Westland Westminster

[TsrJoe]

manufacturers display model at International Helicopter Museum, Weston Super Mare

 

[AndrewN]

You know, nothing is ever lost or forgotten, I can see elements of the Merlin in these models and drawings.

 

[Ekimwest]

Hi. Not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this but in the extract of text in post #10 by Matej, it talks about Westland Westminster predecessor designs by Westland for B.E.A. and says ‘...A year later saw a proposal for an even larger design, a fifty-seat machine with three Napier Eland gas turbines or four Rolls-Royce Dart engines.’

This proposal was in response to a B.E.A. invitation in July 1952 to submit a design study. The Westland design study proposed two stages. In order to avoid expensive engine development cost, stage 1 was to be driven by four ‘Dart’ turbines (as the ‘Dart’ was well known to B.E.A. and its serviceability established). This would enable a practical helicopter in the shortest time.

It was then proposed to improve the design in stage 2 by the use of more efficient engines. It was anticipated that the ‘Eland’ engine, then under test and development, would be the probable successor to the ‘Dart’ and so stage 2 was shown with three ‘Eland’ engines.

I have attached a photograph of the stage 1 model if it’s of interest to anyone.

 

[hesham]

Welcome aboard Ekimwest,

and amazing Model,thanks.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Welcome aboard Ekimwest,

and amazing Model,thanks.

Please use the like button on the post for "thanks" messages, or leave a profile post (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/members/ekimwest.12993/)

 

[steelpillow]

Westland's chief test pilot turned reluctant head of sales Harald Penrose has a bit to say about it in his wonderful autobiography Adventure with Fate (pub. Airlife, 1984). The Westminster was Westland's take on what to hang under the Sikorsky S-56 mechanical gubbins and was a private venture in direct competition with the Fairey Rotodyne, principally as an inner-city feeder. It was flown in skeletal part-finished form to get flight testing underway as quickly as possible. Later the fuselage was skinned to fake up the passenger version in a last-minute bid to woo the Ministry. But they went for the clunky noisy want-one-to-play-with solution which eventually failed anyway. Germany wanted the Westminster, but would not buy unless the RAF did. Sadly, there was no interest there either and the Westminster died.
By then Westland had taken over Bristol's helicopter business, where they were working up a large twin-rotor the Type 194. It was allowed to continue for the time being, as a possible successor to the Westminster as well as their own Type 192 Belvedere, but was never built.

 

[CJGibson]

You have to wonder why Westland binned the Westminster in favour of the Rotodyne.

Chris

 

[Schneiderman]

The lure of 250+ possible orders for the Rotodyne from the US?

 

[Hood]

Because the Westminster had rehashed Sikorsky mechanicals and in the future-obsessed 50s the Rotodyne looked more technically advanced?
Or because the MoA was trying hard to foist them onto the RAF and BEA?

 

[alertken]

Shall we role play on the Board of Westland (controlled by John Brown & Co, a hefty enterprise, who provided Chairman Eric Mensforth) in May,1960? We proudly own all and anything UK-rotary. That nice Mr.Sandys gave us 26 (to be Belvedere) to lure us to buy Bristol Helis; Fairey came with MoA R&D funding for Rotodyne for Army insertion: it has a Kaman licence and expressions of intent to buy by NY A/W and BEA Helis. We have licences for S.56, and have been toying with our own money, and for S.61, which we think can sell into RN/ASW.

We are however not very good at selling anything to anybody who is not UK military. Folk we have inherited at Saro and Bristol are no better. Agusta and Sud do better with their Sikorsky licences (does my enfeebled memory link Sud Frelon with S.56 power train?) So the Board tells Chairman to talk to their sponsor in MoA, AD/AR Ron Shaw. He handles all those weirdos - Jet Flap, porous airfoils for BLC, slender deltas, Rotodyne...and hovercraft: concentrate on those he said, where UK has advantage over the production scale of, say, Sud, and the design expertise of, well all the other rotorists. I have RAF interest in Rotodyne, none in S.56 or more Belvederes; I have RN disposition to take what USN is taking: (to be) Sea King.

No brainer, no? Rotodyne won an RAF order for 12, plus increased MoA R&D funds, 12/61, only to be chopped 2/62, replaced by Andover for reasons maybe driven by non-rotory issues.

 

[Caravellarella]

Shall we role play on the Board of Westland (controlled by John Brown & Co, a hefty enterprise, who provided Chairman Eric Mensforth) in May,1960? We proudly own all and anything UK-rotary. That nice Mr.Sandys gave us 26 (to be Belvedere) to lure us to buy Bristol Helis; Fairey came with MoA R&D funding for Rotodyne for Army insertion: it has a Kaman licence and expressions of intent to buy by NY A/W and BEA Helis. We have licences for S.56, and have been toying with our own money, and for S.61, which we think can sell into RN/ASW.

We are however not very good at selling anything to anybody who is not UK military. Folk we have inherited at Saro and Bristol are no better. Agusta and Sud do better with their Sikorsky licences (does my enfeebled memory link Sud Frelon with S.56 power train?) So the Board tells Chairman to talk to their sponsor in MoA, AD/AR Ron Shaw. He handles all those weirdos - Jet Flap, porous airfoils for BLC, slender deltas, Rotodyne...and hovercraft: concentrate on those he said, where UK has advantage over the production scale of, say, Sud, and the design expertise of, well all the other rotorists. I have RAF interest in Rotodyne, none in S.56 or more Belvederes; I have RN disposition to take what USN is taking: (to be) Sea King.

No brainer, no? Rotodyne won an RAF order for 12, plus increased MoA R&D funds, 12/61, only to be chopped 2/62, replaced by Andover for reasons maybe driven by non-rotory issues.[

Dear Alertken, I recall that Sikorsky (only) helped Sud-Aviation re-design the SA.3210 Super Frelon's fuselage/hull.

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[TomS]

Dear Alertken, I recall that Sikorsky (only) helped Sud-Aviation re-design the SA.3210 Super Frelon's fuselage/hull.

Terry (Caravellarella)

Rather more than that. Sikorsky designed the main and tail rotors for Super Frelon. (Fiat did the transmission.)

 

[persil]

A motion picture to complement this thread:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeUESnuLkg

 

[uk 75]

This Sikorsky helicopter nearly ended up in production by Westland but government restrictions meant they had to use features of it on the Westminster.
Read under "variants" here.

Sikorsky CH-37 Mojave - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Given the success of the Westland Seaking it is a tempting what-if Westland Mojave Westminster

 

[JimK]

Here are a couple of cutaways of the Westminster by Dick Ellis and Ashwell Wood:

Edit: The image titles should obviously read Westminster, not Westminister.

 

[1635yankee]

You have to wonder why Westland binned the Westminster in favour of the Rotodyne.

Chris

Wasn't the Rotodyne Fairey's?

I, for one, would have binned the Rotodyne. Neglecting its complication, it was too noisy for the environmental concerns in the early 1960s, when just about anything short of spraying methyl mercury for mosquito control would be acceptable.

 

[CJGibson]

You need this:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-air-staff-and-the-helicopter.28154/#post-551451

Chris