Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumph / SA-21 Growler TABM/SAM

[reddawn]

it is about the s-400 radar specifications, we know based on public information that the system is able to a 4 m2 target up to 250 kilometers, thus based on the radar equation it can detect f-35 stealth plane of 0.001 m2 at 31 kilometers?!

in contrast, an Irbis-E radar with a much smaller aperture compared to the s-400 92N6E Gravestone aperture can detect a 1 m2 target up to 283 kilometers, thus based on the radar equation it can detect the f-35 at 50 kilometers.

so how could an Irbis-E aircraft radar with a much smaller radar aperture and much smaller radar power to detect the aircraft much further than the s-400 which have a much bigger radar aperture and more radar power?

 

[stealthflanker]

The easiest answer would be that the measurement is taken on different condition. Probably different threshold settings too.

 

[marauder2048]

From Curry's "Radar Essentials" Chap. 4 "Atmospheric losses"

 

[stealthflanker]

From Curry's "Radar Essentials" Chap. 4 "Atmospheric losses"

View attachment 640638

And how do you think this would be used in Radar range equation ?

 

[reddawn]

there is where I got the information about the two radars

 

[reddawn]

but also even if the information is slightly wrong how could a small diameter radar aperture have more power and range detection in contrast to this huge 92n6e radar?!

and why the Russians can't put a 6 or 8 Irbis-E radar and integrate them together in one radar thus they get more powerful one?! is that possible!! solution and if no then why!?

 

[marauder2048]

From Curry's "Radar Essentials" Chap. 4 "Atmospheric losses"

View attachment 640638

And how do you think this would be used in Radar range equation ?

In the usual place where losses go?

 

[stealthflanker]

In the usual place where losses go?

Yeah but not quite. The way to use the atmospheric loss factor is first you have to have calculate radar range in vacuum, then use the result to calculate the atmospheric loss factor, Then you use that resulted loss factor to calculate the final range estimate. The graphics alone wont be enough.

But anyway, i guess we can make simplification as one in other George M Siours's book "Radar Performance Modelling 2nd Edition"



Since our interest is the loss factor and we have radar reference range of say 400 Km. The equation would look like this

R=Rref*(1/Llens*LWeather)

From the graph you provided the loss for 400 Km range and some 2 Degrees of Elevation is about :

LLens : 0.7 dB
LAtmos : 2.8 dB

So the range with those factors are

R=400*((1/(1.17*1.90))^(1/4))
R=400*0.82
R=327 Km.

So the range "loss" is about 18% for the elevation angle specified. One have to question however at what elevation angle the radar was tested.

OR maybe if Irbis were to put on the ground and use same parameters as above, considering the loss was only 18% in terms of range that still not really answer the question of near
50% differences in range. Or does the S-400 radar simply tested 0 degrees and "look ahead" to the Horizon which dont seems to be practical. But from the graphics does provide over 33% range loss. But then the range against 3 Sqm would be about 267 Km, not 232 Km calculated from the Export brochure.

 

[reddawn]

i want to understand these schemes its about the s-300 radar 19Ж6 " СТ-68У " it was an early version of the system.



what does it mean the radar have 4 beams?!, does every beam work at the same time or one by one !?




why the beam have changing form and length and sometime detection range is lower when it comes to the higher angle beams?!
what affect the radar detection range, the atmospheric loss factor,and does the angle of the steered beam affect the detection range,because the higher angle the less detection range of the beam?!



can someone explain these pictures , i want to figure out how these radars works?!!

 

[stealthflanker]

The main keyword to google here is "Diffraction" from which you can find "Pattern propagation factor". The "lobed" structure of the range-height coverage diagram is the result of that pattern propagation interaction where the radiowaves emitted from the radar interact with the ground and creates the null in coverage.

As for the stacked beam implementation of the ST-68. Well the radar may emit only one beam at a time but from different feeds where each feeds covers different elevation sector.

 

[Grey Havoc]

US senators urge Biden to waive sanctions for India’s S-400 purchase

Two key senators are urging President Joe Biden to waive sanctions against India for its purchase of a Russian S-400 air defense system, saying such a move would throw cold water on the important relationship.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

US senators urge Biden to waive sanctions for India’s S-400 purchase

Two key senators are urging President Joe Biden to waive sanctions against India for its purchase of a Russian S-400 air defense system, saying such a move would throw cold water on the important relationship.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Forest Green]

US senators urge Biden to waive sanctions for India’s S-400 purchase

Two key senators are urging President Joe Biden to waive sanctions against India for its purchase of a Russian S-400 air defense system, saying such a move would throw cold water on the important relationship.

www.defensenews.com

Have to say I agree, there are more important issues at stake in that neck of the woods.

 

[totoro]

It'd be double standards though, if sanctions are waived for one country but not for another.

 

[Forest Green]

It'd be double standards though, if sanctions are waived for one country but not for another.

An S-400 purchase isn't the only issue with the other but that's kind of off-topic.

 

[sferrin]

It'd be double standards though, if sanctions are waived for one country but not for another.

India isn't building F-35s.

 

[tequilashooter]

Russia to start S-400 supplies to India before year ends, state arms seller says

Head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said earlier that work had already begun to arrange S-400 supplies to India

tass.com

DUBAI, November 14. /TASS/. Russia plans to start the supply of the S-400 air defense systems to India before the end of the year, Director General of Russia's Rosoboronexport state arms seller Alexander Mikheyev told TASS on the sidelines of the Duban Airshow 2021.

"The plan is to begin deliveries before the end of 2021 in accordance with the time frame set in the contract," he pointed out.

Head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said earlier that work had already begun to arrange S-400 supplies to India.

India announced plans to purchase the S-400 systems in 2015. Moscow and New Delhi signed a $5.43 bln contract on the delivery of five regiment sets of the S-400 systems during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India in October 2018.

 

[tequilashooter]

By seven partners do they mean seven countries?

Russia in consultations with seven partners on possible S-400 supplies

Russia’s S-400 ‘Triumf’ (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) is the latest long-and medium-range surface-to-air missile system that went into service in 2007

tass.com

DUBAI, November 14. /TASS/. Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms seller (incorporated into the Rostec state corporation) is in consultations with seven partners on possible supplies of S-400 Triumf missile systems, Rosoboronexport Director General Alexander Mikheyev told TASS on Sunday on the sidelines of the Dubai Airshow 2021.

"Rosoboronexport continues consultations with seven Russia’s strategic partners on supplies of high-technology and effective S-400 missile systems," he said, adding that customized approaches are used to each of the partners.

"During the talks, we discuss the scope of supply, equipment, offer additional means to boost the systems’ effectiveness and reliability," he noted.

Russia’s S-400 ‘Triumf’ (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) is the latest long-and medium-range surface-to-air missile system that went into service in 2007. It is designed to destroy aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles, and can also be used against ground installations. The S-400 can engage targets at a distance of up to 400 km and at an altitude of up to 30 km under intensive enemy fire and jamming.



The Dubai Airshow is one of the largest international aerospace shows held once every two years. Russia has been participating since 1993.

 

[SOC]

I would assume they mean seven countries, yes. If I had to guess: Algeria, Belarus, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Vietnam, Venezuela.

 

[tequilashooter]

Russia’s export order book of air defense weapons hits $14 bln

The air defense weapons that enjoy the greatest demand among foreign buyers at present include S-400 ‘Triumf’ anti-aircraft missile system and Tor-M2E surface-to-air missile launcher, Rosoboronexport CEO Alexander Mikheyev revealed

tass.com

DUBAI, November 15. /TASS. Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport estimates its air defense weapon order book at $14 billion, Rosoboronexport CEO Alexander Mikheyev said at the Dubai Airshow 2021 on Monday.

"Rosoboronexport’s air defense weapon order book is estimated at almost $14 billion. It includes surface-to-air missile systems and complexes, radar stations and radar systems, automated control systems, electronic warfare and radio-technical reconnaissance stations and counter-drone systems," the chief executive said.

The air defense weapons that enjoy the greatest demand among foreign buyers at present include S-400 ‘Triumf,’ Antei-2500 and Favorit anti-aircraft missile systems, Buk-M2E, Tor-M2E and Tor-M2K surface-to-air missile launchers, Pantsyr-S1 anti-aircraft missile/gun systems, Sosna, Gibka-S and Pechora-2M surface-to-air missile systems and Igla-S and Verba man-portable air defense weapons, he said.

 

[muttbutt]

In Algeria.

 

[jsport]

Can Pakistan counter India’s new S-400 air defense system?

Overconfidence in its newly acquired S-400 air defense system may give India a false sense of invulnerability and increase the likelihood of a military miscalculation involving archrival Pakistan, analysts warn.

www.defensenews.com

 

[sferrin]

 

[TR1]

40N6E apparently:

 

[Archibald]

"White noize (sic) "

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD_QmLPmIwI

 

[Flyaway]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1547670748197556225

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1547670748197556225

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1547670748197556225

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1547670748197556225

Really? They can't be that crap surely?

I think the problem is that the SAMs cost way more than HIMARS rockets, and war can broadly be thought of as a series of collisions between two objects, where the cheapest object wins as it were. So when you intercept a 227x4000mm rocket with a 500x7500mm SAM with seeker and all, it's really the rocket taking out the SAM.

100% ineffective is a very expansive claim though. Even first gen AIM-7s and SA-2s were not 100% ineffective, hell even AIM-4s weren't.

 

[Saber]

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

 

[spartina]

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

Really. While the soviets ruSSians are the natural masters of maskirovka, I don't think allowing their arms dumps to be blown up at will by the Ukes was part of the plan by their master strategist Putin. 30,000 plus cannon fodder, no problem, but them shells were part of "the plan"....

 

[Saber]

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

Really. While the soviets ruSSians are the natural masters of maskirovka, I don't think allowing their arms dumps to be blown up at will by the Ukes was part of the plan by their master strategist Putin. 30,000 plus cannon fodder, no problem, but them shells were part of "the plan"....

Ok? What does this have to do with S-300 and S-400 manufacturer supposedly being sued? They aren't, it's just war propaganda.

I'm not going to get into discussions with you over HIMAR's effectiveness or Russian casualty rates. You can find someone else for that.

 

[NMaude]

Is there any truth to the reports I've heard that Russia has been using some of its' SA-12/20s and SA-21s as surface-to-surface missiles in Ukraine?

 

[Saber]

Is there any truth to the reports I've heard that Russia has been using some of its' SA-12/20s and SA-21s as surface-to-surface missiles in Ukraine?

No, either misidentified(for guided Smerch rounds) or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets. This happens with both side's AD systems.

 

[NMaude]

or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets.

Haven't something like 40% of Russian missiles being launched in Ukraine been duds?

 

[spartina]

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

Really. While the soviets ruSSians are the natural masters of maskirovka, I don't think allowing their arms dumps to be blown up at will by the Ukes was part of the plan by their master strategist Putin. 30,000 plus cannon fodder, no problem, but them shells were part of "the plan"....

Ok? What does this have to do with S-300 and S-400 manufacturer supposedly being sued? They aren't, it's just war propaganda.

I'm not going to get into discussions with you over HIMAR's effectiveness or Russian casualty rates. You can find someone else for that.

Actually you need to step back and understand who is doing the Suing/Investigating.
Or perhaps English comprehension isn't your strong point...

 

[spartina]

or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets.

Haven't something like 40% of Russian missiles being launched in Ukraine been duds?

Don't know to be honest, before this conflict I would have thought not.
However there does seem to be something not quite right with numerous examples of ruSSian "advanced" weaponry.

 

[Saber]

or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets.

Haven't something like 40% of Russian missiles being launched in Ukraine been duds?

Impossible to independently verify. Ukrainians aren't exactly going to release their own battle damage analysis and evidence to let the Russians know what they hit and how accurately for free. And the Russians certainly won't tell you about munition failure rates in the middle of an invasion.

There's a good reason why a lot of missile strikes in Ukraine have military policing the crowd to not let them take pictures. Why do your enemy's BDA for them for free?

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

Really. While the soviets ruSSians are the natural masters of maskirovka, I don't think allowing their arms dumps to be blown up at will by the Ukes was part of the plan by their master strategist Putin. 30,000 plus cannon fodder, no problem, but them shells were part of "the plan"....

Ok? What does this have to do with S-300 and S-400 manufacturer supposedly being sued? They aren't, it's just war propaganda.

I'm not going to get into discussions with you over HIMAR's effectiveness or Russian casualty rates. You can find someone else for that.

Actually you need to step back and understand who is doing the Suing/Investigating.
Or perhaps English comprehension isn't your strong point...

Step back from what? Understand what? There is no lawsuit from RuMoD to Almaz-Antei, unless you have evidence otherwise.

How hard is it for you to understand that they made it up? It's wartime propaganda against their enemy. They wrote that Shoigu died/was killed/replaced/launched a coup/whatever, or Russian generals and colonels getting killed several times over and lo and behold, they're still alive somewhere and appearing on TV.

or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets.

Haven't something like 40% of Russian missiles being launched in Ukraine been duds?

Don't know to be honest, before this conflict I would have thought not.
However there does seem to be something not quite right with numerous examples of ruSSian "advanced" weaponry.

Yeah, Jesus himself went into the field and collected all the duds and counted them.

 

[TMA1]

It's fake bullshit alongside with Ghost of Kyiv and "four Ukrainian planes fought more than 20 Russian planes off" type shit.

Plenty of Ukrainian MLRS like Smerch and even HIMARS have had wreckage posted claimed to be from intercepts from even SHORADS like Pantsir and Tor, which they have had a history doing since even from Syria.

Claim itself doesn't make sense either, S-300/400 aren't Army systems, and aren't deployed in support of them either.

Really. While the soviets ruSSians are the natural masters of maskirovka, I don't think allowing their arms dumps to be blown up at will by the Ukes was part of the plan by their master strategist Putin. 30,000 plus cannon fodder, no problem, but them shells were part of "the plan"....

Did you see the source in that tweet? This and your reply is the problem with modern osint types. Things are more complex than they appear. Do you notice their rocket attack only lasted a short time and has not repeated to the same degree? They launched a large quantity of soviet origin mlrs rockets with the himars as supposedly they have very similar trajectories. The problem is the saturation tactic worked and the air defense systems couldn't differentiate between rockets and missiles being fired at their targets in time.

There is so much we dont know. The fog of war is very thick and the propaganda on all sides certainly doesn't help. It is the worst I've ever seen it. Things are not good when this much energy is being pushed towards propaganda and misinfo/disinfo on all sides.

 

[TMA1]

or simple confusion when fired missiles crash back down after they've been fired at air targets.

Haven't something like 40% of Russian missiles being launched in Ukraine been duds?

Would be amused to see that source.

And I know what is going to happen to this thread very soon...

 

[flateric]

yep
Gerashchenko as trustworthy as Konashenkov

 

[Forest Green]

Is there any truth to the reports I've heard that Russia has been using some of its' SA-12/20s and SA-21s as surface-to-surface missiles in Ukraine?

I keep hearing this too. Especially in Kherson region.