile, the fighters could launch the missile as soon as they reached the edge of the canal, in the same flight profile as before, but launching the missile from there and eliminating 10 to 20 seconds of exposure.

This thread has shown that the Squadron level they knew what they were doing. They decided not to use the missile due to the nature of the British defences, which suggests that your idea is not practical.
 
Let me tell you an opinion.

History shows that war has 2 elements:

Propaganda and alliances.

Alliances mean that any nation will find out what other nations will do in case of war.

Do you think Argentina knowing France, the USA and England were part of NATO they were not going to see what was going to be the reaction of the USA or France?

https://prensaobrera.com/aniversarios/una-guerra-montada-en-londres-y-washington

Even the theory that Galtineri was crazy do you think The Junta were all low IQ people that would have not considered what the USA was going to do?


The reality is any war require alliances in example the famous Ribbentrop and Molotov pact.

View attachment 757400

Let us read history that is Pinochet and Vernon Walters


If we read history we can understand things better.


Any war start with Politics, the technical aspects were directly related to that.

Why the A-4s did not have AAMs? why the Etendard did have an embargo?

History is far more complex.
No.

I don't think they really considered that Thatcher was also in an election period and needed support... the conflict was a perfect fit for her...

The Argentine improvisation is proof that there was no real war plan... France delivered by the date she could... there is no way to change, circumvent, or pass on codes that don't even exist... the French simply became allies of those who were already their obvious allies... and so, they blocked technical assistance.

The US, England and France fought side by side in many conflicts... there were no surprises either... in reality, American restraint was only to the detriment of not being forced to push Argentina into the arms of the Soviets...

I am not a skeptic... for example, I believe very strongly that the Invincible was hit. I don't believe it sank, but rather that it was hit. The decline in air operations in the chronology reinforces this, as well as the 50-year secrecy decreed by the British regarding the files... including the belief that American aid to the British went well beyond what is known, hence the importance of secrecy...
 
1706237522_490_BOMB-ALLEY.jpg


sancarlosbay3.jpg


11306c434b1246446265878026eb484a.jpg

No.

That's not what I wrote.

What I'm saying is that the planes flew low over the relief of the islands and descended the cliffs, reaching the edge of the canal.

From the edge, there was a 10 to 20 second run until they passed over the ship, dropping their bombs.

The theory is that with the Argentine missile, the fighters could launch the missile as soon as they reached the edge of the canal, in the same flight profile as before, but launching the missile from there and eliminating 10 to 20 seconds of exposure.
In Top Gun maverick, the argentine Pilots said they did the same

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szXQBwmjAOo
 
This thread has shown that the Squadron level they knew what they were doing. They decided not to use the missile due to the nature of the British defences, which suggests that your idea is not practical.
What missile???? My friend, isn't it clear that there was no operational Martin Pescador missile in the Argentine Air Force, ok??

If the Argentines had something, they would use it... but they simply had nothing... nothing... just dumb bombs. Rockets were also ruled out as a possibility because the rocket pod causes a lot of drag. The rocket pod travels with the plane on the way to and from the mission... so, there was no way to use this for planes leaving the continent, ok?
 
No.

I don't think they really considered that Thatcher was also in an election period and needed support... the conflict was a perfect fit for her...

The Argentine improvisation is proof that there was no real war plan... France delivered by the date she could... there is no way to change, circumvent, or pass on codes that don't even exist... the French simply became allies of those who were already their obvious allies... and so, they blocked technical assistance.

The US, England and France fought side by side in many conflicts... there were no surprises either... in reality, American restraint was only to the detriment of not being forced to push Argentina into the arms of the Soviets...

I am not a skeptic... for example, I believe very strongly that the Invincible was hit. I don't believe it sank, but rather that it was hit. The decline in air operations in the chronology reinforces this, as well as the 50-year secrecy decreed by the British regarding the files... including the belief that American aid to the British went well beyond what is known, hence the importance of secrecy...
I will be a bit more detailed.

Argentina like any nation did need to Know what was going to be the reaction of the USA and France.

Any Geopolitical decision depends on that.

I gave you the Molotov Ribbentrop pact as an Example.

Why Hitler wanted to know what Stalin was going to do if Germany Invaded Poland?

Same is applied to the Falkland war, add all nations have espionage, propaganda works to belittle leaders as truly incompetent loons that react passional that is not the case of real life.

Galtieri went to the USA before the war, Argentina was offered a NATO type allainces with Brazil and south africa.

Did Galtieri make a mistake misreading Washington, certainly he did but it was not he, it was a very large part of the Argentine Government.

Real life is far more complex, because politicians and intelligence agencies work together, wars need to see what allied nations and enemy nations will do in case of war.

Argentina failed no doubt in that the USA and NATO were far much smarter than Argentina and the Soviet Union.

But Galtieri was not a communist, was similar to when Turkey invaded Cyprus, two allies who were at war.

What basically I am saying is France and the USA knew Argentina was going to invade, they probably did not know every thing, but definitively NATO knew something was going on.
 
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I will be a bit more detailed.

Argentina like any nation did need to Know what was going to be the reaction of the USA and France.

Any Geopolitical decision depends on that.

I gave you the Molotov Ribbentrop pact as an Example.

Why Hitler wanted to know what Stalin was going to do if Germany Invaded Poland?

Same is applied to the Falkland war, add all nations have espionage, propaganda works to belittle leaders as truly incompetent loons that react passional that is not the case of real life.

Galtieri went to the USA before the war, Argentina was offered a NATO type allainces with Brazil and south africa.

Did Galtieri make a mistake misreading Washington, certainly he did but it was not he, it was a very large part of the Argentine Government.

Real life is far more complex, because politicians and intelligence agencies work together, wars need to see what allied nations and enemy nations will do in case of war.

Argentina failed no doubt in that the USA and NATO were far much smarter than Argentina and the Soviet Union.

But Galtieri was not a communist, was similar to when Turkey invaded Cyprus, two allies who were at war.

What basically I am saying is France and the USA knew Argentina was going to invade, they probably did not know every thing, but definitively NATO knew something was going on.
My friend, understands that you are saying that despite having made a mistake in his assessment, Galtiere and his intelligence group had studied in detail what the likely reaction of the United States would be, right?

But this makes no sense, because the high-ranking Argentine officers did not know about the plans and so it is difficult to believe that Argentina would have studied in detail the reaction of potential allies, but absolutely not studied its own battle and defense plan...

In fact, it was a plan by a group, a small group, only the group that was in power was fiercely attached to it...the professionals in the barracks had nothing to do with it and from then on the officers had to get by and improvise everything as best they could...and they did a lot...
 
My friend, understands that you are saying that despite having made a mistake in his assessment, Galtiere and his intelligence group had studied in detail what the likely reaction of the United States would be, right?

But this makes no sense, because look at the high-ranking Argentine officers who knew about the plans, and so it is hard to believe that Argentina would have studied in detail the reaction of potential allies, but absolutely not studied its own battle and defense plan...

In fact, it was a plan by a group, a small group, only the group that was in power was fiercely attached to it...the professionals in the barracks had nothing to do with it, and from then on the officers had to make do and improvise everything as best they could...and they did a lot...
I understand what you mean and I agree, they did not make a good plan, but definitively their military were professionals, good pilots, so good that they used all the weapons they had, could have they done a better plan and better training definitively I agree, that is history a gamble, we think we planned well and all the things get screwed up.


Same is now what Trump has said about taking by force the Panama canal, his army is professional, but misreading Geopolitics can costing a defeat even to the mighty USA, Galtieri lost the war, but Brazil won the post war, in that is why you see I am pretty aware Brazil is the leader of south America, with very smart foreign relations politics.

In 1982, Brazil outsmarted the USA, Mercorsur is the proof
 
Even the theory that Galtineri was crazy do you think The Junta were all low IQ people that would have not considered what the USA was going to do?
To quote Forrest Gump 'Stupid is as stupid does'. The Falkland invasion - time, method, geopolitical environment - showed the Junta's grasp of reality was deficient. To put it politely.

Intelligent people can do remarkably stupid things, genuinely stupid people would have made less of a mess. I blame the parents.
 
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