What might the aircraft carriers of the future look like ?

Do aircraft carriers still have their place in the future ?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Yes, but in a different way.


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Most wargames in the Cold War (notably those published by the Naval War College) saw most U S carriers either sunk or severely damaged.
In the N Atlantic that meant F14s, F18s, A6s and S3s moving to shore bases notably in the UK.
I imagine the same would happen to US air groups in a war with China (assuming they get away before the missiles hit).
 
Most wargames in the Cold War (notably those published by the Naval War College) saw most U S carriers either sunk or severely damaged.
In the N Atlantic that meant F14s, F18s, A6s and S3s moving to shore bases notably in the UK.
I imagine the same would happen to US air groups in a war with China (assuming they get away before the missiles hit).
Fewer places for them to go in the Pacific. Philippines, Okinawa, Guam, Japan, Midway(?), Hawaii...
 
Most wargames in the Cold War (notably those published by the Naval War College) saw most U S carriers either sunk or severely damaged.
And yet more countries are building carriers (or planning to) than ever, including China.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the wargames they had made beforehand predicted the loss of 3 of their aircraft carriers. 0 were actually lost.
I think the results of these wargames are very relative.
 
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When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the wargames they had made beforehand predicted the loss of 3 aircraft carriers. 0 were actually lost.
I think the results of these wargames are very relative.
No navy's exercises in the 1930s proved to provide a particularly accurate picture of what would happen when war came. All depended on the "rules" being played by.
 
I don't really think it's useful to discuss whether plane "a" is better than "b", but rather whether the strategy of the set of "a" is better or worse than "b". This is indeed productive, as the answers have already been given whenever the pragmatism of reality knocking on our door presents itself. At the end of WWII, the USA had more than 70 aircraft carriers of different categories....it is the same as discussing whether the USA should, at the time, have built only Essex Class units, regardless of urgency, time, resources and missions. If this was really necessary, why would today be any different? And if the most powerful country with the best doctrines will be charged on this point, why wouldn't smaller countries be the same? The question is how many navy planes will be flying attacking or defending their squadrons after 15 days of high-level attrition fighting? At this point, it is much safer if they can be diluted on several ships... as this way, the loss of some of them would still guarantee a high operational percentage of the remainder....
Had a weird thought, and looking at wiki it seems like it'd work.

Nuclear Midways, using a single A1B reactor like the Ford class. From wiki:
It is estimated that the thermal power output of each A1B will be around 700 MWth, some 25% more than provided by the A4W.[4] Improved efficiency in the total plant is expected to provide improved output to both propulsion and electrical systems. Using A4W data[5] with a 25% increase in thermal power, the A1B reactors likely produce enough steam to generate 125 megawatts (168,000 hp) of electricity, plus 350,000 shaft horsepower (260 MW) from just one reactor to power the four propeller shafts.[6]
Emphasis mine.

Midways had about 212,000hp at the shafts, so if that quote is correct a single A1B would be well more than enough to power a nuclear Midway. Possibly for more speed, or add some more SSTGs and run less steam through the propulsion turbines to have more electrical power available. Because I'm fairly sure that whatever size carrier you have, the combat systems are all going to suck up about the same amount of power.

Whether to do that or not is a different discussion, as nuclear power is expensive and has a lot of long-lead construction items, while a pile of WR21s or MT30s on generators for IEP is a lot simpler. Which makes the ships faster to construct as gas turbine IEPs.
 
Most wargames in the Cold War (notably those published by the Naval War College) saw most U S carriers either sunk or severely damaged.
In the N Atlantic that meant F14s, F18s, A6s and S3s moving to shore bases notably in the UK.
I imagine the same would happen to US air groups in a war with China (assuming they get away before the missiles hit).

It would be significantly more dangerous in the Pacific, as missiles are now longer ranged and easier to target, while carriers have less capable air wings than they did 40 years ago. The most important aspect for carrier combat, whether against land bases or other carriers, is strike radius. USN carriers barely get like 500 nmi now,with Super Hornets carrying an appreciable war load, but they used to have closer to 900 nmi.

The most likely outcome is that the carriers stand back in the deep ocean, minimally contributes to the fight, and the battlegroups sling Tomahawks at targets identified by satellite, submarine, or stealth bomber. The forward deployed battlegroups will probably be killed or crippled (same thing) in the initial stages though. I think that's just kind of inevitable without moving the carriers further back.

If the Navy has to assault the SCS, to retake Taiwan or something, it will probably be impossible in any practical sense without nukes. Knocking out the anti-ship missile assets, naval combat forces, and destroying the PLAN's ability to sortie submarines would be the most important thing prior to an amphibious landing, and aside from simply flattening ports with tactical nukes, there's simply not an easy way to do this.

This applies to the Chinese a bit, but they have less of a problem, because the US and its allies have fewer and smaller bases.

The artist impression in #70 leaves a lot to be desired. First off, the top deck is too symmetrical, and without the angled deck is an accident in the making as a jet comes in and has to magically land between rows of parked vehicles. I don't think you abandon the angled deck.

Angled flight decks are useless if you're designing a stealth carrier to accompany a Zumwalt lol.

The hangar is at the level of the two waist catapults, so they will be less affected by waves than bow cats, and the aircraft land on the upper hangar. They are lowed into the hangar and armed, and then moved out to the catapults. The catapults have little louvres or palisades that erect along the side to reduce the radar reflection from the open hangar doors as aircraft transit from the hangar-bomb farm to the catapult area, and from the aircraft and jet blast deflector themselves.

There is literally nothing on the deck when the ship is in combat. It would compromise the RCS reduction measures, obviously.

Multi-hulls are much dumber than the stealth carrier because no one has built a sizeable multihull (>2,000 tons) without hull cracking.
 
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More because they couldn't do literally anything other than a Nimitz hull. I'm not even sure if the starboard list was corrected.

The original CVNX ECBL design, although a conventional monohull, was slightly larger than a Nimitz.

Midway isn't quite right, but CVF isn't too far off anyway, perhaps Kitty Hawk is a better comparison point. Give it 20 to 40 A-12-type attack aircraft with combat radii in the 1,000-1,500 nmi range and it might be able to do something useful.

Something like this perhaps, but with conventional propeller shafts in lieu of Azipods?

Screenshot_2017-06-21-18-06-34.png
Screenshot_20190424-122949~2.png

Nimitzes being sized for Vietnam type conventional munition expenditure, in an era where even the most basic aviation bomb is a satellite guided weapon, is a bit silly. Ordnance storage can probably be reduced by nearly an order of magnitude without significantly reducing the ability of the carrier to fight for the initial 48-72 hours, provided there's a commensurate reduction in air wing size. The latter has already occurred with the Super Hornet and Lightning air wings.

CVF does a lot of things right in this regard. The Nimitz only really makes sense if you have a massive air wing (90+ aircraft), emphasize alpha strikes, and hit targets with CCIP and sticks of iron bombs. Otherwise, it's an inefficient design.

The large magazine volume can be devoted to larger stand-off weapons and increased protection. Norman Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers discusses various protective features included in CVV's design, intended to protect against large hollow-charge warheads, and would reduce the ordnance capacity of the CVV to 1191 tons, and the ordnance capacity of a modified-Kennedy reduced from an original 2000 tons to 1250 tons.

A fully automated magazine handling system like that in CVN-78 or CVF is also likely require more volume.

Of course size is also likely to be dictated by Airwing, and if you're using Northrop ATAs/A-11-style strike aircraft and/or NGADs, then a large flight deck will be required to handle them, which will also dictate the size of the carrier.

CVF doesn't, and it's the only good one that isn't American, so why would U.S. carriers bother?

The original CVF Design Alpha had Aster, the cut-down Delta that was actually built did not. Had Britain had a little more money, I expect CVF would have received Aster.
 
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Something like this perhaps, but with conventional propeller shafts in lieu of Azipods?

View attachment 711714
View attachment 711715
If we're getting IEP ships, I'd just as soon use azipods if they're powerful enough. Less risk of flooding if you take a torpedo up the stern because there's no spinning hull penetrations!


The large magazine volume can be devoted to larger stand-off weapons and increased protection. Norman Friedman's US Aircraft Carriers discusses various protective features included in CVV's design, intended to protect against large hollow-charge warheads, and would reduce the ordnance capacity of the CVV to 1191 tons, and the ordnance capacity of a modified-Kennedy reduced from an original 2000 tons to 1250 tons.


A fully automated magazine handling system like that in CVN-78 or CVF is also likely require more volume.

Of course size is also likely to be dictated by Airwing, and if you're using Northrop ATAs/A-11-style strike aircraft and/or NGADs, then a large flight deck will be required to handle them, which will also dictate the size of the carrier.
110 sorties per day, each sortie carrying some 8 tons of boom. Call it 800 tons of boom per day, because not all the AAMs will get used unless something has gone horribly wrong. The CVV and modKennedy have 1.5 days continuous operations in terms of ordnance.
 
If we're getting IEP ships, I'd just as soon use azipods if they're powerful enough. Less risk of flooding if you take a torpedo up the stern because there's no spinning hull penetrations!

I'm not sure how they'd handle shock damage, and I'd want to fit Agouti/Prairie for silencing, and I'm not sure any existing azipod can do that (although it's been fitted to variable-pitch propellors, so I expect it could be done for azipods).
 
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I'm not sure how they'd handle shock damage, and I'd want to fit Agouti/Prairie for silencing, and I'm not sure any existing azipod can do that (although it's been fitted to variable-pitch propellors, so I expect it could be done for azipods).
Run the air line down the center of rotation, power lines around that probably via a stacked set of brushes and conductors.
 
HMAS Melbourne better than USS Constellation during RIMPAC 1980 :
 
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the wargames they had made beforehand predicted the loss of 3 aircraft carriers. 0 were actually lost.
I think the results of these wargames are very relative.
Part of that was luck, in that the USN carriers were not in Pearl Harbor at the time.

War games, whether the highest end ones put together by defense staffs or the lowest end ones, designed by the most ignorant of fanbois, are only as good as the assumptions made in the rules and the interpretations of the rules. Before WW2, both defense against and offense with carrier-based aircraft, was not tested, so there was no way to calibrate the assumptions that went into designing the games.

Since WW2, there have been no actions where carriers were subject to significant attack. While the assumptions that the designers of current war games have more data behind them than did the ones that predated WW2, those data are nearly 80 years old.
 
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the wargames they had made beforehand predicted the loss of 3 aircraft carriers. 0 were actually lost.
I think the results of these wargames are very relative.

Part of that was luck, in that the USN carriers were not in Pearl Harbor at the time.

War games, whether the highest end ones put together by defense staffs or the lowest end ones, designed by the most ignorant of fanbois, are only as good as the assumptions made in the rules and the interpretations of the rules. Before WW2, both defense against and offense with carrier-based aircraft, was not tested, so there was no way to calibrate the assumptions that went into designing the games.

Since WW2, there have been no actions where carriers were subject to significant attack. While the assumptions that the designers of current war games have more data behind them than did the ones that predated WW2, those data are nearly 80 years old.
No, the Japanese war-games predicted 3 JAPANESE carrier losses.

They were expecting US patrol aircraft to detect the first air strike as it approached Oahu, and for a retaliatory US air strike with bombers etc. to be launched to follow the carrier aircraft back and attack the IJN fleet - as they expected the US forces to actually be on alert and ready for take-off at short notice, not to be lined up and closely-packed (and without ammunition etc) with aircrews nowhere near their aircraft.
 
Another issue with multihulls is how you can build a monohull carrier that is at the width limit for the drydock and then hang the sponsons and flight deck over the top, but a SWATH or a Trimaran needs drydocks the width of the flight deck.

If it wasn't for that, I'd bet that we would have seen the Fords built as trimarans, because that greatly reduces propulsion power needed for the same speed.
Couldn't you still build the over hang over and beyond the sponsons? That's what the Russians did in there weird half trimaran aircraft carrier proposal.
 
Couldn't you still build the over hang over and beyond the sponsons? That's what the Russians did in there weird half trimaran aircraft carrier proposal.
You can, but you still end up needing a very wide drydock to fit the trimaran part. For example, the Independence class LCS have a 104ft beam and are only 418ft long. A 1000ft long trimaran with the same hull proportions would need roughly 250ft for the trimaran sections.
 
Something like Sea Base/JMOB can still have a place--perhaps like the catch-only towers being discussed for Starship.

High-dollar carrier assets can fly to simplified JMOBs with targets in-between.

A handful of JMOBs in trouble spots but also atop guyots so nowhere to really sink. Subs in between the catamaran hulls perhaps.
 
The size of carriers could be probably reduced by implementing some system for quick transport of ammunition&fuel containers from fast supply ships to carriers themselves. Not a "sheduled resupply pauses in operations", more likely "continious resupply stream during operations".
 
The size of carriers could be probably reduced by implementing some system for quick transport of ammunition&fuel containers from fast supply ships to carriers themselves. Not a "sheduled resupply pauses in operations", more likely "continious resupply stream during operations".
No good way to do that, due to the sheer volume of consumables.

A single plane carries some 5 tons of fuel. 100 sorties a day (rounding well down from USN norms to get to easy numbers) means 500 tons of fuel per day for air operations. Refueling once a week means you can load the 3500 tons of fuel for the next week's operations in maybe a hour (big fuel hoses, high pressures)
 
A single plane carries some 5 tons of fuel. 100 sorties a day (rounding well down from USN norms to get to easy numbers) means 500 tons of fuel per day for air operations.
Well, let's try something like that:

1720540796799.jpeg
This TEU-standard cistern is described as 26.000 litres volume. I.e. about 20,8 tons of kerosene per cistern (assuming kerosene density 0.8). I.e. to load 500 tons of fuel you would need to load 24 TEU-size cisterns per day. Not impossible.
 
If shore 'small modular reactors' come good, could we see ships with one or two of those for base-power and gas-turbines for sprint ??

Also, 'Swarming' drones: To be 'useful', you'd need to launch / salvo / sortie 'many' in quick succession.
And, perhaps recover them rapidly.
I can imagine multiple VLS systems for optional drone / missile deployment 'By the Dozen', with proviso that recovered drones may be wing-folded, replenished, stuffed back into silo system...
So, vertical 'revolver' magazines for prompt internal, all-weather access for re-usable drones and some missiles, plus top-access for rest ??
 
Carrier size is mainly dictated by the flight deck and hangar size. I don't know why you would want to make the carrier smaller, it basically has no driving on cost.

Constant replenishment is going to be more expensive, those replenishment ships need crews as well, not to mention it will interfere with flight operations, and put the carrier in a more vulnerable state.

I've seen proposals for a system designed to unload containers from a in Marvin Miller's Mobile Logistic Support for Aircraft Carriers, and it doesn't look wildly practical. I don't believe any currently existing UNREP system can transfer fully-loaded TEUs to the carrier from a replenishment ship either, jet engines seem to be the heaviest individual load transferred by UNREP.
 
If shore 'small modular reactors' come good, could we see ships with one or two of those for base-power and gas-turbines for sprint ??

No, I don't think they're that much less powerful than existing PWRs already used on existing ships. Not to mention you'd want to militarise them (shock hardening etc) and reactors do not scale down easily in terms of shielding requirements or cost. The advant of reactors is high sustained speed, a CONAG plant loses those advantages.

Also, 'Swarming' drones: To be 'useful', you'd need to launch / salvo / sortie 'many' in quick succession.
And, perhaps recover them rapidly.
I can imagine multiple VLS systems for optional drone / missile deployment 'By the Dozen', with proviso that recovered drones may be wing-folded, replenished, stuffed back into silo system...
So, vertical 'revolver' magazines for prompt internal, all-weather access for re-usable drones and some missiles, plus top-access for rest ??
Small swarming drones are not going to be useful in a maritime environment, except in the Littorals. Range requirements are going drive them up in size to something larger. You want to operate unmanned aircraft at sea? You operate them from an aircraft carrier, or from the helicopter decks of existing warships.

Maybe data-links are reliable enough to make the of those 1970s and 80s DGV and CGV/MEU proposals a reality..in that case surface combatants might get conventional flight decks for drones that will then cue long-range missiles launched by the parent ship or other accompanying surface combatants, manned or unmanned.
 
Well, let's try something like that:

View attachment 734165
This TEU-standard cistern is described as 26.000 litres volume. I.e. about 20,8 tons of kerosene per cistern (assuming kerosene density 0.8). I.e. to load 500 tons of fuel you would need to load 24 TEU-size cisterns per day. Not impossible.
Too heavy, the King Stallion can only lift ~36,000lbs. So you'd need to underload those to have a total weight of ~15 tonnes. The tare weight on those is ~4000kg (max of 4060kg), so ~11 tonnes of fuel and I'm assuming a nitrogen fill on top of the fuel for safety (half a tank is screamingly dangerous to airlift).

Now you need to shuffle 48 or so cisterns a day, one every 30 minutes.

If you have a King Stallion around. But hey, those are in production, the USN would only need like 50 of them and I'm sure the USMC could have an arm twisted to split some helo detachments out to send a trio of King Stallions to each carrier or supply ship (if the supply ship has a hangar big enough for King Stallions, I don't believe the current ones do but that can be corrected as the existing supply ships are replaced).

The USN is presently stuck with CMV-22s on carriers, which can only sling 15klbs/7000kg, so we're not going to even try that TEU box, we're going straight to fuel bladders. Those bladders can hold a bit over 5000kg of fuel, which gets us to loading one bladder every 15 minutes... That's basically constantly having an Osprey in flight 24/7.

Instead of the current model of having an AOE in the carrier group and refueling every weekend or as necessary for the conventional escorts.
 
Too heavy, the King Stallion can only lift ~36,000lbs. So you'd need to underload those to have a total weight of ~15 tonnes. The tare weight on those is ~4000kg (max of 4060kg), so ~11 tonnes of fuel and I'm assuming a nitrogen fill on top of the fuel for safety (half a tank is screamingly dangerous to airlift).
I was thinking not about airlift, but about loading from fast transport ships, that would link to carrier.
 
I was thinking not about airlift, but about loading from fast transport ships, that would link to carrier.
Faster to just run a fuel line over and refuel that way. Plus you can transfer a lot more fuel for the same amount of time alongside the supply ship. I'm also not totally sure that you can physically transfer a 25tonne object via the UNREP systems.

Now, giving a carrier some container-handling capabilities is probably a good idea, but that'd be for docking in a port, not at sea work.
 
Faster to just run a fuel line over and refuel that way. Plus you can transfer a lot more fuel for the same amount of time alongside the supply ship. I'm also not totally sure that you can physically transfer a 25tonne object via the UNREP systems.

Now, giving a carrier some container-handling capabilities is probably a good idea, but that'd be for docking in a port, not at sea work.
Hm. I'm still not persuaded, but your arguments are logical.
 
Here is my conception about future aircraft carrier,

it has three hulls,with dimensions of 400m length,max span 120m,and there
are some explanations,

1- Is the main deck
2- & 3- Are the subsidiary decks
4- The lift section
5- The control of the ship

Many advantages are given by this design,such as there are a three runways,
to easy takeoff and landing,huge space is for large numbers of airplanes,also
a simplicity move from deck to another and a capability of launch more than
plane in the same time.
 

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Here is my conception about future aircraft carrier,

it has three hulls,with dimensions of 400m length,max span 120m,and there
are some explanations,

1- Is the main deck
2- & 3- Are the subsidiary decks
4- The lift section
5- The control of the ship

Many advantages are given by this design,such as there are a three runways,
to easy takeoff and landing,huge space is for large numbers of airplanes,also
a simplicity move from deck to another and a capability of launch more than
plane in the same time.

By the way,it is possibly to reduce the dimensions for the same concept
into 300m length and max span 90m.
 
Hmm...
I've heard some 'interesting' tales about the issues of resupply for our local, inshore gas rig(s). Visible from shore, safely stood in reasonably shallow water, defined as just deep enough for storm waves to not 'feel the ground' and rear up. Even so, even with 'clever' cranes, non-trivial...

Seems to me that neither 'Super Stallion' nor 'Osprey' are an appropriate solution for hoiking big, boxy things hither and yon....
Time to enlist upgraded 'SkyCrane' ??
AKA S-54, S-64 and CH-54 Tarhe

Given a modicum of 'Joined-Up Thinking', a '64++'should have much commonality with existing big helos etc...

But, for pity's sake, do not let Boeing any-where near the contract...
 
Faster to just run a fuel line over and refuel that way. Plus you can transfer a lot more fuel for the same amount of time alongside the supply ship. I'm also not totally sure that you can physically transfer a 25tonne object via the UNREP systems.

Now, giving a carrier some container-handling capabilities is probably a good idea, but that'd be for docking in a port, not at sea work.

One thing the Marines did during Bataan's Harrier Carrier ops in Iraqi Freedom was to use LCACs to resupply ammunition. They had an LSD collect ammo from conventional T-AK cargo ships via VERTREP, then load it onto LCACs in the LSD well deck and shuttle it over to Bataan via her well deck. They could take aboard ammo in the middle of flight ops, because the well deck and flight deck didn't interfere with each other.

 
One thing the Marines did during Bataan's Harrier Carrier ops in Iraqi Freedom was to use LCACs to resupply ammunition. They had an LSD collect ammo from conventional T-AK cargo ships via VERTREP, then load it onto LCACs in the LSD well deck and shuttle it over to Bataan via her well deck. They could take aboard ammo in the middle of flight ops, because the well deck and flight deck didn't interfere with each other.

Right, the only reason they could make it work was because they had a well deck to use as an ammunition reloading area. The standard carrier does not have a well deck and so can't really take advantage of that.

But since we are talking about a carrier of the future, let's give it container handling facilities, a well deck, and maybe even RO-RO capabilities.
 
Believe it or not, the QUEEN ELIZABETH class was designed to allow HGVs to drive in via one aircraft lift, unload in the hangar, and drive off via the other, to minimise manual handling when storing ship. But the MoD didn't fund the necessary shore ramps.
Because of course they didn't... *facepalm*

I meant having the ramps built into the ship proper, not relying on shore facilities that some Treasury idiot can cancel.
 
Believe it or not, the QUEEN ELIZABETH class was designed to allow HGVs to drive in via one aircraft lift, unload in the hangar, and drive off via the other, to minimise manual handling when storing ship. But the MoD didn't fund the necessary shore ramps.
*Sigh*
 
HGV : Heavy Good Vehicle ? also known as a truck (screw accronyms).
44-tonne articulated lorries, whatever you want call them. I deliberately avoided 'truck' since the term can cover everything from a quarter-tonne pickup through to a mining hauler.

Though I think the preferred term now is 'Large Goods Vehicle', and technically covers everything over 3.5 tonnes.
 

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