I could be wrong but if I understand it correctly, isn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?Don't be so sure, an SM-3 has the same booster and reaches 3km/s, which is about Mach 10 at altitude.
I could be wrong but if I understand it correctly, isn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?Don't be so sure, an SM-3 has the same booster and reaches 3km/s, which is about Mach 10 at altitude.
isn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?
I honestly don't know for sureisn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?
I don't know where burnout is but there really isn't much air above 20km.I could be wrong but if I understand it correctly, isn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?
Yes, I remember that. The closing speed was 9.8km/s and, as you say, it definitely wasn't nose-to-nose because the satellite was on a decaying orbit, hence why it was shot down."On February 21, 03:26 GMT an SM-3 missile was fired from the Ticonderoga-class missile cruiser USS Lake Erie and intercepted USA-193 about 133 nautical miles (247 kilometers)[25] above the Pacific Ocean. The satellite was traveling with a velocity of about 17,500 mph (around 28,000 km/h, or 7.8 km/s). The velocity of the impact was about 22,000 mph. "
Flight time was 166 seconds. That gives an AVERAGE vertical velocity component of about Mach 5. The missile contributed 4,500 mph to the combined impact velocity. As it wasn't a nose-to-nose impact the missiles speed at impact was likely much higher.
There is enough for jet engine to operateI don't know where burnout is but there really isn't much air above 20km.
Well yeah, but definitely not enough for you to breath, that limit is about 8km. It's >15x less that at sea level and, as you can see, at 30km it's >100 times less than at sea level, and hence drag is >100x less. So whilst the official line between the atmosphere and space is 100km, it gets very space-like well before that and spy satellites running elliptical orbits have perigees as low as 80km.There is enough for jet engine to operate
I know drag at high altitude is lower due to lower air density. But drag at high speed is exponentially higher than low speed. Drag at Mach 10 is 100 times higher than at Mach 1. So I think drag is still a big factor. In addition, 40N6E and 48N6E2 are a lot bigger than SM-6, so I think it is logical that their booster are more powerful and can propell them to higher speed.Well yeah, but definitely not enough for you to breath, that limit is about 8km. It's >15x less that at sea level and, as you can see, at 30km it's >100 times less than at sea level, and hence drag is >100x less. So whilst the official line between the atmosphere and space is 100km, it gets very space-like well before that and spy satellites running elliptical orbits have perigees as low as 80km.There is enough for jet engine to operate
View attachment 620432The edge of space: Revisiting the Karman Line
In this paper I revisit proposed definitions of the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and outer space, considering orbital and suborbital trajec…www.sciencedirect.com
My point was that the air wasn't a big factor above those altitudes wrt drag. You seem to be making the assumption that air abruptly ends at 100km, when in reality it just tails off via the same curve in the graph above and above 20km there is very little of it. It's possible, even likely that the SM-3 burn stage ends before 100km.I know drag at high altitude is lower due to lower air density. But drag at high speed is exponentially higher than low speed. Drag at Mach 10 is 100 times higher than at Mach 1. So I think drag is still a big factor. In addition, 40N6E and 48N6E2 are a lot bigger than SM-6, so I think it is logical that their booster are more powerful and can propell them to higher speed.
I don't think that, I know air density decrease gradually but as a matter of fact, exoatmosphere missiles are always cited with higher velocity than endoarmosphere missiles. So I think drag is important.My point was that the air wasn't a big factor above those altitudes wrt drag. You seem to be making the assumption that air abruptly ends at 100km.
In addition, 40N6E and 48N6E2 are a lot bigger than SM-6, so I think it is logical that their booster are more powerful and can propell them to higher speed.
The reason exo-atmospheric missiles have more speed is because they need more speed to reach those altitudes and they have to pass through that 100km first.I don't think that, I know air density decrease gradually but as a matter of fact, exoatmosphere missiles are always cited with higher velocity than endoarmosphere missiles. So I think drag is important.
You really don't see oxymoron in that phrase?I honestly don't know for sureisn't SM-3 only reach Mach 10 exoatmosphere?
If you know the answer, it better to just say it rather than talking in crypticYou really don't see oxymoron in that phrase?
Do you have anything new on the radar suites for the S-400 ?
The second is of course general increase of targets that can be tracked.. older S-300P variants can only track six while this S-400 can track up to 40 and engage 10 plus controlling 20 missiles, more than earlier 30N6/5N63. Increase in computing capacity self explanatory. The rest is as you pointed out long time ago the minimum target speed is 0 which means it can somehow track into doppler notch. It may then also engage very slow moving target if necessary. With the only limit being the pulsewidth.
Who cares about Standard. When they make it tube-launched from a TEL and replace the crap the Army's been stuck with for decades, then I'll be impressed
S-400 has 96L6 radar which is installed on 25 meters mast. Helps with radiohorizont quite well. Problem is - official range for that one is 400km.Also, not so related, how does one test radar range against f16 out to 600 km away? Rarad would either have to be a kilometer higher than the plane or a very light f16 would have to be performing a zooming maneuver going vertical for a very short stay up at 20 km altitude.
I dont understand. Nothing in those two texts seems pertinent to the question i posed.
Also, not so related, how does one test radar range against f16 out to 600 km away? Rarad would either have to be a kilometer higher than the plane or a very light f16 would have to be performing a zooming maneuver going vertical for a very short stay up at 20 km altitude.
Anyway, its very hard to get proper sources on s400. Those two articles are again far from being a proper source.
Its weird that both eads and cpmiec (for sampt and fd2000) did publish bRochures where their targeting limits were stated.
Another question, different from the last. Though still has relevance to limits...
Does anyone have a publication/sales brochure/quote from an official (or something to that extent) which discloses the maximum distance (or a least a typical operating distance) the TELs can be placed from the engagement radar in any given battery? I found some pretty official data on Patriot, distance being 30 km, so I'm surprised that the S-400, which has much more data on its export variant out there, seems to have that piece of data hidden and not mentioned anywhere...
Finally, If someone can explain how the sometimes cited figure of 160 missiles guided to 80 targets came to be - I'd like to hear that too. Because that figure doesn't make any sense, as long as we're still talking about 6 fire units limit. 80 divided by 6 radars is 13.3333, so that doesn't add up. If there's been an increase in the number of fire units to 8 or 10 - then sure. But if so, is there's a decent source stating that change occurred? Again, one can read on the internet that some change did occur in 2012, leading to both more units and more guidance channels per radar, but is there a decent source to confirm any of that?
I don't know if that was a reply to my questions, but if it was, I've only got more questions. The link leads to a blog of some sort, which has the usual text on s400. With link to russian edition of wikipedia as source. And then when one does check out the wiki page, 4 more sources are listed. One of those links doesn't work and the three other ones don't seem like official sources at all. And not one of them actually says anything about target limits.
Have you got this brochure ? This is where the numbers came from.
Thanks for that link. I do wish that was rosoboronexport or almaz brochure, because that would've settled it. This way, being produced by Trishul, without stating further sources they used, I can't be sure of its authenticity.
Which also a shame because it does seem to also have some opinion on the datalink range issue as well. There's this page:
And it seems as if there's the answer there somewhere, but with all those different designations of subsystems, i am not sure i'm looking at the right thing. Is it the TCS 31Yu6ME the subsystem i should be looking at? Though that has 6/8 connections. There's 93 Ya6 05 with 12 connections but i'm not sure what that is either. Anyway, it does seem plausible that the 12 launcher option is not necessarily the option that can operate all 12 launchers at great remote distances?
Anyway, all the above would still kind of be a moot point if the data in those brochures can't be linked to something more credible than a Trishul produced document. Sometimes he/they retain the whole document with the margins, so the original source is visible, but in this case there's no margins visible on those scanned papers.
"Up to 10" and "6" are not necessarily conflicting information. If we imagine that the multitarget capability varies from a minimum of 6 to a maximum of 10 (dependent on mode/sector coverage for example) then both figures could be correct at once, with one brochure emphasising the minimum and the other the maximum. In any case, we are talking theoretical limits here.
In fact, use of "up to 10" practically guarantees some modes or situations do not support 10 target engagement, or why bother with the "up to" qualifier?
Thanks a bunch on that catalogue screenshot!