Where all the fuss about Nazi UFOs started?

[theponja]

First I've to say I perfectly know all this fuss about Nazi Flying saucers is fantasy. This is why I posting this in the bar.
We're very aware or origins for another fantasy planes, as example the Japanese Suzukaze 20 which was originated in the amateur designs from a magazine.
So because I've "flying" one as an April Fool's joke in World of Warplanes I'm curious.

My questions is: Does anyone know the source for all this? Some author put some obscure picture on a book and talk about flying saucers? Someone found an obscure reference in German archives to "disk" plane? Of course I've tried in the web but now is very difficult to separate fiction of reality.

 

[J.A.W.]

Check SS Kammler, or see if you can find the archived interrogation reports of Dornberger et al..

 

[J.A.W.]

Or look up 'Operation Paperclip' whereby W. von Braun was rehabilitated from Nazi SS officer to US citizen.
H. Kammler was very probably too 'dirty' to be publically acknowledged in this way.

However, when did the Area 51/'deep black' stuff start?

Here is a memo from USAAF Air Materiel Command which lays out what is known - at their security level..

http://www.brycezabel.com/files/twiningmemo1947-afterdisclosure.pdf

 

[Jemiba]

To my opinion there are several combined reasons:
- The UFO-hype from the '40s/'50s, more or less a US phenomenon, I think.
- The knowledge, that quite a number of Nazis, including some high-ranking ones had fled Germany at the end of the war
and were still alive
- The vast number of German projects, that had come to light after the war, including all those based on hearsay and
exaggerated claims only and that had seed the believe of a "superior Nazi technology".
- The actual use of German knowledge with regards to aerodynamics and rocketry, coupled with the fear, that this knowledge
was used by other nations, mainly the SU, too, and the prominent position of some Germans serving in the US then.
So it will be hard to find a single "source", as it may have went the way : "UFOs -> Russian ? -> Martian ? ->Nazi ?!", with the
latter one probably the hardest to prove, but so the hardest to deny, too.

 

[Michel Van]

The case began back in 1947
Robert A Heinlein novel "Rocket Ship Galileo" 1947
Here group of Americans reach moon with a rocket and find …a Nazi Base on moon !

in 1950s with began rumors about advanced Nazi Weapon systems, like flying disk.
based happened bad translation of interrogation from High rank Nazi, ho had no technical education, who try to explain Top secrets technological projects
Italian Professor Giuseppe Belluzzo (high rank under Mussolini regime) claimed that Third Reich work on several Disk aircraft projects from 1942 on.
in same time Austrians tabloids claim discovery of Disk shape machines in quarry all over Austria but with out conclusiveness.

In 1960 the french book "Le Matin des Magiciens" was publish, it's esoteric rubbish about Aliens from space there connection to the Vril Society of Berlin and Nazis.
here wis have the first claim of UFO build by Nazi

in 1970s German Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel publish under pseudonyms Christof Friedrich and Mattern Friedrich.
more esoteric rubbish about Nazi Base under South pole or Hollow earth and there the Nazi building a fleet of Nazi Ufos to conquer the World….

In 1978 Miguel Serrano, a Chilean diplomat and Nazi sympathizer, published El Cordón Dorado: Hitlerismo Esotérico [The Golden Thread: Esoteric Hitlerism].
that tops everything on esoteric rubbish : Hitler as Avatar of god Vishnu, he waiting with Hyperborean gods in an underground Antarctic base in New Swabia.
to conquer the World with fleet of Nazi UFOs, if the star are in right position (Cthulhu has now hell a copy right issue with Hitler !)

2012 a group of finnish filmmaker make the mother of all Nazi UFO movies IRON SKY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV0F-T-erjM

 

[archipeppe]

There were several reasons for the birth of the "Nazi UFO myth":


1) During the final phases of the WWII German aircraf designers explored (and sometime realized) a lot of unconventional designs that become of public domain after the war


2) The so called "wunderwaffen", especially V1 and V2 themselves fueled the myth


3) Public imagination after the War, endorsed by some ruthless reporter seeking for an easy scoop, had the feeling that Germans during the War toyed with strange or exotic technologies and they could do virtually everything they want included "flying saucers"(we know that German technology was in line with their times).


4) Indeed some minor German Designer like Arthur Sack with his AS-5 and AS-6 V1 realized, unsucessfully, some disk shaped aircraft and this fact added some realistic element to the "Nazi UFO myth" (this fact it was not so uncommon considering that at the same time Chance Vought was realizing the V-173 and the XF5U...).

 

[Foxglove]

Most of the stuff about Nazi UFOs is probably rubbish, but there are some buts, e.g. Kammler received the title: 'Fuhrer's plenipotentiary for nuclear-powered, remote-controlled weapons( lenk waffen) and aircraft. ' Nuclear-powered' here also applies to aircraft, which must raise eyebrows as there are no records left of actual designs using atom to power aerial vehicles. Polish writer Witkowski suggests that this might be a misnomer, as by nuclear( atomaren) the Nazis actually meant here research into plasma solitons, irrespective of Heisenberg's, and a multitude of others' work on the conventionally understood nuclear program. A plasma soliton was supposedly generated in the famous die Glocke, manifesting relativistic effects. And don't dismiss this as blabber, check out on prof. Gerlach's field of study.

 

[Avimimus]

What grade are those documents? If I wanted relocation via operation paperclip, forging a couple of fake documents mentioning anything to do with 'atoms' would be an excellent choice in the post Hiroshima & Nagasaki era.

 

[J.A.W.]

What grade are those documents? If I wanted relocation via operation paperclip, forging a couple of fake documents mentioning anything to do with 'atoms' would be an excellent choice in the post Hiroshima & Nagasaki era.

I doubt that 'fake' documents would fool anyone (T-Force-wise) who was charged with a scientific appraisal..
Von Braun got his continuing gig - on the basis of his ongoing benefit - to the U.S. rocket program.

The real question is ( as considered - in the 1947 USAAF AMC memo) when did the highly classified,
covert budget, ' Area 51' type stuff start? & was the 'Space Alien' stuff a cover?

There were reports of 'unofficial' co-trials in New Mexico between the V2 rocketry tech teams
& even more highly secret flying disc units both involving Operation Paperclip ex-Nazis..

 

[J.A.W.]

& 'Foo Fighters' - would be the direct answer to the O.P.' s question, I'd reckon..

 

[J.A.W.]

The U.S. Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (CIOS) was set up in August 1944.

To exploit the assets of Nazi-tech on behalf of the Departments of War, State, Armed services, OSS,
Office of Scientific Research & Development & Foreign Economic Administration.

The Brits wanted a piece of the action too, but cooperation didn't last long after VE-day, & the
U.S. were irritated by the Brits holding on to Dornberger with a view to punishment..

The seemingly odd lack of emphasis on U.S rocket development in the `50s - which allowed the 'Sputnik'
public relations shock to be played out - may be seen as a unintended consequence of a 'shadow' (covert)
program ( high performance ex-Nazi disc tech?) appearing to obviate any real need for chemical rocketry..

The cancellation of high performance winged air & space planes together with the ' Moon Shot' emphasis
in the `60s could be considered in this light too..

There have of course been ongoing rumours of (covert, but Earthling) sophisticated spacefaring capabilities which may have had their genesis in that breakthough Nazi-tech of so many decades ago..

Bullshit or not, as ever - is the question..

 

[Orionblamblam]

Most of the stuff about Nazi UFOs is probably rubbish

Replace "most" with "almost certainly all" and you'll have it.

but there are some buts, e.g. Kammler received the title: 'Fuhrer's plenipotentiary for nuclear-powered, remote-controlled weapons( link waffen) and aircraft. '

Two things here:
1) Did he in fact receive this title, and if so when and by whom
2) If so... so what?

It's hardly news that the Nazis were interested in nuclear power. The concept of nuclear powered flying machines predated WWII, so it's logical to suppose that the Nazis were interested. But NASA is today interested in warp drive, and the CIA is interested in telepathy... being interested, or even running some studies, is not the same as actually knowing just how to accomplish your goal.

Polish writer Witkowski suggests...

The same guy who claims that the concrete pedestal for a water tank was the test stand for the wholly mythical "Die Glocke?" Why give *anything* he says credence? You might as well reference "The Weekly World News."

"The Henge," the supposed test site for "Die Glocke:"


Cooling tower in Poland:

A plasma soliton was supposedly generated in the famous die Glocke,

It also spat out an army of Kate Upton clones, each of whom is programmed to seek out believers n Die Glocke.

Please. If there was *ever* a bit of aerospace histry that everyone with more than half a brain would laugh and yell their cultural equivalent of "BS!" at, it would be "Die Glocke." Sadly, humanity is populated with suckers. Witkowski simply claimed that it existed, and SHAZAM! it existed. Never mind the complete lack of documentary evidence. Never mind the supposed physical evdence turns out to be evidence for something completely different, and entirely mundane. Never mind that all the details that go into the story ("red mercury" and such) are also themselves completely undemonstrated.

No.

Someone nobody ever heard of suddenly produced a story that he can't back up, and all of a sudden, it's accepted as fact. Gah.

Makes me want to go into politics.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Bullshit or not, as ever - is the question..

WRT Nazis and these flying saucers/UFOs/advanced magical tech? Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yVZCVLK3E

 

[J.A.W.]

Yeah .. ok.. then - but just how did those Amazon women get to the moon, if not by Nazi flying disc?

Next - we'll be hearing the 'plate of shrimp' theorist from 'Repo Man'..

 

[theponja]

Very interesting. Seems a combination of sci-fi novels some authors trying to sell "conspiracy" theories was the cause. Thanks a lot everyone to take time to answer the question.

Michael Yes, that was a great movie. I liked it. It's like star-wars nice fantasy

 

[J.A.W.]

Very interesting. Seems a combination of sci-fi novels some authors trying to sell "conspiracy" theories was the cause. Thanks a lot everyone to take time to answer the question.


No, not the cause, (see post#9) so much, more of an effect..

& Charles Bukowski also wrote some pretty entertaining ex-Nazi scientist stories..

 

[Orionblamblam]

Very interesting. Seems a combination of sci-fi novels some authors trying to sell "conspiracy" theories was the cause.

If I remember correctly, the first time a "Nazi Flying Saucer" was described print was in "German Secret Weapons of WWII" by Rudolph Lusar, dating from the mid 1950's. The book made some claims but provided no evidence or references.

 

[J.A.W.]

Probably the grimmest example of 'Nazi UFO' activity..

.. was the 'Scarecrow effect' reported by RAF bomber crews in night action over Germany.

Believed at the time to be a angst-producing pyrotechnical effect - designed to mimic an exploding bomber.
& thereby negatively impact on the 'moral fibre' of aircrew..

On investigation , the 'Scarecrow' turned out to be - the more prosaic (& serious) effect - of real bombers,
travelling in the bomber stream ( loose night formation) actually being destroyed..

 

[J.A.W.]

AFAIR, S.F. writer R. Heinlein (see post #4) maintained 'connections' with the U.S. military
(as ex-Annapolis USN officer-graduate), right up to the Reagan era SDI,
& had been very impressed by Nazi-tech - having been at White Sands witnessing the V2 testing post-war..

& who doesn't dig 'Starship Troopers'?

 

[J.A.W.]

As foretold.. ('Too much acid?', nah - just a modicum)..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRJ5cCP0ZPE

 

[J.A.W.]

Obb, are the 'Polish' concrete cooling tower supports (pix in post#11),
-actually of ex-Nazi era origin?

Could those structures be of a standard ferro-concrete civil-engineering-type Todt Org design unit?
& located in - what was Germany, pre VE-day?

 

[J.A.W.]

& as an example of 'post-modern'-type bastardisation of fiction-into-factoid-ism.

Viz: Annie Jacobsen, journalist/author of supposedly research based books on US/Nazi connections..

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1852/1

 

[Avimimus]

The real question is ( as considered - in the 1947 USAAF AMC memo) when did the highly classified,
covert budget, ' Area 51' type stuff start? & was the 'Space Alien' stuff a cover?

Now that is a more interesting question. Given the timeframes it would seem that the UFO hysteria predated most of the more interesting projects. I think it is a case of them encountering an existing phenomena, and then seeing its utility to distract from programs like the U-2/TR-1 & SR-71...

I always thought it works out well as disinformation though - they aren't hiding space aliens at Area 51, they are hiding Groom Lake behind rumours of space aliens... still not sure what they'd get out of it though...

 

[archipeppe]

The real question is ( as considered - in the 1947 USAAF AMC memo) when did the highly classified,
covert budget, ' Area 51' type stuff start? & was the 'Space Alien' stuff a cover?

Now that is a more interesting question. Given the timeframes it would seem that the UFO hysteria predated most of the more interesting projects. I think it is a case of them encountering an existing phenomena, and then seeing its utility to distract from programs like the U-2/TR-1 & SR-71...

I always thought it works out well as disinformation though - they aren't hiding space aliens at Area 51, they are hiding Groom Lake behind rumours of space aliens... still not sure what they'd get out of it though...

My opinion that Alien Rumors started after the Operation Paperclip, U.S. authorities simply didn't wanted to make aware other countries that they had secretely transferred the Peenemunde's team inside USA.


One of my favourite explanation for the (in)famous "Roswell Crash" (if ever happened one) is a captured V2, at that time still secret, launched by White Sands and landed or crashed off-course at Roswell. If you take the V2 data you will discover that Roswell is still beanath its range (especially if V2 flown without any explosive charge onboard).


Probably in the first time someone suggested to say that an Alien interplanetary craft would be better than ex-nazi experimental rocket.
After the press gone mad about it, someone else thought that Aliens was not that good and replaced with weather balloon....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V-2_test_launches

 

[J.A.W.]

The usage of 'Space Aliens' as a cover for covert hi-tech projects - is part of 'plausible deniability'.

As way of silencing observers who have credibility to risk, & label those who don't as 'nuts'..

From Twining to Hynek, there is no doubt that certain 'flying disc' tropes were validated,
but the most likely explanation is that they are of covert, but Earthly origin.

Interestingly, the rocketeers & jet test pilots of post-war envelope pushing prowess were amongst
those to credibly report sightings of 'flying discs' - going right up to Apollo astronauts.

Formerly involved in defence systems, & New Mexico State representative Jon 'Andy' Kissner
has researched the post-war test activities, "highly classified since the end of WW II...flying discs were
another 'foreign' technology... under the authority of the R & D Board of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
OSRD & the Executive Office of the President." ( From 'Need To Know' by T. Good).

 

[J.A.W.]

Doco on the subject..
& B.S. is included..

Bill Sweetman , that is..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfH2oKrvmYg

 

[J.A.W.]

From the 'Stranger in a Strange Land' dept..

Not only was Robert A Heinlein at White Sands with post-war Nazi-tech & up for Reagan era SDI-stuff..

He was working for the USN in Philadelphia - with Isaac Asimov in 1943,- spooky or what, eh.. Sci-Fi fans..

http://www.nndb.com/people/710/000023641/

 

[J.A.W.]

& of course, the Nicola Tesla patents/Philadelphia experiment/Dr Kammler/R. Heinlein crux is another thing..

http://www.rocketcityspacepioneers.com/space/rocket-ship-galileo

Note: that 'shark fin' aero - is current again - on certain missiles..

 

[J.A.W.]

Well, I'd reckon this thread could use a bit of Viktor Schauberger to be going on with..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M81_FRbTLc

 

[NilsD]

Many years ago there was an entire show on Coast to Coast AM devoted to nazi UFO's and the bell. I should have it on a disk somewhere.

 

[J.A.W.]

Is it a flying disc?

What about the myth - that the (original Nazi-type) VW beetle hubcap - when spun - shows a swastika?

 

[J.A.W.]

From this footage shot post-war, seems the general public did get a bit of a look at Nazi-tech..

(albeit no Die Glocke , or flying disc stuff)..
& funny, - it was 'der Englanders' who got to have machine-gun fun at the fair, not these days eh..)

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/ata-pageant-air-show

(& thanks to AK),

https://wwww.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1723870789084

 

[Stargazer]

Never thought I'd see the day when a Secret Projects topic with the acronym "UFO" in it would reach its fourth page without being locked and with no name-calling involved... Congrats folks! Very interesting topic by the way.

 

[Jemiba]

... a Secret Projects topic with the acronym "UFO" in it ...

And, much worse, even "Nazi UFO" ! But it was put in the right way by "All the fuss ...", I think and although
I don't like dealing with such themes, knowing and understanding the origins may be useful for the understanding
of similar things, as UFOs are just the peak of a mountain of other things, sometimes maybe sounding more
probable, but often not containing more truth.

 

[J.A.W.]

Partial list of ex-Nazi aero-space scientists - who picked up where they left off - post-war..

http://www.astronautix.com/articles/gerspora.htm

 

[theponja]

... a Secret Projects topic with the acronym "UFO" in it ...

And, much worse, even "Nazi UFO" ! But it was put in the right way by "All the fuss ...", I think and although
I don't like dealing with such themes, knowing and understanding the origins may be useful for the understanding
of similar things, as UFOs are just the peak of a mountain of other things, sometimes maybe sounding more
probable, but often not containing more truth.

Thanks Jens. As he says I a bit afraid to post the subject but at leas I wanted to know how all this started. A lot of times when I try fight back about this "crazy ideas" they began to talk about authors and now I've information to counter-attack at least.


BTW I think this post shows even this subjects can be seriouly discussed.

 

[Mat Parry]

Suitably sarcastic



http://sploid.gizmodo.com/what-are-these-mysterious-giant-concrete-rings-built-by-1561340482/+matthardigree

 

[J.A.W.]

Example of post-war appraisal/report on Nazi-tech..

http://www.cdvandt.org/BIOS%201658.pdf

 

[theponja]

J.A.W. the links are very interesting.

My own country has a lot to talk about the "advantage" of Nazi teach. This case about "cold" nuclear fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huemul_Project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKazlB-yXG0 in Spanish

Of course a waste of money.

Regards
Alcides

 

[J.A.W.]

Yes, & it runs deep, even in the `60s - the popular TV spy comedy 'Get Smart' had a running joke..

..about whenever the USA is in a crisis - 'South America' offers them the loan of its top Nazi scientists..