Advanced Phantom Projects

[circle-5]

The F-4VS swing-wing Phantom II was a Grumman design, proposed as an upgrade to existing McDonnell F-4 airframes. Attached are a couple photos of an F-4VS concept model from the Grumman model shop.

 

[Antonio]

Great model,

thanks for posting

 

[Rickshaw]

Does anybody have any information on where the wheels folded?

 

[Thorvic]

Overscan has put a cutaway picture on page 2 of the thread, which shows the wheels retacted into the main fuselage in to a recess below each engine intake trunking.

Cheers

Geoff

 

[alfakilo]

I'm not sure the crew would like sitting under that wing in the fully swept position.

 

[Skybolt]

I assume you mean the skewed wing one ? Probably, surely the ejection sequence would been reworked, releasing the wing from he pivot first, for example. But as I said, the reasons for rejecting it was already serious on purely aerodynamic grounds, and sprouted from the requirement to be carrier-based.

 

[alfakilo]

I assume you mean the skewed wing one ? Probably, surely the ejection sequence would been reworked, releasing the wing from he pivot first, for example.

Now, that would have been interesting!!

 

[robunos]

As I posted above, it's my opinion that the wing would not be swept more than about 60o in flight.


cheers,
robin.

 

[Skybolt]

Probably you're right, but the report I have doesn't mention this.

 

[AeroFranz]

60 degrees is the max angle the AD-1 flew at. Lots of cross-coupling of the controls, but I guess the flight control system would take care of that.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

I found another document in the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum archives this past weekend covering the F-4 (FVS) proposal. Here is a drawing of the manufacturing breakdown which gives some idea of the make up of the airframe.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[circle-5]

Very nice, thank you.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

A few more proposed Phantoms for your perusal. First off is the brochure "The Phantom II for Ground Attack" dated October 21, 1964 and then a few drawings culled from the report. I am including the "F-4D from the F-4C" drawing as a reference for the other internal arrangement drawings.

Brochure is from the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[elmayerle]

Greetings All -

A few more proposed Phantoms for your perusal. First off is the brochure "The Phantom II for Ground Attack" dated October 21, 1964 and then a few drawings culled from the report. I am including the "F-4D from the F-4C" drawing as a reference for the other internal arrangement drawings.

Brochure is from the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Very nice indeed!! *chuckle* I wonder, if you kept the original tailhook, would you have a basis for an updated "AH-1"? Another thought is that the single-seater would look nice with the original low rear canopy of the XF4H-1; might be an interesting idea for a model.

 

[Sundog]

Greetings All -

A few more proposed Phantoms for your perusal. First off is the brochure "The Phantom II for Ground Attack" dated October 21, 1964 and then a few drawings culled from the report. I am including the "F-4D from the F-4C" drawing as a reference for the other internal arrangement drawings.

Brochure is from the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Very nice indeed!! *chuckle* I wonder, if you kept the original tailhook, would you have a basis for an updated "AH-1"? Another thought is that the single-seater would look nice with the original low rear canopy of the XF4H-1; might be an interesting idea for a model.

Wasn't the original F-4F proposal a single seater? I recall seeing a single seat Phantom, based off of the F-4E, in Luftwaffe markings. I might just have to get up off of my butt and dig up my Phantom book.

 

[Jemiba]

AFAIK, the single seat Phantom, proposed for the Luftwaffe, would have
had a standard canopy, just the backseat would have been replaced by
avionics. So, there would have been few external differences.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Take a look at the bottom of Page 2 of this thread - the single seat Phantom proposal to Germany...

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Sundog]

Take a look at the bottom of Page 2 of this thread - the single seat Phantom proposal to Germany...

Enjoy the Day! Mark

LOL, you know, I went back through every page of this thread, but I just scanned the pics showing, I didn't look at attachments. Thanks!

 

[flateric]

F-4 WT models for store loads tests

 

[circle-5]

Another view of the F-4VS proposal model, a V-G Grumman modification of McDonnell airframes. Lower fuselage bulges are for redesigned main landing gear.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Fascinating - thanks for showing it.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

I found this amongst some transparencies for a overhead projector. I tried scanning like a negative with blah results then tried it with a sheet of white paper and was much happier with the results.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

Wow, that's superb!!! Thanks a lot, Mark.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Colour corrected...

 

[circle-5]

Is it just me, or is there something wrong with the radome perspective on this illustration?

 

[aim9xray]

THAT... is why they are called artist's conceptions deceptions.

 

[Pioneer]

Hey great find Mark!!!!
Thanks for sharing your find with us!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Boxman]

I came across a couple of these great photos of an F4H-1 (BuNo 143388a - One of the "Sageburner" Phantoms) posted by n747ge on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/). Two questions:

1. Any ideas what is going on (project, purpose, etc.) with the No. 1 Engine and cone shaped exhaust apparently attached to a J79? My Google-fu is probably weak, but various searches combining the BuNo, the engine, terms like "conical exhaust," "cone-shaped exhaust," "J79", etc. have come up empty.

2.Also, what are the circular markings on the rudder, wingtip, and underneath the engine. I'm guessing calibration markings of some kind, but they're unlike any I have ever seen. Note the "bullseye" is missing from the painted circle on the rudder in the second photo (FWIW).

Looking forward to what the brain trust has to say here. (Apologies for being unable to embed the photos in this post).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5500422668/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5500422502/in/photostream/

 

[Trident]

It would probably help if we knew when those photos were taken, but I take it you don't know more than the captions let on either? In any case, GE did ground-test plug nozzles on J79 and J85 engines in the mid-late 1970s, with an eye toward noise reduction for SSTs:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA094295

No hints about any flight testing though :-\

 

[Boxman]

It would probably help if we knew when those photos were taken, but I take it you don't know more than the captions let on either? In any case, GE did ground-test plug nozzles on J79 and J85 engines in the mid-late 1970s, with an eye toward noise reduction for SSTs:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA094295

No hints about any flight testing though :-\

Thank you for the link and the information. Apparently, the aircraft was(is?) still in existence at the former Marine Corps museum in Quantico, albeit in pretty poor shape. This 2003 story by Robert F. Dorr states BuNo 143388 flew between September 1960 to May 1966, and was operated by GE as a testbed at Edwards AFB.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/legacy/rar/0-292308-1704837.php
"The Navy’s 'Custody and Transfer Record' on bureau No. 143388 describes the plane’s brief service life. It went to Edwards on Sept. 21, 1960, and apparently remained there until May 1, 1966, when it was transported to Jacksonville, Fla., and 'struck' from flying status."

 

[aim9xray]

Wow, these (and the rest of the early '60s photos) are wonderful! Particularly the the B-58/YJ93 pod!

What we are looking at is (as mentioned above) is a plug nozzle. I do not know if it was first developed first on the rocket side or the jet engine side in the mid-fifties, but this technology became publicized in the late 50s/early 60s in concepts for non-afterburning/supersonic jet engine applications. They were illustrated on J58 derivatives for advanced B-58s, for example. For all of the media exposure, the only production installation that I can think of was on the J52 when installed on the USAF GAM-77/AGM-28 Hound Dog cruise missile.

Turning to the matter at hand, I find that NASA Lewis tested a J-47 Air Cooled Plug Nozzle, in the December 1955-February 1956 time frame.

After thinking about it for a while - I'm going to throw out a theory - this was a sub-scale demonstration of plug nozzle intended for the podded JY93 test installation under the B-58. (also seen in the Flickr "thread"). The YJ93 pod is too short to house a JY93 with an afterburner installed; indeed I doubt that the B-58 had sufficient fuel to support the YJ93 in sustained afterburning operation. I think that the plug nozzle allowed a means to have a short, roughly constant diameter pod whithout a conventional tapered tailcone or the attendant base drag penalty.

see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5264358660/sizes/l/in/photostream/

All this became moot when the B-58/YJ93 airborne test program was canceled as the entire B-70 program was successively defunded and stretched.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[sferrin]

Wow, these (and the rest of the early '60s photos) are wonderful! Particularly the the B-58/YJ93 pod!

What we are looking at is (as mentioned above) is a plug nozzle. I do not know if it was first developed first on the rocket side or the jet engine side in the mid-fifties, but this technology became publicized in the late 50s/early 60s in concepts for non-afterburning/supersonic jet engine applications. They were illustrated on J58 derivatives for advanced B-58s, for example. For all of the media exposure, the only production installation that I can think of was on the J52 when installed on the USAF GAM-77/AGM-28 Hound Dog cruise missile.

IIRC some of the jet powered Russian anti-ship missiles have plug nozzles as do the cores of several high-bypass engines I can think of on commercial airliners.

 

[circle-5]

Also from N747GE, this F4H with nozzle plug.

 

[Deino]

Also from N747GE, this F4H with nozzle plug.

Not sure if this wasn't actually a different engine !? ???

Here are two more.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5500422668/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5500422502/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/n747ge/5263724609/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Deino

 

[OM]

I found this amongst some transparencies for a overhead projector. I tried scanning like a negative with blah results then tried it with a sheet of white paper and was much happier with the results.

...The second try is the correct method for scanning transparencies, although YMMV where using a gloss or flat white paper stock is used. It depends on the scanner being used, so I recommend trying with both and see which one works best with your particular scanner.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From a huge list of F-4 models in http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks/McDonnell%20Model%20Numbers%20List.pdf a few interesting ones.


98CK F4H/ADC Advanced Interceptor with AN/ASG-18, 2 GAR-9, F4H wing with widened center section, F4H tail, longer (69ft 10in) fuselage, J93 engines (1960)
98CN F-4H/ADC Phantom IIG Advanced Interceptor with AN/ASG-18 - wing and tail area inceased 20%, longer fuselage, two primary GAR-9, one alternate GAR-9, J93-MJ 252F engines. b) a 4 GAR-9 variant. (1960)
98CP Phantom IIF, as above with J58 engines (1960)
98CR Phantom IID, TF10A-20 engine (1960)
98CS Phantom IIE, J52 engine (1960)
98CX F4H with 700W Hughes coherent pulse-doppler radar, GAR-9. (1961)
98CY F4H with WECO 2000W coherent pulse-doppler radar (2 target track capability), 2 x Eagle AAMs, 6 in nose extension. (1961)
98CZ F4H, WECO 2000W coherent pulse-doppler radar, Hawk (Kestrel) missile system. (1961)
98DD Improved F4H with 700W Hughes coherent pulse-doppler radar, GAR-9 (1961)
98DO Improved F-4C with ASG-18, 4 GAR-9, TF-30 turbofan engines. (1963)
98FG F-4B VERY ADVANCED - 600 sq ft wing area with slats and double slot flaps, 119 sq ft tail area, AWG-10 with multishot Sparrow & Phoenix, SPARM. Nose lengthened 18", aft lengthened. (1964)
98FH As above with TF-30 engines (1964)
98FI As above with RB168-25R engines (1964)
98FVS Variable sweep, medium high wing (1966)
98KU Navy advanced interceptor, F-4J modified AWG-10, Sparrow III and AIM-47 (1967)
98LD/LE/LF F-4J with AWG-9, Phoenix (1967)
98LK F-4J with enlarged wing, Phoenix (1968)
98LL/LM/LN F-4J with AWG-10, Phoenix (1968)
98MC F-4 for ADC, AWG-9 or ASG-18, AIM-47B (1968)
98MQ F-4E with F-15 systems (1969)
98MS F-4E with F-15 wing (1969)

 

[Pioneer]

Hey great and interesting find Overscan!!

It would be very interesting to find some McDonnell / McDonnell Douglas drawings of these design proposals!!

Thanks for sharing

Regards
Pioneer

 

[fightingirish]

Great and interesting find Overscan!

Pioneer, Models 98FZ and 98GA mentioned and shown at post #52.

 

[AAAdrone]

F-4J with AWG-9 and Phoenix? That would have been interesting. Wonderful find Overscan.

 

[Stargazer]

Folks, the find is NOT overscan's. The McDonnell list was provided to overscan and myself (maybe some others too?) by another forum member a few months ago on condition that it remain unpublished until we had the go-ahead. I never published it myself, not having received the go-ahead. I believe overscan must have been allowed to link it at last.