Aerojet-General Sea Dragon

What's exactly the story for why Sea Dragon became so popular as a concept?
Not just because it's cool...but that it is a way for space and navy assets to share...the skills needed to build Sea Dragon and subs are the same...the shipyards the same...no competition between space and navy.

ABMA for small to medium, Navy for giant rockets--none at all for USAF--that's how things should have been. Missileers were treated like red-headed step-children in the USAF and they could be expected to quash space in favor of aviation every time..so air-to-air is all they should have gotten.

If they really wanted Dyna-Soar, then it rides stop an ABMA rocket.
 
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Wrong on many points. .A perspective that is not shared by history or others in the know.

Not just because it's cool...
Only because of cool aspect. Most don't kind or disagree with the reason you give.
.but that it is a way for space and navy assets to share...
There is no need to share. Navy assets aren't needed in the first place.
.the skills needed to build Sea Dragon and subs are the same..
No. They are complete different. Subs are thick walled and need to keep out pressure, to prevent getting crushed. Rockets need thin walls and contain pressure.
.the shipyards the same...no competition between space and navy.
No.
A. Shipyards are limited.
b. And they would not be the same. Sea Dragon was more than twice as wide as subs of that era
ABMA for small to medium, Navy for giant rockets--none at all for USAF--that's how things should have been.
a. The Navy had no need for super heavy, much less any large, launch vehicles. Navy had no experience. Truax got most of his large vehicle experience serving the Air Force
b. The Army had no need beyond battlefield rockets.
Missileers were treated like red-headed step-children in the USAF
The USAF got its ICBM money. It was producing and fielding 4 systems at once. The missiliers were protected. Missiliers in the army would have been worse off.
they could be expected to quash space in favor of aviation every time..so air-to-air is all they should have gotten.
Nope, they were protected in DC.

..so air-to-air is all they should have gotten.
Space was better off because it was in the Air Force. They knew how to deal with the CIA and they knew how to work with high altitude vehicles.
We got Agena, Delta and Titan III because of the Air Force.
We got the NRO.

If they really wanted Dyna-Soar, then it rides stop an ABMA rocket.
There is no reason for ABMA to produce such a rocket.
Best thing that happened to ABMA was NASA coming around and taking WVB's group. They would have been wasted working on Pershing and Nike or gone back to Germany. It was better that US industry was making rockets. There was more and varied designs.
 
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b. And they would not be the same. Sea Dragon was more than twice as wide as subs of that era
We got Agena, Delta and Titan III because of the Air Force.
Medaris supported Saturn I.

At any rate, todays subs are sizable. Truax's point was to dumb down rocket production to shipyard tolerances

Another example of such misdirection was the Titan intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The first stage (in 1959) used two engines of about 150,000 lb of thrust each. The single second-stage engine developed 60,000 lb. Again, I found that the smaller engine cost more. The size factor was only little over two, not five as in the case of Thor/Agena, but it still reflected the difference in launch weight between a simple vehicle and a sophisticated one. The absurdity of excessive emphasis on keeping the rocket small became clear.

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This may need to be merged with whatever the first Sea Dragon thread was here...
 
Medaris supported Saturn I.
A meaningless point. The Army had no need for it. It was funded by ARPA
At any rate, todays subs are sizable.
No, not true. Still just a little more than 1/2 Sea Dragon diameter.

A Truax's point was to dumb down rocket production to shipyard tolerances
A fallacy. The rocket equation doesn't allow for it.
Another example of such misdirection was the Titan intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The first stage (in 1959) used two engines of about 150,000 lb of thrust each. The single second-stage engine developed 60,000 lb. Again, I found that the smaller engine cost more. The size factor was only little over two, not five as in the case of Thor/Agena, but it still reflected the difference in launch weight between a simple vehicle and a sophisticated one. The absurdity of excessive emphasis on keeping the rocket small became clear.
non sequitur. There were legitimate reason for keeping the rockets smaller. These were not launch vehicles. They were weapon systems (ICBM, IRBM). They had to be transportable, built away from ports, they were based in silos. Large missiles would incur much larger infrastructure costs.

Bigger is not better. Bigger doesn't mean cheaper either.

Starship is not shipyard tolerances.
 
SpaceX disproved all that.
 
ABMA for small to medium, Navy for giant rockets--none at all for USAF--that's how things should have been. Missileers were treated like red-headed step-children in the USAF and they could be expected to quash space in favor of aviation every time..so air-to-air is all they should have gotten.
You make all this false conjectures and accusations with no data or evidence to back them up.
You just have these "feelings" or you "think" that is how it was.
 
Another example of such misdirection was the Titan intercontinental ballistic missile (ICM. The first stage (in 1959) used two engines of about 150,000 lb of thrust each.

Titan had only ONE XLR-87 engine. The engine had TWO thrust chambers, so appeared to be two engines.


 
Sea Dragon would have needed shipyards to build for sure, because you're talking about a 23m (75ft) diameter 150m (490ft) long monster.

But what kind of things would require ~500 tonnes to LEO in a single lift?

Seriously, that's the kind of lift you'd want for getting an Orion drive spaceship lifted...
 
Missileers were treated like red-headed step-children in the USAF and they could be expected to quash space in favor of aviation every time..so air-to-air is all they should have gotten.

Eh, not really. There was conflict at first but as the overall Air Force command wanted long range missiles (and the warheads they carried, because at the time in question who ever had warheads got the budget) under their purview they got the Bomber mafia to accept a compromise that got the long range missiles under the Air Force. Initially this caused problems but once Missiles were firmly under SAC then missilers were initially on-par with the bombers and later surpassed them. Similarly the missile development and operations branch was coopted to perform and act as the "official" US launch providers with the NRO built up in the background.

Initially "space" was just seen as an extension of the Air Force missile development with pretty much full Air Force support because at its most basic level flying in space was pitched and seen as simply flying "higher and faster" anyway.

Of course the main issue was by that point every branch (except maybe the Marines :) ) was trying to get into the missile and space game as it was a sure way to get an increased budget. But in context at that point everyone had different things they were doing that could in theory complement each other but instead were in competition. The Army had a large launch vehicle (Saturn) in development, the Navy had advanced microelectronics and navigation and communications work going on and the Air Force arguably had the organization and contractor support to actually run things. And needless to say all were at loggerheads over who should/would get the funding.

Hence NASA came about and ended up taking most of the Army/Navy development and using (initially) mostly Air Force rockets and support.

To be fair each branch had its own vision but they differed enough that at a very fundamental level each pursuing that vision would have ended up with a fairly mediocre "space program" from the rather simple fact they didn't have much more than some vague ideas of expanding "current" operations into space. What was needed was a broader and more complete vision along with the support to push it forward. Instead what the US got was a singular "goal" oriented "waste anything but time" mission that arguably fit the initial Air Force operational map so that's what NASA ended up going with.
We're still dealing with that fallout today.

The USAF got its ICBM money. It was producing and fielding 4 systems at once. The missiliers were protected. Missiliers in the army would have been worse off.

Not really as evidenced by the Army missile deployments and operations historically. Biggest operational and doctrinal difference was the Air Force wanted non-mobile missiles while the Army wanted mobile systems. It was a good enough point the Air Force ended up lobbying for mobile systems but by that point the costs were going to be too high to implement.

Nope, they were protected in DC.

To the break out of the Korean War the Air Force had been the main monetary and supported service, (and even that was not enough to actually do much with) and once that kicked off money was poured into all the branches to try and repair the damage. Unfortunately the time between the end of WWII and the beginning of the Korean War had hardened and deepened the regular inter-service rivalry between the different branches to the point where it had been expected that (had the Korean War not happened) only one service would be retained with the other branches being absorbed by that branch or being turned into essentially "National Guard" level sub-services.

Once the Korean War broke out that policy and doctrine was replaced in DC by one of wanting to pump up all the services to near-WWII levels because of how off guard Korea caught US policy and doctrine. The "problem" was that all three branches were still in "panic/survival mode" initially which meant they were all trying to become THE premier service over the other two which meant not only taking on as much of the "nuclear" mission as possible but meanwhile denying the other branches as many missions as possible.

As it stood the Air Force was going to end up with bombers and ICBM's so two of the three legs of the "triad" with the Navy having to initially scramble to gain the SLBM mission. Arguably it would have been better for the Army to have the ICBM's because it didn't really fit with the Air Force's initial (post WWII) mission but that ship has sailed already. As it is, today one can argue (and it's been done... a lot :) ) that the only "leg" of the triad we actually need are the SLBM's but again that's a ship that has sailed and is unlikely to be revisited at this point.

It can be argued that DC at this point really does not understand "deterrence" or the "triad" very well and only looks at the votes/money that a new system would provide but given they have been hemming and hawing, and starting and stopping for almost 50 years now on getting new systems up and running it's rather obvious that they are not very well versed or even care about the actual "missions". So it's more finding a way to work around them at this point rather than being "protected" by them :)

Space was better off because it was in the Air Force. They knew how to deal with the CIA and they knew how to work with high altitude vehicles.
We got Agena, Delta and Titan III because of the Air Force.
We got the NRO.

"Space" was arguably better off with NASA but as noted above they had to absorb a lot of the Air Force doctrine and operations to get to the Moon in under a decade. That has hurt them in the long run and they've been having to try and adapt back to being "just another agency" of the US since 1969. The Air Force never had a clear "mission" or "vision" of space, any more than any of the other branches did it was always more than just the "new high ground" and frankly an Air Force space program would have been pretty much a mirror of the Soviet space program rather than what we got with NASA.

That is inane. There is no reason for ABMA to produce such a rocket.
Best thing that happened to ABMA was NASA coming around and taking WVB's group. They would have been wasted working on Pershing and Nike or gone back to Germany. It was better that US industry was making rockets. There was more and varied designs.

You've already pointed out that ABMA WAS developing such a rocket at the behest of ARPA, and the main obstacle to that development was in fact the US Air Force who kept stopping the ARPA development money with promises of literally paper rockets and future development "someday" versus ABMA's actual development of a working rocket. It was literally the only thing that could carry Dynasoar to orbit by the time the design was finalised. Even the Air Force acknowledged that, (grudgingly) and ended up requesting ABMA do some redesign work on the Saturn to allow it. (And then Dynasoar got canceled and ABMA had to literally take metal saws to the rocket before it's first test flight. Which went off without a hitch unlike so many Air Force missiles before it. Yes taking WVB/Marshall into NASA was a very good thing but considering how the first test Saturn was literally built from mostly scavenged parts it says something good about that team and the Army was very aware of that. As was the Air Force and what was to become NASA so win-win I'd say ;) )

In the very end I'm sure you will all be "shocked" find out the background and history is very, very complicated by forces and issues that today we'd find really confusing and often hard to understand because we've never had to deal with them and didn't have to find a solution for. Pretty much nobody was 'useless' in building up what the US has. It was often wasteful, contentious, and at times cut-throat but we're better for it I think. (Of course the Air Force is still the premier service, after all they had me for 21 years so there is that :) )

Randy
 
Bigger is not better. Bigger doesn't mean cheaper either.

Starship is not shipyard tolerances.

Well no but it's not far off considering how it's being billed. It's kind of indicative that most of the current failures can be attributed to construction and design issues. (And of course bad management decisions like putting all your high-time, low quality engines on a vehicle and expecting them to work for example :) )

SpaceX disproved all that.

Not as clearly as it is thought. Initially SpaceX was in fact following a lot of the "low-cost" practices but very rapidly found out why that was a bad idea and they ended up doing most things the "proper" way with the majority of cost savings coming from internal organization and procedural changes. They are currently going even more in the "cheap-large-booster/mass-production" methods which so far have not gained the performance or cost effectiveness that had been hoped. What SpaceX did is force the older aerospace firms to finally rebuilt their design and production infrastructure to modernize and streamline their costs to compete with SpaceX on a more even level. Which they are actually doing.

SpaceX has shaken up the industry but in context has not actually managed to have the effect that was aimed for. (Well not what SpaceX was actually aiming for but NASA/DoD got the effect they wanted :) )

Randy
 
Sea Dragon would have needed shipyards to build for sure, because you're talking about a 23m (75ft) diameter 150m (490ft) long monster.

Pretty much and despite what people might think such construction was well within the capability of most shipyards up to and including some precision work if needed. No. most of the direct "processes" wouldn't be the same as building a "ship" but most of the actual WORK would be similar. As noted Starship is actually trying this in a somewhat haphazard and off-handed manner which still has plenty of glitches in it. Arguably Starship could be called on as a "corn-silo" construction and arguably that has a lesser cost than "spacecraft" construction but as we've seen that's not really showing the savings and reliability that was supposed to happen.

I've no doubts that we'd have seen a similar "evolution" with something like Seadragon because a "spacecraft" is not an airplane nor is it a ship and very much vice-a-versa as it were. Spacecraft are harder, reusable ones harder than that.

On the other hand Truax was convinced that Seadragon would have worked and had the math to prove is but was never happy about having to try and take "baby-steps" towards the final goal. NASA on the other hand wasn't willing to try for an all-up Seadragon and were more correct about the support and ability to get the US government to finance such a vehicle. (Too bad they couldn't apply the same logic to the Shuttle but that's another subject :) )

But what kind of things would require ~500 tonnes to LEO in a single lift?

A main and very large issue in and of itself because there was nothing that DID (or frankly does) "require" that kind of lift. But that wasn't the actual "point" for Truax and other believers. It was very much "Build-it-and-they-will-Come" type thinking. As noted Seadragon couldn't "win" even when such payload masses were actually being considered so that says something about the design. Not really 'right' for most needs and like the Orion-Drive the cases where it DOES make some sense are limited and pretty niche scenarios.

Seriously, that's the kind of lift you'd want for getting an Orion drive spaceship lifted...

Well technically I think the biggest that had any real work done was around 440 tons but yes that was about the same incentive and requirement :)
(To be more concise though a much smaller OD vehicles HAS some very good supporting arguments that have been made for development. I just don't see it being all that politically "viable" unless it's a real emergency situation. Darn it :) )

Randy
 
(To be more concise though a much smaller OD vehicles HAS some very good supporting arguments that have been made for development. I just don't see it being all that politically "viable" unless it's a real emergency situation. Darn it :) )
Yeah, the only way I see Orion Drive vehicles getting built is a Footfall scenario. First contact gone very poorly.
 
Yeah, the only way I see Orion Drive vehicles getting built is a Footfall scenario. First contact gone very poorly.

Actually I was referring to a proposed "slightly" different idea :) (Not that the Footfall scenario isn't still applicable :) )
Called "Gabriel" it was a planetary protection system using an OD drive both as propulsion and trajectory adjustment means. Interestingly it had a version of 'beamed' propulsion where the idea was to shoot SHE (Super-High-Explosives) charges at the pusher-plate for initial boost. On the other hand I rather fancy the idea of using a Nuclear Verne Gun to initially launch them :)

I'd support having them around "just in case" as you can never be too paranoid :)

Randy
 
Truax just had bad luck. The Army had liquid fueled rockets which the Navy didn’t like dealing with—and Truax had Rickover usurping everything just like LeMay did with Air Force.

This meant the United States had the polar opposite situation where the ‘Soviet ABMA’ had the juice.

Poor Robert:

Mr. Day’s article right there makes me think the real reason some in the USAF pushed so hard for missilery and such—was for no other reason than to sit on it—to keep it out of the hands of Medaris and Truax and other true believers come acquisition time.

I will go to my grave believing that. Which might not be too long from now.
 
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But what kind of things would require ~500 tonnes to LEO in a single lift?

That was a *NASA* requirement for Post-Saturn launch vehicles circa 1962-63. Why? Because that's the approximate mass of liquid hydrogen needed for a manned Mars vehicle as envisioned at the time: a cluster of NERVA-powered stages launching a big spacecraft with a big Mars Excursion Module, capable of entering orbit around Mars, landing some number of men on Mars, returning the men to the orbiting spacecraft and returning them to Earth without need for resupply along the way.

Today we'd design the mission with in situ propellant production and orbiting propellant depots, capable of keeping large quantities of LH2 liquid while in Earth orbit. But in the early 60's, that wasn't in the cards. If you launched the LH2 with a sizable number of smaller tankers, you'd expect *massive* boiloff and losses in transfers. Thus, Sea Dragon or NEXUS or any of the other thousand-ton-payload boosters would launch one giant can of gas at the end of the assembly of the Mars spacecraft, for transfer at once and near-immediate launch to Mars.
 
It was literally the only thing that could carry Dynasoar to orbit by the time the design was finalised.
Wrong. No, there was Titan III. It was designed specifically for Dynasoar and it was slated to be its first payload. Dynasoar CDR was in 1962, Titan II was started in 1961.
 
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Yes taking WVB/Marshall into NASA was a very good thing but considering how the first test Saturn was literally built from mostly scavenged parts it says something good about that team and the Army was very aware of that. )
Fallacy. The H-1 engines were purpose built. There were no "scavenged parts". The tanks were purpose built. They just used existing tooling (for the Redstone and Jupiter tanks). https://gwsbooks.blogspot.com/2017/09/saturn-i-made-from-1-jupiter-and-8.html
 
In the very end I'm sure you will all be "shocked" find out the background and history is very, very complicated by forces and issues that today we'd find really confusing and often hard to understand because we've never had to deal with them and didn't have to find a solution for. snip.
(Of course the Air Force is still the premier service, after all they had me for 21 years so there is that :) )

Randy
You got a lot wrong here, too much to go into. But I was also in the USAF and had access to the history. I was at LAAFB and the Cape. Also, with NASA.
 
Not as clearly as it is thought. Initially SpaceX was in fact following a lot of the "low-cost" practices but very rapidly found out why that was a bad idea and they ended up doing most things the "proper" way with the majority of cost savings coming from internal organization and procedural changes. They are currently going even more in the "cheap-large-booster/mass-production" methods which so far have not gained the performance or cost effectiveness that had been hoped. What SpaceX did is force the older aerospace firms to finally rebuilt their design and production infrastructure to modernize and streamline their costs to compete with SpaceX on a more even level. Which they are actually doing.\

Randy
That was only true for Falcon 1. It was more than just "internal organization and procedural changes", It was Falcon 9 design.

"the older aerospace firms" still have not changed to what SpaceX has done. Yes, they have cleaned house and straightened up some things, but their vehicle designs haven't changed.
 
Arguably Starship could be called on as a "corn-silo" construction and arguably that has a lesser cost than "spacecraft" construction but as we've seen that's not really showing the savings and reliability that was supposed to happen.
Starship is a launch vehicle and not a spacecraft.
Savings are there. It is cheaper than other launch vehicles.
 
1. Truax just had bad luck. The Army had liquid fueled rockets which the Navy didn’t like dealing with—and Truax had Rickover usurping everything just like LeMay did with Air Force.

2. This meant the United States had the polar opposite situation where the ‘Soviet ABMA’ had the juice.

3. Mr. Day’s article right there makes me think the real reason some in the USAF pushed so hard for missilery and such—was for no other reason than to sit on it—

4. to keep it out of the hands of Medaris and Truax

5. and other true believers come acquisition time.

6. I will go to my grave believing that. Which might not be too long from now.
1. Nope. Truax could have worked for Raborn in the Special Projects Office
2. No, there was no single Soviet ABMA equivalent. There were multiple design bureaus.
3. The USAF did not "sit on it". They were working multiple missile programs as fast as they could. The Air Force was working on Atlas before the Army was working on Jupiter.
4. Truax worked for the USAF for 5 years (1/4 of his Navy career) starting in 1955, the middle of all the major missile development timeframe.
5. What are "true believers"?
6. You believe what you want to believe. Much like flatearthers and moon hoaxers, evidence and data won't sway you.
 
Truax just had bad luck. The Army had liquid fueled rockets which the Navy didn’t like dealing with—and Truax had Rickover usurping everything just like LeMay did with Air Force.

This meant the United States had the polar opposite situation where the ‘Soviet ABMA’ had the juice.

Poor Robert:

Mr. Day’s article right there makes me think the real reason some in the USAF pushed so hard for missilery and such—was for no other reason than to sit on it—to keep it out of the hands of Medaris and Truax and other true believers come acquisition time.

I will go to my grave believing that. Which might not be too long from now.
Well, at the time there was a lot-- A LOT-- of interservice rivalry between the USAF and the other branches. The USAF being the upstart in that era tried damned hard to grab everything they could in terms of programs for their exclusive purview. Most of this was ironed out in the Key West Agreements, but even so rivalry continued with many programs, particularly missiles.

An actual example of this is with SAM programs. The USAF was assigned only "long-range" SAMs while the Army got shorter range (less than 200 mile) ones. This meant the USAF could only now build something very long range and longer-ranged ABMs in this category.
Their GAPA program was to be handed over to the Army, but of course, the USAF was loathe to do that, so they rolled GAPA over into BOMARC to keep it in house. The problem was BOMARC duplicated the later Nike series in function, even if it had a bit more range. That made BOMARC short lived particularly when it proved unable to be used as an ABM unlike Nike Hercules and Zeus--even if these were marginal in that role.
At the same time, the Army and USAF refused to adopt Land Talos, arguably a much better SAM than the Nike series for high altitude, long range, air defense because the Navy had developed it. Can't give the Navy control of that program...

R.8935c3dc166cf3bfa5879438f13e7816


Land Talos test set up at WSMR. This system operationally would have had 4 channels available to engage 4 targets simultaneously versus Nike Hercules having one channel per battery with a single engagement rate with both having roughly the same range and altitude specs.

Anyway, if there was a rivalry to be had, and the USAF was involved, there was going to be fight over the program, 100% guaranteed, back in the 60's.
 
Well, at the time there was a lot-- A LOT-- of interservice rivalry between the USAF and the other branches. The USAF being the upstart in that era tried damned hard to grab everything they could in terms of programs for their exclusive purview.
Space Force won’t be as successful, I fear.

An actual example of this is with SAM programs…the Army and USAF refused to adopt Land Talos
I concede that certainly.
Anyway, if there was a rivalry to be had, and the USAF was involved, there was going to be fight over the program, 100% guaranteed, back in the 60's.
Early on, aviators like Billy Mitchell were on the outside looking in of course.

I think once USAF became the premier service branch—there was an unconscious undercurrent to make sure that didn’t happen again…with space advocates scattered across all the branches with various thumbs atop their heads,

At any rate, this and Interorbital are about all that is left of the Sea Dragon concept.

It hurts that everyone wants to copy SpaceX alone.

Beal who?
 
That was a *NASA* requirement for Post-Saturn launch vehicles circa 1962-63. Why? Because that's the approximate mass of liquid hydrogen needed for a manned Mars vehicle as envisioned at the time: a cluster of NERVA-powered stages launching a big spacecraft with a big Mars Excursion Module, capable of entering orbit around Mars, landing some number of men on Mars, returning the men to the orbiting spacecraft and returning them to Earth without need for resupply along the way.

Today we'd design the mission with in situ propellant production and orbiting propellant depots, capable of keeping large quantities of LH2 liquid while in Earth orbit. But in the early 60's, that wasn't in the cards. If you launched the LH2 with a sizable number of smaller tankers, you'd expect *massive* boiloff and losses in transfers. Thus, Sea Dragon or NEXUS or any of the other thousand-ton-payload boosters would launch one giant can of gas at the end of the assembly of the Mars spacecraft, for transfer at once and near-immediate launch to Mars.
Ah, that makes sense! Thank you.

Still a monstrous amount of lift, I had been thinking "space station components" but most space stations got wiped out with the development of transistors. If you don't need to replace vacuum tubes every 50 hours or whatever, you don't need people in space.

If only transistors had taken another decade to get out of R&D! So we would have already had lots of space stations and manned satellites for whatever.
 
Still a monstrous amount of lift, I had been thinking "space station components" but most space stations got wiped out with the development of transistors. If you don't need to replace vacuum tubes every 50 hours or whatever, you don't need people in space.

If you want to have people in space, you kinda need to have people in space. And neato-keen as robotic probes are, they are in the end not of any real value if you don't plan on going out there to spread civilization. And for the first half of the 60's, the people who worked at NASA - if not necessarily the people who *ran* NASA - felt certain that was the whole point of what they were doing: the conquest of space.

Sea Dragon and the other Post-Nova/Post-Saturn designs were huge. But as Dandridge Cole's Aldebaran showed, they were simply a step on the way to what "everyone" expected would be flying by the 21st century.
 
If you want to have people in space, you kinda need to have people in space. And neato-keen as robotic probes are, they are in the end not of any real value if you don't plan on going out there to spread civilization. And for the first half of the 60's, the people who worked at NASA - if not necessarily the people who *ran* NASA - felt certain that was the whole point of what they were doing: the conquest of space.

Sea Dragon and the other Post-Nova/Post-Saturn designs were huge. But as Dandridge Cole's Aldebaran showed, they were simply a step on the way to what "everyone" expected would be flying by the 21st century.
Right.

My comment about the transistor is kinda key.

Heinlein et al were assuming space stations everywhere because all the electronics were still vacuum tube based. And tubes, like the glorified incandescent light bulbs they are, burn out every so often and require replacement. So anything in orbit long term by definition needed crew, just to play janitor/tech and replace the burned out tubes. I'm sure the original astronauts would have been pissed off about their commissioned officer selves having to hunt down and change vacuum tubes, so now there's enlisted "mission specialists" who work up in space.

If transistors hadn't been reliable enough for the space craft, that would have forced the building of manned satellites using vacuum tubes for everything for enough years to get a large launch industry up and running and how it's cheaper to keep your troops in space for a year or whatever the decided deployment time was would have gotten space stations built for R&R (for example). Big wheel style, spinning fast enough to get maybe 0.5gee.

And there'd be lots of those R&R stations up there, more or less one for every major satellite inclination. Because changing inclination is a huge amount of delta vee.

That's what we missed out on because of transistors...
 
That's what we missed out on because of transistors...

You're probably not wrong. Though without transistors I'm note sure spaceflight would have been cheap enough - even 1960's "cheap" - to support manned operations. A lack of transistors might have forced the space industry to invent transistors.
 
No. They are complete different. Subs are thick walled and need to keep out pressure, to prevent getting crushed. Rockets need thin walls and contain pressure.
That isn't quite true. Submarines want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the external pressure applies. Rockets want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the internal pressure applied.

AFAIK, the logic with Sea Dragon (and the pressure-fed 'big dumb booster' generally) was that the thin metal of traditional low-weight aerospace construction was difficult to work with, driving up costs. By building rockets out of thick metal, and just making them bigger to compensate for the inefficiency, cost would be reduced. Likewise, by using mechanically simple, but inefficient, pressure-fed engines instead of complex, efficient, pump-fed ones, cost would be further minimised. The result would be a very large rocket, inefficient by traditional size-based metrics, that was cheaper to operate by traditional measures.

This was one of the great hopes of the 1990s and early 2000s commercial spaceflight enthusiasts, which is where Sea Dragon and the likes really started getting popular. The success of this theory is shown by the huge numbers of privately-funded Sea Dragon type rockets that are launched every year.

Oh. Wait.
 
That's what we missed out on because of transistors...
Those and chips should have been invented on a Moonbase…;)

Starship is “semi” Sea Dragon…just pump fed—nowhere as strong.

Now I remember a Wiki blurb about how NASA thought it “technically uninteresting” but I think that was removed.

I do like the idea of heavily constructed wet stage craft.

That could contain asteroid bits…withstand abuse..be a rotorvator fulcrum…
 
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Space Force won’t be as successful, I fear.
Reality proves otherwise. Space Force is getting more money and roles. The Space Force is part of the JCS. The budget is more. The Army and Navy gave up their satellite control organizations. UHF/Tactical Comm is now Space Force responsibility. Space Force is too big to fail.

It hurts that everyone wants to copy SpaceX alone.

Beal who?
Beal was before Musk and had the wrong ideas. What is the matter with copy Musk?
 
That isn't quite true. Submarines want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the external pressure applies. Rockets want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the internal pressure applied.
It is true. You can't swap construction techniques and metals. Submarines get their strength from the metal thickness and have no other structural support. Rockets (other than classic Atlas and Centaur) have machined/etched/bonded grids or ribs/hoops & stringers to the skin panels to provide strength.
 
Those and chips should have been invented on a Moonbase…;)
There is no reasonable logic behind that.
There would be no moonrise without transistors and ICs

Plus, there would be no cell phones, PC's, etc then.
 
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That isn't quite true. Submarines want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the external pressure applies. Rockets want to have the thinnest possible walls compatible with the internal pressure applied.

AFAIK, the logic with Sea Dragon (and the pressure-fed 'big dumb booster' generally) was that the thin metal of traditional low-weight aerospace construction was difficult to work with, driving up costs. By building rockets out of thick metal, and just making them bigger to compensate for the inefficiency, cost would be reduced. Likewise, by using mechanically simple, but inefficient, pressure-fed engines instead of complex, efficient, pump-fed ones, cost would be further minimised. The result would be a very large rocket, inefficient by traditional size-based metrics, that was cheaper to operate by traditional measures.

This was one of the great hopes of the 1990s and early 2000s commercial spaceflight enthusiasts, which is where Sea Dragon and the likes really started getting popular. The success of this theory is shown by the huge numbers of privately-funded Sea Dragon type rockets that are launched every year.

Oh. Wait.
The problem with pressure driven fuel systems for rockets is that you can't easily regulate the pressure and flow on them, particularly as they get larger. What happens is you have to add some complexity to the tanks in the form of bladders to try and keep the pressure on the fuel constant. You also have to increase the wall thickness of tanks to deal with the pressure.
As the fuel depletes and the gas is used up, the pressure pushing the fuel falls and with it the engine thrust as less fuel is pushed into it.

This is why everybody went to turbopumps to pull the fuel at a constant rate into the engine. It also decreases the chances that the pressure on the two tanks won't be equal and the rate of injection varying from the calculated balance. When this happens with pressurized systems you increase the chances of things like the engine not igniting, an explosion from a fuel imbalance, etc.
Turbopumps also added to thrust slightly as their exhaust was directed to a nozzle beside the main one.

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While that is an early engine used on Redstone, it clearly shows the steam exhaust for the HTP run turbopumps. This also allows the fuel and pump exhaust to be used for cooling the nozzle, something you really can't do using simple pressurization systems.
 
It is true. You can't swap construction techniques and metals. Submarines get their strength from the metal thickness and have no other structural support. Rockets (other than classic Atlas and Centaur) have machined/etched/bonded grids or ribs/hoops & stringers to the skin panels to provide strength.
I'm sure you're knowledgable about rockets, but you clearly aren't about submarines. I assure you, they are also stiffened cylinders, and very substantially so. There's actually a very strong incentive to minimise structural weight on submarines, since they're absolutely required to be neutrally buoyant, and every tonne of steel is a tonne that can't go into something useful.

The structural concepts would certainly have to be different, because no ship has any business doing the things that rockets do, and vice versa. That would drive a lot of design differences. But when it comes to rolling and welding thick plates, shipyards know what they're doing.

Material considerations would be different, of course. But it's probably easier to train shipyard welders how to work with aluminium than it is to equip a rocket factory with the machinery to roll and weld very heavy plate, and a dry dock.
The problem with pressure driven fuel systems for rockets is that you can't easily regulate the pressure and flow on them, particularly as they get larger.
The forces involved also start getting quite concerning, since the tank needs to be at higher pressure than the combustion chamber in order to force propellant into it. Pressurising the Stage 1 kerosene tank to 3.25 MPa (470 psi) inevitably drives you to unreasonably thick walls and heavy weight. The pressure is equivalent to that experienced by a submarine at 320 metres depth, though in tension rather than in compression.
 
Define "unreasonably thick"

If you want space expansion beyond the Comsat model, having well built steel up there is an asset. The new quartz crystal solar furnace capable of generating temperatures above a thousand degrees Centigrade will demand boilers.

Starship is a plumbing nightmare--between Saturn and Atlas in construction, it also demands to be kept vertical and that makes it unreasonably unwieldy.

China needs to copy Truax, not Musk.
 
China needs to copy Truax, not Musk.
again, an opinion not based on any data, logic or engineering. Much like those of pop star fans. And your "stars'" legacies have all faded. You hitched your wagon to the wrong horses: Truax, Chelomei, Korolev, ABMA,

Truax didn't produce anything of relevance once he left the navy. He never produced an operational system. Sea Dragon was nothing but paper.

Musk had produced the cheapest launch vehicle whose design is the opposite of Truax's thinking.
 
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I have to say that I could never see pressure feed scaling up well, and the plan to pressurise a vast kerosene tank to 30+ atmospheres seems likely to put the weight up.
 
Wrong. No, there was Titan III. It was designed specifically for Dynasoar and it was slated to be its first payload. Dynasoar CDR was in 1962, Titan II was started in 1961.

And like most of the Air Force "heavy lift" launch vehicles it was still very much a "paper design" by the time the Air Force was aiming towards flight. Hence the reason the Air Force had ARPA require ABMA to redesign the initial Saturn test article to ensure it could carry it. Then the Dynasoar was canceled and ABMA had to take metal cutters to cut down the fins that were designed and built to offset the Dynasoar's lift during launch. And the Air Force pivoted the Titan III towards MOL. Which was actually a good thing as Titan III was on the chopping block before it ever got built because the Air Force had tied it's development to the Dynasoar.
(Simply put the Titan III wasn't going to be ready to fly until the mid-to-late 60s and the Air Force needed a working booster to test Dynasoar before that. The Air Force was not happy about it but they had to agree to work with ABMA on the Saturn because it WOULD be ready)

Fallacy. The H-1 engines were purpose built. There were no "scavenged parts". The tanks were purpose built. They just used existing tooling (for the Redstone and Jupiter tanks). https://gwsbooks.blogspot.com/2017/09/saturn-i-made-from-1-jupiter-and-8.html

The project engineers clearly stated in numerous monographs and articles that they literally scavenged parts and materials for the first Saturn flight item. Mostly because ARPA kept stopping and starting the budget over and over. (Air Force again) The H-1's were modified engines essentially similar to the basic Thor and Jupiter engine. The tanks were built using Jupiter and Redstone tanks assembly fixtures and those were used on all the Saturn 1's. The engineers were quite proud of the fact they managed to assemble and launch the initial Saturn 1 on time and under budget despite the flaky nature of that budget.

You got a lot wrong here, too much to go into. But I was also in the USAF and had access to the history. I was at LAAFB and the Cape. Also, with NASA.

Sounds like fun, and kind of the arc I'd aimed for but no luck getting into liquid fueled missiles before they cut them out of the service and regular "ammo" didn't cut it. Still I got to spend a good chunk of time at one of the Air Forces main technical libraries so got a lot of history and development information. I kind of doubt I got as much "wrong" as you think :)

That was only true for Falcon 1. It was more than just "internal organization and procedural changes", It was Falcon 9 design.

Yes they learned the hard way that the "old" methods had a meaning and ended up changing to adapt them. The Falcon 9 would never have flown otherwise. They had to learn that no all the "old" methods and means were just "habit".

"the older aerospace firms" still have not changed to what SpaceX has done. Yes, they have cleaned house and straightened up some things, but their vehicle designs haven't changed.

Well there's a good reason for that as SpaceX has not shown the supposed extreme price drop for their internal operations so that the older expendable designs are still very much competitive. (It helps of course that the government doesn't want to end up being dependent on a single company or launch vehicle)

Starship is a launch vehicle and not a spacecraft.
Savings are there. It is cheaper than other launch vehicles.

Funny as SpaceX calls it a "Spacecraft" and that in fact is what they are trying to do with it, so no. And no the 'savings' are not shown in any plausible manner given they so far have been nothing but empty tubes rather than anything that can actually do any job required of the supposed design. Trying to claim it's "cheaper" when it can't even function at all is stretching things pretty far.

3. The USAF did not "sit on it". They were working multiple missile programs as fast as they could. The Air Force was working on Atlas before the Army was working on Jupiter.

And Jupiter was better than Thor by all accounts except that it was specifically a single "executive decision" that took Jupiter out of Army hands and handed it to the Air Force. ABMA even offered to build Jupiter's for the Air Force instead of the Air Force having to develop the Thor but the Air Force refused the offer. (And ended up having to use the Jupiter anyway)

Space Force won’t be as successful, I fear.

Depends. The main issue as of now is they are nothing but the already existing "Space Command" without having to actually work with the Army and Navy which Space Command did. They really don't have that much of a 'job' at the moment. That's going to change, eventually.

Early on, aviators like Billy Mitchell were on the outside looking in of course.

Er, how so? Keep in mind that Mitchell was mostly advocating the Air Force be a separate service and not folded into the Army as it was. Post WWI that was a pipe dream with the American military budget.

At any rate, this and Interorbital are about all that is left of the Sea Dragon concept.

Eh, not really. Interorbital has changed so much "planning" and has of yet to actually build and launch anything with any kind of success so they are highly unlikely to get anywhere. (Mind you I liked the initial concepts but they never had a good plan to move forward with that design and then kept switching things looking for more funding.... Helps if you have a design and stick with it)

It hurts that everyone wants to copy SpaceX alone.

They don't, many have other ideas and are getting support for them. A lot of people can see that the "SpaceX" way is not the only way.

Beal who?

Tell me you're kidding?

Randy
 
If you want to have people in space, you kinda need to have people in space. And neato-keen as robotic probes are, they are in the end not of any real value if you don't plan on going out there to spread civilization. And for the first half of the 60's, the people who worked at NASA - if not necessarily the people who *ran* NASA - felt certain that was the whole point of what they were doing: the conquest of space.

Sea Dragon and the other Post-Nova/Post-Saturn designs were huge. But as Dandridge Cole's Aldebaran showed, they were simply a step on the way to what "everyone" expected would be flying by the 21st century.

And Space Stations were always supposed to be the "next" step after orbital flight but OTL's "Apollo" kind of wrecked that path. We've had to go back and actually "justify" having a Space Station at all. (But then Congress was only interested in the Space Station because it kept NASA in check)

Yes the reason for having people in space is literally about having people in space. It makes no sense otherwise. No nation on Earth has an actual plan (or even much of a goal) of putting people into space to 'expand civilization' because it's simply not cost effective. Kind of why you need cheap launch for people and supplies in order to move things beyond being at "government" whim.

Randy
 

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