Where all the fuss about Nazi UFOs started?

[J.A.W.]

This interesting & well researched document shows the extent of ex-Nazi employment post-war.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/ciacovenant_washington.pdf

If the likes of SS Muller (ex-Gestapo chief) could be secretly employed, then mayhaps Dr Kammler too?

On pages 148-151 it mentions (non-technical specific) knowledge of ex-Nazi flying discs,
& states that even then, very secret 'black' projects with covert budgets were afoot..

 

[J.A.W.]

Interview with Nick Cook - including the thread subject, ( @ 22min) & Dr Kammler (@ 33min).

http://www.americanantigravity.com/news/space/nick-cook-on-the-hunt-for-zero-point.html

 

[J.A.W.]

W.R. Dornberger info, - from when he was held by the Brits for investigation into war-crime..

http://www.specialcamp11.co.uk/Generalmajor_Dr_Walter_Dornberger.htm

Is his anti-Kammler remark actually an example of 'Brer Rabbit - briar patch'/disingenuous Nazi cunning?

 

[J.A.W.]

Recent review of Operation Paperclip book written by Annie Jacobsen.

http://www.popmatters.com/review/180251-operation-paperclip-by-annie-jacobsen/

Is an author - with a history of publishing dubious findings - per se untrustworthy?

Or simply needful of a thorough fact-check vetting/appraisal?

 

[Jemiba]

At least the last point shouldn't be forgotten, I think. It should never be forgotten, of course,
no matter what the source is, but here it's needed even more, than usual.
Looking at the titles Annie Jacobson published still yet, she seems to love themes, that guarantee
high sales figures in certain circles. That's not reprehensible, every market needs its suppliers.
It's just a question, if staying to known and proven facts isn't often contradicting sales figures...

 

[J.A.W.]

Here is a compendium of published sources on the subject..

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects77.htm

Bullshit or not - as ever - is the question..

 

[J.A.W.]

Having spent a bit of time 'shuffling the pack' thread subject-wise as it were - lately..

- IMO the contribution of former Nazi scientists to the post-war progress of aero-space certainly compensates
for the 'excesses' of their work for political masters, of any ilk , & especially since the likelihood of actual
'criminal' recidivism appears conspicuously absent from the record.

An object lesson in the lack of subjective morality in science -perhaps, but the same must surely apply to..
- Dr Manhattan..

To now attempt a 'black spot' application ex-postfacto seems churlish indeed..

 

[Jemiba]

Looking for moral in sciences probably is a very hard undertaking. Accusing scientists for
having worked for the wrong masters probably is hard, too, there often may have been
the excuse of "having been forced". But for example Wernher von Braun was blamed not
only for knowing, where a very great part of the workforce the V2-program came from, but
actually participating in their exploitation, enslavement and so in their intended "obliteration
by work" !
Speaking generally of "compensation" for all those German scientists here means walking on
very thin ice indeed, to my opinion.

 

[J.A.W.]

Regarding the merits of science for its own sake, or life-career projects that are political backing based..

..such as W. von Braun..
.. or the compelled ex-Junkers team producing giant turbo-shaft aero-engines for the USSR..

..are something -& complaints of US/USSR hegemony causing a German/European 'brain-drain' are another.

& then there is the dreaded 'mad scientist/ideologue' archetype, viz, E. Teller.. or this guy..

"Gee I wish we had one of them Doomsday machines..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yfXgu37iyI

 

[J.A.W.]

This 'History' channel doco gives unequivocal 'thanks' to W. von Braun for his indefatigable rocketeering..

Has anyone here read/heard the story that the sensationally close pass of the Earth-orbit crossing asteroid
Hermes in 1937 - prompted Adolf Hitler's interest in a method of meteoric strike prevention - so as to remove
that potential risk - to his planned "Thousand Year Reich", & that this was a spur to A4 development?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5iXkmgEShI

 

[J.A.W.]

This`70s Sci-Fi show features a plot whereby a 'Bad'(Nazi-type) scientist -'Dr Queller' gets to redeem himself.
& ironically, by heroic self-sacrifice against an implacable alien enemy who demands unconditional submission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqlPkZZ8Zxo

- I wonder if Dr Kammler was still alive to see this & have a chuckle to himself..

"May I resume my work?"

 

[J.A.W.]

This site gives a continuum of views on the thread subject..

http://boyerwrites.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/what-happened-to-ss-general-hans-kammler/

 

[J.A.W.]

Well, it seems Wikileaks has located a fair few US files on 'missing/forgotten/ignored' Nazi-linked identities,
- including SS Muller & Dr Kammler..

https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/10/1048915_-fwd-army-investigative-files-.html

These are just the Army holdings..

 

[Jemiba]

This site gives a continuum of views on the thread subject..

http://boyerwrites.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/what-happened-to-ss-general-hans-kammler/

" ...No one was to know the secrets of the anti-gravity machine that was being tested. To be certain of this Gen. Kammler
had a number of his top ranking scientists put to death. They were not going to tell anyone anything that had been discovered."

Shouldn't be too hard to find out the names of those "top ranking scientists", I think. Quite probably we would only have to look
for physicists or chemists, but not for botanists, theologists or the like ..... And "top ranking" at least implies, that they were experienced,
knowledgable and probably internationally well accepted even before the war. Such scientists don't get their knowledge in just
a few years. And then, such scientists don't pass away unnoticed, or at least would have been missed after the war...

A good example, to my opinion, that those believing in "Nazi super technology" generally aren't digging too deep, because
their believe could be damaged !

 

[J.A.W.]

Indeed J, - however, there are various sensitive WW2 files that remain sealed, including those bound under Britain's infamous '100 year rule' - if any of us are still interested by 2045, then maybe we'll find out for sure..

Obviously it would still be politically embarrassing today - if it was publically admitted that the likes of known
serious 'war criminals' SS Muller & Dr Kammler ( although oddly, they weren't indicted or tried in absentia..)
were - in fact secretly employed/protected for decades post-war, under a form of 'witness protection program'..

 

[JFC Fuller]

This is one of the multiple places where these silly wunderwaffe stories fall down. Keeping Kammler in "witness protection" would serve little purpose as he himself would have had little useful information. His doctorate was in civil engineering which he had mostly applied to a job in a local building administration before becoming an administrator within the SS. He would have had little practical knowledge of any wunderwaffe programmes beyond their existence and roughly what they were. Those of use would have been the "top ranking scientists" who as Jemiba points out would have been world leading and therefore relatively easy to identify.

The obvious conclusion of what happened to Kammler, given his blood-soaked involvement in the concentration camp system and probably dubious mental state, is that he ended up in an anonymous grave in May 1945- either by suicide or enemy action. It was reported last year that documentary evidence had emerged that Muller ultimately ended up in a mass grave in Berlin and it seems most logical that something similar happened to Kammler in Prague.

 

[J.A.W.]

& yet perhaps the silliest wunderwaffen extenuation would be the use of the NASA ex-Nazi contingent as
'cover' for the staging of the 'faked' moon landings?

Those seeking to slip any Dr Kammler deal under the radar/carpet would use JFCF's argument verbatim,
- but the actual facts indeed - still remain elusive..

 

[JFC Fuller]

His body and precise cause of death may be elusive but the history of his life is not, it is fact that he was a rather unimpressive civil engineer who took administrative roles within the SS- he would have been of little use if one wanted to actually complete a wunderwaffe programme.

 

[J.A.W.]

JFCF, that would be a good example of a - 'sweep under the carpet' - dismissal of Dr Kammler..

Perhaps one which would suit a 'meh' response to inquiry as to any deep, dark ( & 'dirty') collaboration..

Certainly Hitler was impressed by Dr Kammler's drive, understanding, & grasp of his responsibilities..

The W. Dornberger interrogation reports hold some clue to it, & the photo of Dr's Dornberger & von Braun
proudly/smugly sporting their high grade Iron Cross awards granted for their 'wunderwaffen' A4/V2/IRBM
& its futuristically violent & upsettingly unstoppable (W. Churchill wanted to unleash Anthrax as retribution) bombardment of London, is also somewhat telling, IMO..

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Mmm, Churchill was pushing for the use of gas, indeed the 'cylinders' were moved to the
forward staging areas, for both RAF and USAAF squadrons, the orders to flight crew were prepared
and all it would have taken was giving the order to load the aircraft. The Americans, however, had
grave doubts about the advisability of gas terror attacks on German cities and it's unknown if they
would have followed orders.

 

[J.A.W.]

AFAIR, Churchill was only talked out of the Anthrax option when it was pointedly shown that it would be as lethal to the Allied occupation forces as to the Germans themselves..

& as for toxic gas, the serious collateral damage done by Allied mustard gas stock piles - hit by the proficient
Luftwaffe bombing of the base in Bari Italy - Dec `43 - was hushed up for many years, under tight security..

 

[J.A.W.]

Mmm, Churchill was pushing for the use of gas, indeed the 'cylinders' were moved to the
forward staging areas, for both RAF and USAAF squadrons, the orders to flight crew were prepared
and all it would have taken was giving the order to load the aircraft. The Americans, however, had
grave doubts about the advisability of gas terror attacks on German cities and it's unknown if they
would have followed orders.

Followed whose orders?

AFAIR, the period joke ran..

"The Yanks are overpaid, oversexed, & over here.."

& drew the inevitable riposte,

"The Brits are underpaid, undersexed, & under Eisenhower.."

 

[J.A.W.]

Here, some colourful - (>% B.S.?)- Dr Kammler C.V.-type bumf..

http://thewebfairy.com/911/missilegate/rfz/swaz/chapter6.htm

 

[JFC Fuller]

JFCF, that would be a good example of a - 'sweep under the carpet' - dismissal of Dr Kammler..

Perhaps one which would suit a 'meh' response to inquiry as to any deep, dark ( & 'dirty') collaboration..

Certainly Hitler was impressed by Dr Kammler's drive, understanding, & grasp of his responsibilities..

The W. Dornberger interrogation reports hold some clue to it, & the photo of Dr's Dornberger & von Braun
proudly/smugly sporting their high grade Iron Cross awards granted for their 'wunderwaffen' A4/V2/IRBM
& its futuristically violent & upsettingly unstoppable (W. Churchill wanted to unleash Anthrax as retribution) bombardment of London, is also somewhat telling, IMO..

No, its an analysis of facts. Von Braun was useful because of his technical knowledge, Kammler wasn't.

 

[J.A.W.]

No, its an analysis of facts. Von Braun was useful because of his technical knowledge, Kammler wasn't.
[/quote]






JFCF, if you are able, can you kindly post factual data/analysis/appraisal - supportive of this view..

 

[J.A.W.]

For US/post-war values placed on ex-Nazi data/meta-analysis/command awareness - refer post #40 this topic..

 

[J.A.W.]

Even Hollywood has produced movies that portray the time-honoured US principle of 'business first' dealing being
extended to SS operatives, ( see 'Kelly's Heroes' & 'Inglorious Basterds')..

& don't mention the `60s Star Trek - Nazi Planet episode..

 

[Arjen]

From what I have read, Kammler was a civil-engineer-turned-project-administrator. According to the linked document -

http://thewebfairy.com/911/missilegate/rfz/swaz/chapter6.htm

- his engineering skills were expressed in 'a brilliant hand-colored design for the Auschwitz concentration camp' and 'Later he was called in to advise on the modalities for boosting the daily output of its gas chambers from 10,000 to 60,000'.

I doubt, if he had survived the war, whether Kammler's skills as a death camp designer would have been much called for.

 

[JFC Fuller]

JFCF, if you are able, can you kindly post factual data/analysis/appraisal - supportive of this view..

Go and read about his career, he was an admin guy, a civil engineer by training with an SS role that was admin based which is why he climbed to the heights that he did- culminating in being a candidate to replace Goering as head of the Luftwaffe, a role he probably would have gotten had he not disappeared. The best description of him I have seen is that he was the SS version of Albert Speer, one of his final undertakings being the transference of the wunderwaffen teams to the Alpine Redoubt- Von Braun probably being the last person of note to see him alive. He was an ops manager, not part of the R&D staff, so would have had little to offer and a lot to be prosecuted for, especially due to his roles at Auschwitz and Warsaw.

 

[J.A.W.]

From what I have read, Kammler was a civil-engineer-turned-project-administrator. According to the linked document -

http://thewebfairy.com/911/missilegate/rfz/swaz/chapter6.htm

- his engineering skills were expressed in 'a brilliant hand-colored design for the Auschwitz concentration camp' and 'Later he was called in to advise on the modalities for boosting the daily output of its gas chambers from 10,000 to 60,000'.

I doubt, if he had survived the war, whether Kammler's skills as a death camp designer would have been much called for.

Indeed not, however that inconveniently ideological/political part of his portfolio might well have been 'overlooked' ( albeit kept on the QT) - given his micro-management skills & knowledge of manifold other
ultra-modern methods of delivering death, - which may well have been deemed useful/needful by US forces,
- for the new & futuristic, if pending - 'cold-war'..

As the likes of General Lemay & his administrative logistician McNamara were honest enough to admit,
the only thing that divided them from those deemed 'war-criminals' - was success in winning the war..

 

[J.A.W.]

JFCF, if you are able, can you kindly post factual data/analysis/appraisal - supportive of this view..

Go and read about his career, he was an admin guy, a civil engineer by training with an SS role that was admin based which is why he climbed to the heights that he did- culminating in being a candidate to replace Goering as head of the Luftwaffe, a role he probably would have gotten had he not disappeared. The best description of him I have seen is that he was the SS version of Albert Speer, one of his final undertakings being the transference of the wunderwaffen teams to the Alpine Redoubt- Von Braun probably being the last person of note to see him alive. He was an ops manager, not part of the R&D staff, so would have had little to offer and a lot to be prosecuted for, especially due to his roles at Auschwitz and Warsaw.

& yet no indictment, prosecution, guilty finding in absentia (unlike Bormann) or unrelenting hunt (like Eichmann).
But either blase` dismissal of concern, or deeply suppressed/unavailable/missing files.. Strange..

As to his grip on the sophistication of technicalities 'wunderwaffen'-wise, even the notoriously shifty
Dr Dornberger 'complained' that Dr Kammler's pedantic technical level micro-management was intense..

Again, JFCF, feel free to post data supportive of your Kammler minimalisation contention..

 

[Arjen]

It is notoriously difficult to prove the non-existence of imaginary hidden stuff.

How about providing some proof for Kammler's postwar career?

 

[J.A.W.]

Aha, the $64,000 question, & given the balance of probabilities, who would bet against it?

As noted, perhaps sealed files opened in the future may be available to confirm such issues..

Also note, the '100 year rule' for files relating to WW1 issues of concern, say - Lusitania sinking - will be
coming up fairly soon, & recall how the revelation of the 'Ultra' decoding secret was a big deal, back in the day..

 

[Jemiba]

Honestly I cannot see real "Kammler minimalisation contention" in this thread. Nowadays he would get
a seat in the "upper management" as a "manager of production" or something like that. And his involvement
in Nazi crimes put aside, I don't have many doubts, that his form of management was effectice, at least
for the then current German standards. But in many ways those standards were behind the US ones, so
I really cannot see reasons, why his post-war collaboration could have been of much interest.

 

[Arjen]

...his form of management was effectice, at least for the then current German standards. But in many ways those standards were behind the US ones, so I really cannot see reasons, why his post-war collaboration could have been of much interest.

Exactly.

 

[J.A.W.]

Dr Kammler may well have had what the US forces wanted, a massive data cache, both hard-copy
& memorised - & personnel-wise, who to grab, or stop the USSR from grabbing, .. enough to cut a deal..

If it worked for Wolff, Muller & Gehlen..

 

[JFC Fuller]

Data has already been posted, you just keep ignoring it. He was not a a scientist and had no specialist technical knowledge unless death camp construction was your intention.

Kammler did not have the seniority or role of either Borman or Eichmann. His role in the Holocaust, whilst particularly barbaric, was not as substantial as others. He may have improved the efficiency of the death camps but he didn't have the organisational role that Eichmann did. Kammlers seniority came much later in the war and even then was industrial. Every piece of evidence that exists for his fate points to him being dead, the stories may contradict each other but they all have the same conclusion. Its hard to relentlessly pursue someone when there is no evidence they are even alive. Eichmann was pursued because evidence emerged that he was alive.

 

[JFC Fuller]

This getting ridiculous now.

Muller almost certainly died in 1945 and ended up in a mass grave in Berlin, documentary evidence was reportedly found last year to support this.

Gehlen was a Wehrmacht intelligence officer focussed on operational intelligence of Soviet forces and had a relatively sympathetic approach to those not sold on Nazism.

Wolff seemingly had no detailed role in the Holocaust and, compared to many of his compatriots, was enthusiastic about ending the war.

None of them compare to the death camp designing, Warsaw Ghetto demolishing, slave labourer executing Kammler.

He had nothing to offer, those who did were the likes of von Braun, not the ops managers.

 

[J.A.W.]

It seems JFCF -that perhaps you are trying to get a lock put on an other-wise interesting thread?

I have posted links (selected to weed out the obviously deranged, or ludicrous) that have contained relevant data.

Your emotive-seeming* determination to cement your perceived view, sans actual data links is not comparable.

*..."getting ridiculous"

Dr Kammler & SS Muller both, very likely held data & expertise that was of great interest to US forces.

Sure, they were just too 'dirty' politically to be acknowledged.. .. it does not necessarily follow that they were
not cut a deal..

Speer, & Wolff escaped the rope, openly, as did Dornberger (just) while von Braun got US honours..

 

[Arjen]

Speer, with all his organisational talents, spent more than twenty years in jail. A lesser talent like Kammler, guilty of war crimes, would have been lucky to escape a death sentence.

Dr Kammler & SS Muller both, very likely held data & expertise that was of great interest to US forces.

'very likely' just is not good enough. What-is-your-proof in Kammler's case?

Kammler was a project administrator - of which the Allies had plenty - and a death camp designer - of which the Allies judged the world had a surplus.