But the helicopter does not act alone, and the submarine does. The main mission of the helicopter is to detect the submarine and if it can, attack it, but the rest of the weapon system, destroyers, frigates, even aircraft carriers also have long-range anti-submarine weapons that only need to know the position of the target to act.
Submarine-Launched Ship-To-Air Missiles
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Destroyers and frigates doesn’t really have long range anti submarine weapons. Take for example: typical destroyer such as Arleigh Burke class only carry following anti submarine weapons:
Light weight torpedo: Mark 46 , Mark 50, Mark 54 torpedo ( not a single one of them can go further than 15 km)
Rocket assissted torpedo: RUM-139 VL-ASROC (this one can’t go further than 22 km).
That is well within the range of anti ship missile on submarine. If any destroyer or frigate get close enough to use their anti submarine weapons then they are probably already submarine’s food.
Long range anti submarine weapons on aircraft carrrier are their anti submarine helicopter and fighter jet. Helicopter are vulnerable to SAM while fighter jet can’t even carry torpedo. The only kind of anti submarine weapons these F-18 can carry are the quick strike bottom mines. If these submarine move even as little as 30-40 meters aways, these mine are kinda useless
dumpster4
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That Time Russia Wanted Own IDAS Missile Analog For Submarines, and How the Project Ended
"Simultaneously with the evolution of anti-submarine helicopters, nations across the world, including the USSR and later the russian federation, were actively invested in the development of countermeasures. But in russia, this effort came down to not just a few failed projects but became a whole chronicle of conceptual degradation that is worth a closer look into."
See:
en.defence-ua.com
"Simultaneously with the evolution of anti-submarine helicopters, nations across the world, including the USSR and later the russian federation, were actively invested in the development of countermeasures. But in russia, this effort came down to not just a few failed projects but became a whole chronicle of conceptual degradation that is worth a closer look into."
See:
That Time russia Wanted Own IDAS Missile Analog For Submarines, and How the Project Ended | Defense Express
The russians' attempts to create their own air defense missile for submarines like the German IDAS represent a true chronicle of degradation
en.defence-ua.com
Scott Kenny
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That actually makes sense for the Soviet/Russian side. All their small SAMs are command guided, so they can't just make a "SLAMRAAM". The better option for them would have been starting from their MANPADS, like the UK did with Blowpipe.That Time Russia Wanted Own IDAS Missile Analog For Submarines, and How the Project Ended
"Simultaneously with the evolution of anti-submarine helicopters, nations across the world, including the USSR and later the russian federation, were actively invested in the development of countermeasures. But in russia, this effort came down to not just a few failed projects but became a whole chronicle of conceptual degradation that is worth a closer look into."
See:
That Time russia Wanted Own IDAS Missile Analog For Submarines, and How the Project Ended | Defense Express
The russians' attempts to create their own air defense missile for submarines like the German IDAS represent a true chronicle of degradation
To be fair, now that I think about it, wouldn’t group of small drones with magnetic anomaly detector or LIDAR sensor find a submarine quicker than sonobouys?
Isn’t there some submarine with sonar range on order of thounsand km?
New submarine in a class of its own - BBC News
The BBC's Caroline Wyatt is given an in-depth look at the Royal Navy's newest, most powerful attack submarine
www.bbc.com
dumpster4
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It's been looked into. But I'm not sure if the Navy's procured any:
"U.S. military researchers are asking industry to develop a small unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) equipped with a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) that can deploy from the U.S. Navy P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to detect and track enemy submarines.
Officials of the Washington Headquarters Services Acquisition Directorate in Arlington, Va., issued a request for white papers on Tuesday (HQ0034-19-RWP-SCO1) for phase one of the MAD UAV prototype project."
See:
Industry asked to develop magnetic anomaly detector (MAD)-equipped UAV for anti-submarine warfare (ASW)
Project seeks to launch a 36-pound, 90-knot UAV with magnetometer from a P-8A aircraft, with 45-minute endurance, to detect submarine-sized targets.
Scott Kenny
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MAD and LIDAR are both short ranged.
You use sonobuoys to figure out where to run a MAD pass.
LIDAR is only capable of detecting a ship within about 100m of the surface, for the most deeply-penetrating light frequency.
I know they are both short ranged but they don’t need to dip into water to find submarine, which mean they can be put on drone to scan a large area very quickly. Let say a normal sonobuoys can detect a submarine within radius of 10 km, if you drop 24 of them on the sea surface, you can cover an area of 7536 square kilometer assuming there is no overlapped area between sonobouys. Now assuming similar situation but we use drones with MAD or LIDAR sensor instead. Let say the detection radius of MAD sensor is only 1 km. The drone can travel 400 km. If you launch 24 drones, then you can search for submarine for an area of 19200 square kilometers.
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The nice thing about sonobuoys is that they are persistent. You lay a line of buoys and it can last for several hours. It can also track a sub moving across its coverage area.
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Passive sonar has a theoretically unlimited range against a sufficiently loud target. But to envisage how loud a submarine isn't, imagine trying to pinpoint someone's fridge, from outside the house, by the noise it makes.Isn’t there some submarine with sonar range on order of thounsand km?
New submarine in a class of its own - BBC News
The BBC's Caroline Wyatt is given an in-depth look at the Royal Navy's newest, most powerful attack submarine
You can safely ignore basically anything in the non-specialist media about the performance of sensor systems.
Submarines have this dastardly habit of moving. If a sonobuoy can detect everything within a certain range (big 'if', but let's take it), then a line of sonobuoys across the line of advance is an effective barrier. The submarine either has to go through it, and be detected, or go around it.
A good wet team will have anticipated 'go around' and have a plan to catch the boat if they try, but that'll take them a long time if the line has been placed well.
A similar number of drones with a significantly smaller detection radius has a much greater chance of letting the submarine leak through, simply by not being there at the right time. If you're using non-acoustic sensors, the boat can theoretically blast through at 30 knots. If the MAD or LIDAR has an effective range one-tenth that of the acoustics, you need to guarantee a first-pass detection while you're travelling at 300 knots, even with an optimal search pattern.
Maybe you can do that. But I'm not betting on it. If you want to catch a submarine at range, acoustics are the way to go. You can then localise it for attack in all sorts of ways.
In fact, the classical Cold War airborne ASW approach would be to use SOSUS to cue the MPA to the submarine location, passive buoys to detect, active buoys to localise for attack, then MAD to release the weapon at the optimum time.
Best thing about jet aircraft for ASW? No propeller tonals to warn them you're coming.
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Except that the detection range for either LIDAR or MAD is more like 100m. At max.
MAD and LIDAR are the "there is 100% a submarine RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW, drop an expensive weapon on them!" tool, not the tools to say "there is a submarine in the Straits of Juan de Fuca. Somewhere."
I found some source indicate that MAD detection range could be about 500-1200 meters
Methods of Differential Submarine Detection Based on Magnetic Anomaly and Technology of Probes Arrangement | Atlantis Press
Magnetic anomaly submarine detection methods detect submarines by the additional magnetic field generated by the ferromagnetic shell. Using a single magnetic measurement probe to detect submarines has difficult to overcome the background signal interference of geomagnetic field. So, this paper...
www.atlantis-press.com
If the vertical distance between the submarine and the aircraft is 400 meters then the detection range can be as low as 100-150 meters, however, as vertical distance is 200 meters then the detection range can be as far as 800 meters. A low flying drone would have quite decent detection radius I think
I know submarine are quiet, I'm just talking about how far submarine can detect a surface fleet with its sonar to release anti ship missile
Sosus seem to have pretty insane range
Isn't jet a lot louder than a helicopter?Best thing about jet aircraft for ASW? No propeller tonals to warn them you're coming.
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It's called the Deep Sound Channel, you can literally hear the right sounds on the far side of the planet. They bounce back and forth as if this sound channel was a fiber optic.
Yes, but all the energy is at higher frequencies. And high frequencies don't carry very far. Low frequencies will carry into the deep sound channel.
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In both contexts, detection and engagement are two different matters. The long-range sensors are only accurate enough to say 'it's over there somewhere'. To actually engage a target, you need to confirm what it is you're shooting at, and exactly where it is.
Firing off AShMs at 100 miles is extremely ill advised short of World War 3. There's a very high risk that they're going to find an unsuspecting Bulgarian grain carrier and obliterate it instead.
The better missiles can (a) delay seeker activation until they reach the target area and (b) be programmed to look for a specific target. But the target area is necessarily quite large, and from some aspects it's difficult to distinguish ships from one another.
How deep is the submarine you're trying to detect? How low can you fly the drone, noting open ocean wave heights?
400 metres vertical separation is not a large number in this context.
You don't even need to be a submariner to recognise this. A P-3 is an awful lot louder than a Nimrod or P-8 once they've finished climbing. And the less said about helicopters the better.
I’m thinking about somewhere like the baltic sea where the depth is not very big. Never the less, as I understand it. If the submarine is below the thermal line then the sonobouys is useless anyway.
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Definitely can attest to this. In an airshow I could hear Mi-8s much further away as well as Flankers right overhead.
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What if the Debye effect is used?
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Not necessarily, because sonobuoys can be set up to run deep instead of shallow.
Well, at least the ~200ft thermocline. I've had times when we've found a deeper thermocline, 500+ft down, and those may be easier to use to hide from sonobuoys.
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It doesn't sound like that has been developed into a functional system. Yet.
500ft is still only 150 meters deep. So that what I mean when I said if vertical separation is greater than 200 meters, then it is likely that the submarine is below thermoline and thefore invisible to sonobouys anyways
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There are sonobuoys available which carry 1,000 feet of cable for the hydrophones.
Once again - how high is your drone flying?
FWIW, my preferred use case for drones in area ASW is as relocateable, recoverable sonobuoys. The sensor package is well within what a drone can carry.
Like 10-15 meters sbove sea surface, like a sea skimming supersonic antiship missile (brahmos and the likes)
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15m/50ft is really not how close you want to be to the sea surface. 100-200ft is better.
For manned aircraft maybe. But drone are expendable, beside, sea skimming anti ship missile can cruise even lower so 15 meters is ok for a drone I think
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Sea skimming missiles accept the risks of impacting the sea to avoid the target's radar.
Drones don't need to avoid the submarine's radar, so can operate at a height of greater safety from rogue waves.
I see your point, but maybe lower altitude could be used in calm sea.
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Not just rogue waves, but also unexpected winds, obstacles (ships, offshore structures, birds) and the likes. You could put obstacle detection and avoidance on your drone. But if you've got a sensor with an effective range measured in the low hundreds of metres, deviating from your search pattern will leave a sizeable gap. As will losing the drone.
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Not worth it, IMO. Fly that LIDAR or MAD search at 100 or 200 ft like the manual says.
Interesting idea , but the thing that makes me think acoustics is better in addition to what others have said re persistence, is this, as I understand MAD will tell you something with a large magnetic signature is down there, however a passive sonobuouy will give a good operator much more information about WHAT is down there, ie a MAD contact might be a enemy submarine, but it equally might be a shipwreck or a even an allied submarine.
On the otherhand a sonobuoy will allow an operator to listen to the acoustic signature and compare that to a library of threats.
Regards
Butch
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Must be a typo on both charts 10MT lines, it's the same ranges as the 1MT lines.
But that does roughly track in terms of how yield going up by an order of magnitude doesn't increase kill range by an order of magnitude.
(Edit: of course it doesn't, the volume of a sphere is a cube function, so kill radius should go up with the cube root of the increase. Cube root of 10 is 2.1544...
So those two lines should be:
Permit class: 11,546 for 90%, 15,609 for 50%
Mike class: 5308 for 90% 7215 for 50%
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