Was "Area 51" book, now cesium additives in JP-7

[aim9xray]

Dark Eagle - as an empirical exercise - think back to all of the Blackbird launches that you watched. What color was the afterburner plume - the part that glowed?

 

[Dark Eagle]

Wrong. The delivery method is not important to Permissible Exposure Limits and Time Weighted Average because those number only deal with the amount of cesium.

I'm just basing that information as provide by the CDC. Read their description about the Health Effects of Cesium. Here is the first part of it-

" The primary purpose of this chapter is to provide public health officials, physicians, toxicologists, and
other interested individuals and groups with an overall perspective on the toxicology of cesium, existing
naturally as the stable (nonradioactive) isotope 133Cs and in the form of radioactive isotopes produced
during nuclear fission, the most abundant of which are 137Cs and 134Cs. This chapter contains descriptions
and evaluations of toxicological studies and epidemiological investigations and provides conclusions,
where possible, on the relevance of toxicity and toxicokinetic data to public health. Section 3.2 contains a
discussion of the chemical toxicity of stable cesium; radiation toxicity associated with exposure to
radiocesium (primarily 137Cs and 134Cs) is discussed in Section 3.3. The chemical properties of stable and
radioactive cesium isotopes are identical and are described in Chapter 4.

A glossary and list of acronyms, abbreviations, and symbols can be found at the end of this profile.

Since the average concentration of stable cesium in the earth’s crust is low (on average about 1 ppm) and
stable cesium is used only in small quantities in electronic and energy production industries, the risk of
significant exposure to stable cesium via inhalation, oral, or dermal routes is expected to be small.
Limited information is available on monitoring (or detection) of stable cesium in the environment and on
health effects from exposure to stable cesium. "

So all that I am saying is, if cesium was a component of jet fuel in which tens of billions of pounds were released into the environment, then the CDC's data is flawed as to the amount and risk of exposure.

 

[Orionblamblam]

So all that I am saying is, if cesium was a component of jet fuel in which tens of billions of pounds were released into the environment, then the CDC's data is flawed as to the amount and risk of exposure.

How can you say that with a straight face? Unless you know the ratio of cesium to jet fuel, ten billion pounds of jet fuel over fifty years might have spat ten thousand pounds of cesium into the *entire* biosphere in fifty years. 200 pounds per year spread over the entire surface of the Earth is by *any* measure not a statistical risk worth noting.

 

[Dark Eagle]

With all the aviation experts on these subjects, I still haven't read any explanation to Kelly Johnson's statement in the original OXCART document DATED 1968. Would anyone like to give it a try?

" By this time we were working with P&W on a J58 engine. To overcome the afterburner problem of a large radar cross section return from the aft quadrant, we proposed the use of cesium additive to the fuel. This was first brought up by Mr. Ed Lovick of ADP, and its final development was passed over to P&W. IT WAS EVENTUALLY A BASIC PART OF OUR CROSS SECTION REDUCTION METHODS."

http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp?doc_no=0001458639&no_pages=0025&showPage=0001

 

[Dark Eagle]

How can you say that with a straight face? Unless you know the ratio of cesium to jet fuel, ten billion pounds of jet fuel over fifty years might have spat ten thousand pounds of cesium into the *entire* biosphere in fifty years. 200 pounds per year spread over the entire surface of the Earth is by *any* measure not a statistical risk worth noting.

The information provided in books and declassified documents-

1. Ben Rich stated that an Ionizing additive was used in the Blackbird's fuel.

2. Kelly Johnson stated that Cesium was used as an additive in the Blackbird's fuel.

3. Ed Lovick stated that a fuel soluble compound was use in the Blackbird's consisting of 30% Cesium Metal in Dialkyl Phosphite.

4. The CDC states that cesium is a dangerous material.

5. In 1985, Right to Know and Hazardous Communication laws were established to inform and protect workers from hazardous exposures.

6. No communication or protection was provided.

7. Presidential Executive Order #11157 was given to compensate persons working on systems that used toxic fuels. (None was paid)

8. The Environmental Assessment Report for the Deactivation of the SR-71 Program did not list cesium as a component of the fuel which leaked into the environment. (a violation of the law)

9. The USAF denies the use of cesium in JP-7 whatsoever, ever. A compartmentalized program in which need to know security existed at the highest possible levels.

10. The CIA Historian rewrites his version of the Oxcart Program omitting any reference to the use of cesium that Kelly Johnson and Ed Lovick give prime credit for the programs existence.

11. The Blackbird's used in excess of 20 Billion pounds of JP-7, not counting the amounts used by the KC-135Q Tanker fleet.

12. Components of the fuel are listed as a trade secret by the manufacture.

~~~~~~~

A person does not have to know the details in amounts to report a suspected hazardous condition.

A person who makes judgment to not report suspicions based on his own unsubstantiated statistics of risk is in dereliction of duty.

Exposures differ by use, time, environmental conditions, and concentrations. Unless you are a scientist specializing in cause and effect of toxins in the environment, you have no business making assumptions that effect safety and health. Your only responsibility is to report suspicions and to follow though to correct inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies in the released documents to the use of and possible exposure to personnel from cesium warrants further investigation.

Ethics and Morals are the stated scope and basis for Air Force Regulations governing environmental compliance and safety.

Journalist by trade have an ethical duty to report inconsistencies that may effect public health. It is their moral responsibility to clarify these inconsistencies.

 

[quellish]

The information provided in books and declassified documents-

1. Ben Rich stated that an Ionizing additive was used in the Blackbird's fuel.

2. Kelly Johnson stated that Cesium was used as an additive in the Blackbird's fuel.

3. Ed Lovick stated that a fuel soluble compound was use in the Blackbird's consisting of 30% Cesium Metal in Dialkyl Phosphite.

These were all in reference to the A-12, not the SR-71. The information available is that the additive was tested on the A-12, but there is no indication that it was used for anything more than testing. There is not any information that suggests it was ever used on the SR-71.
When burned, cesium salts will produce a distinctive spectral signature. A quick look through photos of the SR-71 in afterburner do not show this signature in the exhaust plume.
The A-12 RCS tests used cones attached to the exhausts to simulate use of the additive. So far, there is no indication this was ever done during SR-71 RCS tests.
By the time the SR-71 was operational the additive had a negligible affect on the aircraft's survivability.

There is so far no indication that the additive was ever used for more than tests on the A-12.

4. The CDC states that cesium is a dangerous material.

Sodium, also an alkali metal, is EXTREMELY dangerous in its elemental form. Sodium chloride is comparatively harmless. Cesium salts do not have all the same properties as elemental cesium. I have not seen CDC assessments of cesium in dialkly phosphite or cesium salts, which are used in several other industries.

 

[Arjen]

Sodium, also an alkali metal, is EXTREMELY dangerous in its elemental form.

Sodium is extremely reactive, therefore virtually non-existent in this form under normal circumstances. Same goes for potassium. in fact all other alkali metals.

Release large quantities of any of the alkali metals into the biosphere, and you get lots of unhappy lifeforms. Not to say dead.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Release large quantities of any of the alkali metals into the biosphere, and you get lots of unhappy lifeforms.

Release large quantities of any of the alkali metals into the biosphere, and you get lots of alkali-metal-oxides. Pure elemental cesium added to jet engine exhaust is going to be *hot* elemental cesium until it can find some free oxygen to party with. Cesium salts, on the other hand, will likely just become hot cesium salts... and room temperature cesium salts by the time they encounter *any* multicullular organism

 

[Orionblamblam]

How can you say that with a straight face? Unless you know the ratio of cesium to jet fuel, ten billion pounds of jet fuel over fifty years might have spat ten thousand pounds of cesium into the *entire* biosphere in fifty years. 200 pounds per year spread over the entire surface of the Earth is by *any* measure not a statistical risk worth noting.

The information provided in books and declassified documents-

In everything you posted, you refused to answer the most important and repeatedly asked question: how *MUCH* cesium? "20 billion pounds of JP-7" remains an *entirely* irrelevant metric. How many pounds of *cesium*?

And what was the result of the Russian chemical analysis of the hundreds or thousands of pounds of JP-7 that they got hold of?

 

[Dark Eagle]

These were all in reference to the A-12, not the SR-71. The information available is that the additive was tested on the A-12, but there is no indication that it was used for anything more than testing. There is not any information that suggests it was ever used on the SR-71.
When burned, cesium salts will produce a distinctive spectral signature. A quick look through photos of the SR-71 in afterburner do not show this signature in the exhaust plume.
The A-12 RCS tests used cones attached to the exhausts to simulate use of the additive. So far, there is no indication this was ever done during SR-71 RCS tests.
By the time the SR-71 was operational the additive had a negligible affect on the aircraft's survivability.

There is so far no indication that the additive was ever used for more than tests on the A-12.

I believe Quellish has the best logical answer to the questions regarding the NON-use of cesium additive during SR-71 operations. But my reason for believing this is that it actually makes sense to me by intuition and the fact that I was personally told this by the Air Combat Command Inspector General although I believe my intuition more than I believe the IG because I was their and he wasn't and he surely dose not have the information to the facts that cesium was used ever or he just couldn't say.

When Quellish states "By the time the SR-71 was operational the additive had a negligible affect on the aircraft's survivability." that bears some weight in that it may not have been necessary to use the additive, but I wouldn't put it past them to use it under certain circumstances. That info about the "spectral signature" is way cool! How would it be to have a guy like Quellish working for you? Excellent indeed!

Also, I do believe that cesium was not just tested in the A-12 it was also tested in at least one of the SR-71's in 1966 as stated on page 179 of the Radar Man by Ed Lovick. During the Over Water Test at Elgin AFB he states that "there was some speculation about the possibility that ionization of the residual fuel additive may have contributed to the loss of radar echo."

Weather or not Kelly Johnson was just referring to the A-12's when he said "IT WAS EVENTUALLY A BASIC PART OF OUR CROSS SECTION REDUCTION METHODS." is speculative because the SR-71's were in operation at the time he made that statement. And why was the CIA historian so freaked out about putting that information in his rewrite? I guess that why they call them "spooks".

I may always wonder if they did have some special cesium fuel additive set aside for particular contingencies. It would also be ethical for the DOD to clarify the information about it's use and possible exposures to personnel. These inconsistencies should have been brought up by Ms Jacobsen in her book. To me, that was her number one failure as a journalist. These kinds of things should not leave people guessing.

So, it is obvious that at some time some personnel were exposed to cesium additive in the fuel. Who, what, where, and when is the question for one the most secretive projects known to man.

Orionblamblam,
Sorry I thought I answered that, I would not know those ratios, I did not have a need to know. My responsibilities were to maintain all metal structures and components, rebuild the by-pass door systems by adjusting and setting the door seals, assist preparations for mission readiness and launches, protect my subordinates by training them about hazardous materials and maintaining a safe working environment.
If you say 10 thousand pounds of cesium, OK, that's cool, at 35 per gram, that's $158,757,329.50 for cesium additive. No wonder why they say JP-7 Kerosene was so expensive. Maybe they weren't making it up that the Blackbird's were too expensive to maintain after all.
The heavy metal element surly would have fallen to the Earth again, that is, after it has damage the ionosphere and ozone layer. And then it would primarily be bound by the wind currents to a narrow band of the northern hemisphere. Of course, since it is absorbed by plants and animals it would concentrate in the food chain, eventually ending up in our septic tanks, then back to plants again, and then eaten by animals, which are then eaten by us. I do not know when that cycle ends. By that time we may all be mutant Morlocks feeding off the Eloi just like in the movie "The Time Machine" all because of CESIUM. :-\

 

[Orionblamblam]

I would not know those ratios

Then do you realize that you have NOTHING? Unless you can quantify your arguement, you don;t even *have* an arguement.

The heavy metal element surly would have fallen to the Earth again, that is, after it has damage the ionosphere and ozone layer.

Compare your vague, handwavy and entirely hypothetical cesium injection into the upper atmosphere with the daily injection of heavy metals from platinum to iridium that come screaming in from interplanetary space and get vaporized. I suggest you take a look at how much is being dumped into the atmosphere from purely natural, extraterrestrial sources. The compare to the cesium that frightens you so irrationally.

 

[quellish]

Turns out, cesium and cesium choloride's effects on the body are quite well known. CsCl is actually used medically. The biological half life is fairly short, up to about 150 days. The primary effect is to lower the body's Ph through replacing K in the body. The body does not do a very good job of taking in Cs though, and it takes a lot to have a significant effect. The median lethal dose in mice is 2.3g per kg of body weight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium_chloride
In engineering terms, a buttload.
Other cesium salts have the same net effect. As an athlete, I experience these effects every day.

JP-7 was the first operational "designer fuel". It was specifically engineered for the mission, and as such it's a chemical cocktail of a number of things. JP-7 is made to reduce impurities such as toluene which are more concentrated in other jet fuels. Napthalene, however, is not removed as it is a primary component of the fuel. Cesium salts actuall act as a catalyst with napthalene and break it down relatively quickly, which is one of several reasons it is somewhat unlikely the JP-7 was stored with a cesium-based additive mixed in. Cesium salt in dialkyl phosphite makes the additive more soluable in the hydrocarbon fuel, potentially making this problem worse.

• It's very unlikely that JP-7 was stored for more than hours with the additive mixed in.

• A health-threatening exposure to this additive would require a very large exposure over a short period of time.

• Such an exposure would be have the effect of altering the exposee's body Ph, which any physician would notice and treat immediately.

• Because of the short biological half life of the substance, even chronic exposure would not have direct cumulative effects.

As far as disinformation campaigns and conspiracies, it would seem that someone has been running their own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=JP-7&action=historysubmit&diff=432105738&oldid=424213535

Curiously, this is just one of a dozen examples I can find. Sinister government agents at work using aliases and anonymous edits?

 

[Arjen]

Release large quantities of any of the alkali metals into the biosphere, and you get lots of alkali-metal-oxides.

Eventually, yes. In the process of turning into oxides, any organism close to the process gets burned. I'm not greatly worried about large quantities of elemental alkali metals being released because it's extremely unlikely: it makes about as much sense as releasing large quantities of gold dust. It's a hard job refining the metals from the salts; releasing the fruit of your labours into the open is time-consuming, stupid, costly and environmentally unsound to boot.

Pure elemental cesium added to jet engine exhaust is going to be *hot* elemental cesium until it can find some free oxygen to party with.

As close to immediate as makes no difference.

Cesium salts, on the other hand, will likely just become hot cesium salts... and room temperature cesium salts by the time they encounter *any* multicullular organism

Indeed, the caesium has already done all its reacting.

One of the bad things about caesium in the biosphere is that it replaces potassium in an animal's nervous system. It's a close enough match to infiltrate the animal, it's different enough to seriously disrupt daily business <edit> given high enough doses</edit>. There are worse pollutants around. All the same, something to be avoided.

Radio-active caesium is a killer, but there doesn't seem to be much disagreement about that here and is not relevant to doped fuel. I hope.

 

[Stargazer]

But... we still don't know why Clarence Johnson established a link between cesium used in fuel and reduced radar signature... :

 

[Orionblamblam]

But... we still don't know why Clarence Johnson established a link between cesium used in fuel and reduced radar signature... :

In the past century there have been a lot of experts who have dropped nuggests of mystery, such as Oberth claiming to have had help from aliens. The question that rarely seems to get asked - much less answered - is "do these experts have a sense of humor that would include jerking people around?" Followed shortly by "Would these experts have a reason to want to drop disinformation of their own to throw opponants or competitors onto the wrong trail?"

Many years ago I read a magazine article about Arnold Schwarzenegger and how he liked to play practical jokes. *Apparently,* back when he was naught but a surprisingly successful Austrian bodybuilder, one of his competitors asked him the secret to how just was able to attain his physique. Instead of answers dealing with "genetics" or "steroids," his reply including something along the lines of "every time I work out, I swallow a teaspoon of tablesalt." If memory serves, the article mentioned something about the credulous competitor ending up in the hospital.

Never discount the possibility that your expert is not only innacurate, not only wrong... but he might be *lying.*

 

[bobbymike]

But... we still don't know why Clarence Johnson established a link between cesium used in fuel and reduced radar signature... :

In the past century there have been a lot of experts who have dropped nuggests of mystery, such as Oberth claiming to have had help from aliens. The question that rarely seems to get asked - much less answered - is "do these experts have a sense of humor that would include jerking people around?" Followed shortly by "Would these experts have a reason to want to drop disinformation of their own to throw opponants or competitors onto the wrong trail?"

Many years ago I read a magazine article about Arnold Schwarzenegger and how he liked to play practical jokes. *Apparently,* back when he was naught but a surprisingly successful Austrian bodybuilder, one of his competitors asked him the secret to how just was able to attain his physique. Instead of answers dealing with "genetics" or "steroids," his reply including something along the lines of "every time I work out, I swallow a teaspoon of tablesalt." If memory serves, the article mentioned something about the credulous competitor ending up in the hospital.

Never discount the possibility that your expert is not only innacurate, not only wrong... but he might be *lying.*

Arnold was also great at mind games. In "Pumping Iron" he was faced with a bigger, more muscular Lou Ferrigno. He crushed Lou's spirit talking about how he looked flat and undefined and even flabby. Lou who revered the current Mr. Olympia was devastated by the criticism.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Very good! I always think that more information is better than none even if it's inaccurate.

My inquiries stem from a point of view in protecting people within the framework of the law, the coworkers, under my responsibility, which would also include their children which they could possibly cross contaminate with hazardous materials that they could unknowingly come in contact with.

My responsibilities for the scientific or physiological details of hazardous materials are limited, so I would not attempt to decipher or make a prognosis. My only required knowledge is whether or not agencies like the CDC state if the material is dangerous or not. That in itself only requires my response to "question" and report a "suspicion" of potential hazardous exposures.

When the official responses result with inconsistencies more questions are required.

So far, I conclude that cesium, a dangerous element, was use as a soluble compound as a additive in JP-7.

JP-7 / Cesium additive was used in testing of A-12 and SR-71 aircraft and that documents written by the aircraft builders Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich stated that it was a "IT WAS EVENTUALLY A BASIC PART OF OUR CROSS SECTION REDUCTION METHODS."

I have yet to see any other document with similar gravity state otherwise.

These aircraft leaked fuel profusely, thus exposing personnel by way of direct contact, the inhalation of airborne vapors, and the inhalation of the burning exhaust.

Official documents state that this fuel also contaminated the environment.

Experts, hobbyist, aviation historians, investigative journalist, as well as officials in high command authority have provided exhaustive research in the use of cesium additive in JP-7 to no avail in determining the extent at which the material was used or used whatsoever.

Up to this point only conjecture can be used to determine a hypothesis that at some point in time after testing, that cesium was no longer required.

I am told that thousands of documents have been released by the freedom of information act relating to that program. I have yet to see one reference stating that at some point in time cesium was no longer used.


Mr. Orionblamblam Sir,
It's not an argument, it's only a simple question based on facts to determine the extent of the use of a fuel additive. If you or any other experts know of any documentation in this matter it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for your considerate understanding.

 

[Orionblamblam]

My responsibilities for the scientific or physiological details of hazardous materials are limited, so I would not attempt to decipher or make a prognosis.

"Poisoning the planet."

My only required knowledge is whether or not agencies like the CDC state if the material is dangerous or not.

Sigh.

Hard not to see you as either a full-blown obsessed nut or a troll at this point, since you keep repeating the same patently logically flawed statements.

 

[Byeman]

I am told that thousands of documents have been released by the freedom of information act relating to that program. I have yet to see one reference stating that at some point in time cesium was no longer used.

And from only a few words in those thousands of documents, you conclude that cesium was used on nearly every flight?
Your argument wouldn't hold up in a court of law or under scienitific peer review.

 

[quellish]

...

Err.... was there something about the chemistry that needs further explaining?
To recap the highlights:

- Compounds used in the additive: not particularly harmful
- Additives could not be combined with JP-7 for any length of time
- I like turtles

The first two points are non-negotiable. It's just chemistry.

 

[Orionblamblam]

And from only a few words in those thousands of documents, you conclude that cesium was used on nearly every flight?

This is how conspiracy theories are born. A mountain of evidence of "A," and a few vague lines of evidence of "not-A."

 

[Dark Eagle]

Your missing the point.

We are not talking in terms of accusations, but rather potentials based on very limited information. You may even classify this topic under Socioscience for an understanding, global conservation, environmental ethics. This thread started under the precepts of the Area 51 book review. That book was centered on the "absolutely abhorrent reckless programs" and the proposed "crimes by the Atomic Energy Commission" as well as the "wicked science" as quoted by Ms. Jacobsen.

"Poisoning the planet" could be construed as a potential based on the official information that was released as well as the data provided by the CDC.

Most people are not chemistry scientist or doctors in space physics. This working information is to be dealt with and understood by your average technician, trainee, or perhaps a lowly SR-71 maintenance specialist.

The points made about the "chemistry" I do understand. However, how would you expect the average folks who may be exposed to such materials to understand it. That is why the Hazardous Communication Standards were developed. The smartest instructors are not the ones who know it all but rather the ones who can convey their message at the lowest possible levels.

"- Compounds used in the additive: not particularly harmful"
That's great, if the CDC used those same words. I have read from their source is that cesium is dangerous and their data concerning exposure risk does not include any type cesium used as a additive in fuel. "not particularly harmful" is like saying "not particularly dead" or "not particularly alive".

"- Additives could not be combined with JP-7 for any length of time"
I don't know how or why that would eliminate or reduce exposures to personnel.

As I stated previously, in working in these highly advanced programs it is critical that people understand, learn, and excel in their task. A trainer or supervisor must learn to communicate at a level in which this is accomplished, quick and qualitatively.

My comment is not to make a conclusion or an argument, but a question in search for official information to "fill in the gaps" of a conflicting story full of inconsistencies.

Basically all that is required is to see a document stating the extent at which the material was used and when they stopped using it. If you are interested in clarifying the story and have a knack for aerospace investigative journalism, then lets see what you can find on the subject.

Conspiracies are born from ignorance, lack of communication, and willful dis-information as demonstrated here in the "misquotes out of context" by Orionb.

Orion, Instead of trying to tear apart what you view as an insult to your God like intelligence, try to bring yourself off your pedestal, down to the level of the regular folks. You are obviously a super genius communicating at a savant level. It is very hard for common mortals to understand you. Your one-liners are confusing at best and stink of disinformation (dezinformatsiya), or black propaganda. You may find a reference under Psychological Manipulation.

 

[quellish]

"- Compounds used in the additive: not particularly harmful"
That's great, if the CDC used those same words. I have read from their source is that cesium is dangerous and their data concerning exposure risk does not include any type cesium used as a additive in fuel. "not particularly harmful" is like saying "not particularly dead" or "not particularly alive".

This is the point where there seems to be a misunderstanding. We are not talking about cesium, we are talking about the additive. The additive was a cesium salt - very, very different from elemental cesium.
In reference to cesium salts, your CDC document states:
"Animal studies indicate that cesium is of relatively low toxicity".
"No reports were located regarding adverse effects in humans or animals following acute-, intermediate-, or chronic-duration inhalation or dermal exposure to stable cesium".

"- Additives could not be combined with JP-7 for any length of time"
I don't know how or why that would eliminate or reduce exposures to personnel.

If it cannot be mixed with the fuel for any length of time, it is very unlikely that it was stored mixed with JP-7. This would significantly limit any exposure. It would also make it very unlikely that the additive was part of the JP-7 manufacturing process.

 

[Orionblamblam]

We are not talking in terms of accusations,

"Poisoning the planet"

Instead of trying to tear apart what you view as an insult to your God like intelligence,

Another stock-standard technique straight out of the Truther/Creationist/Generic-Conspiracy-Nut-101 playbook. When someone points out the repeated logical flaws in your arguement, you acuse them of thinking that they are Smarter Than Everyone Else, which is a psychologically useful technique in the attempt to smear people.

try to bring yourself off your pedestal, down to the level of the regular folks.

I would *hope* that regular folks are wise enough to recognize that just because you use hyperbolic language regarding cesium additives being used to "poison the planet" and throw around numbers like "20 billion pounds," the fact that you have so far failed to demonstrate even the slightest facts regarding actual *use* of cesium, and have failed to even try to quantify actual amounts that may have been used demonstrates that your point is... pointless and without merit.

e obviously a super genius communicating at a savant level. It is very hard for common mortals to understand you. Your one-liners are confusing at best and stink of disinformation (dezinformatsiya), or black propaganda. You may find a reference under Psychological Manipulation.

Blah, blah, blah. Take it back to Coast To Coast AM or ATS, where they get off on such rubbish.

 

[bobbymike]

Actually, I come to Secret Projects because of OBB's Godlike intelligence of all things aerospace

There are many on this site who rank very highly on what I will call the "Close to OBB's intelligence scale" I freely admit I'm not one of them. I am just a major enthusiast and an "open source" quasi-expert (use that term very loosely) meaning what I know can be found online, in the library, etc.

 

[sublight]

I'm not ready to call him godlike just yet... He still wont concede its possilbe we have giant LTA platforms sneaking around.....

 

[Orionblamblam]

He still wont concede its possilbe we have giant LTA platforms sneaking around.....

"Possibility" I'll concede. But there is a hell of a gap between "it's possible" and "it's real."

That gap is what separates this forum from wretched hives of scum and credulous villainy: the "Secret Projects" forum should be about what can be verified as real, not what we'd *like* to be real, or "feel" is real. Anything that's *not* *real* should be either avoided, or recognized and acknowledged as *not* *real.*

Is it *possible* that cesium was used in JP-7? Sure. if you want to claim that is *was* used, particularly in quantities and concentrations high enough to pose a health risk to workers and "the planet," you'll need to come up with far more information than just what's needed to prove that it's "possible."

 

[Gridlock]

At the risk of turning this into Yet Another Yet Another Nut thread, there is a fairly substantial body of evidence for giant LTA airframes around CONUS, from (top of my head) airline pilots near restricted airspace in a lightening storm seeing one to numerous law enforcement personnel running around after one. So there's a bit more to it than "feeling" or "wanting" them to be real.


There may not be pictures of Pakistani kids collecting bits of one from a field, but you can only have so many eyewitness reports and (as I think quellish reported) experts who suddenly stop patenting things or publishing papers before theories have to be considered plausible.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Quellish,

When it comes to exposing children "vague" words like "not particularly" and "relatively low" just don't cut it.

Again, the CDC provides limited information but as you have pointed out. But does it not continue to state that more studies are need? And where does it say that JP-7 with the cesium additive was ever tested regarding health effects on humans or animals.

You may also note that it says the basically the same thing about JP-7. But, without any regards to additives.

And again, their data is flawed as to the risk of exposure in not accounting that the material exposures are also by way of jet fuel.

The culture of using top secret materials by-passes oversight by the agencies that provide information in the protection of the public.

The main exposure concern would have been after the aircraft was fueled and prepped for launch, the fuel would drip on the workers, remain on the floor of the hangers. Continually dripping after the missions and throughout the maintenance process.

By mixing the additive shortly before launch, it would only spare anyone involved in the manufacturing process, not the people working on the aircraft.

Orion,

"you'll need to come up with far more information than just what's needed to prove that it's "possible."

That's why I posed the question, I not trying to prove anything I am searching for more information to add what has been released and to help sort out the facts and conflicts.

Your statement about what "is real" is ridiculous. Real to whom? Real to a guy on a hobby blog named Orionblamblam? By the number of post you have made I can surely see that you are a legend among greats, a legend in your own mind.

No, don't tell me, you are Kelly Johnson reincarnated, no, no maybe a CIA Blackbird pilot? or how about someone who dreams of launching top secret aerospace hardware. No, your the guy who tweeks out the inlets, making you the most bad ass launch crew member on the planet. Let us bow at your feet O mighty one. < that's is comical relief, in case you didn't get it. I know some savants lack the ability for a sense of humor.

Intelligence is not what you think you know, it is measured by how you effectively communicate your message. One thing you may try, is to analyze the subject with an open mind, approach it from different perspectives. Clear your mind of bias, do not take sides. Have respect for the communicator no matter how inferior you perceive them, do not assume your view is always correct. Be prepared to asked questions. You might actually learn something, if that's "possible".

 

[Orionblamblam]

Your statement about what "is real" is ridiculous. Real to whom? Real to a guy on a hobby blog named Orionblamblam? By the number of post you have made I can surely see that you are a legend among greats, a legend in your own mind.

Blah, blah, blah. Tell you what: why don't you try again when you have some actual *facts* to back up your claims. Until then... shrug. Just realize that to many of us, you're simply another faceless nut with nothing to offer but baseless claims and pointless insults. I've tried to get you to see that you need more information, but it's clear that you're unreachable. I've said my piece in the defense of realism, and wash my hands of you.

 

[Orionblamblam]

there is a fairly substantial body of evidence for giant LTA airframes around CONUS, from (top of my head) airline pilots near restricted airspace in a lightening storm seeing one to numerous law enforcement personnel running around after one.

Neither of those is really "evidence of giant LTA's," but evidence of "somebody saw something."

Lots of people see things they cannot explain. I have seen three "UFO's" in my time... in the strict sense, flying objects that I could not identify. Two can be explained via fairly mundane ideas; the third... well, it pisses me right the hell off. But the fact that I cannot explain what it was does not mean that I'll grab any explanation that *might* explain it. A loud sound out in the front yard in the middle of the night that cannot be explained via common mundane sources *might* be a crashing flying saucer or a gateway to another dimension or an honest politician spontaneously forming, but very probably not.

Sadly, to too many people "I don't know" is an unacceptible answer, and thus they feel the need to hammer a peg, any peg, into that hole.

 

[quellish]

When it comes to exposing children "vague" words like "not particularly" and "relatively low" just don't cut it.

If you are allowing children near jet fuel, this is more of a Child Services problem than a Centers for Disease Control problem.

Again, the CDC provides limited information but as you have pointed out. But does it not continue to state that more studies are need?

I did not point that out. In fact the opposite is true. CDC, OSHA, and several other organizations have extensive information on cesium salts as well as other alkali metal salts. I have not seen these organizations say that more study of these compounds is needed.

You may also note that it says the basically the same thing about JP-7. But, without any regards to additives.

Additives are mentioned throughout CDC, DOD, and USAF documentation for JP-7 and SENIOR CROWN.

The CDC documentation for JP-7 does mention this several times:

"Jet fuel may also contain low and variable levels of nonhydrocarbon contaminants and additives such as sulfur compounds, gums, alcohols, naphthenic acids, antioxidants, metal deactivators, and icing and corrosion inhibitors (CRC 1984; IARC 1989)."

"Aviation fuels consist primarily of hydrocarbon compounds (paraffins, cycloparaffins or naphthenes, aromatics, and olefins) and contains additives that are determined by the specific uses of the fuel (CRC 1984; Dukek 1978; IARC 1989)."

"Additives such as antioxidants, metal deactivators, fuel system icing inhibitors, corrosion inhibitors, and static dissipator additives are all present in limited quantities in jet fuels in order to improve performance (CRC 1984)."

DOD specifications for JP-7 list allowable concentrations of additives, as well as procedures for using additives outside the 38219D specification. Each procured batch of JP-7 must pass an analysis before it is accepted. That analysis must be forwarded to a specific USAF office, the address is in the specification (the procuring authority). So if JP-7 was produced with the additive mixed in (extremely unlikely), that is where it would be documented.

The culture of using top secret materials by-passes oversight by the agencies that provide information in the protection of the public.

I certainly agree with that in principal, but that does not seem to be the case here. Several toxic exposure lawsuits were filed over illegal disposal practices on classified programs.

This is not the case here. If there were facts that supported your claims, I would be on top of these faster than you can say "mesothelioma". The basic chemistry at work here refutes your hypothesis.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Quellish,

I commend you for your efforts and skills.

Remember the point in providing laws for protections to hazardous materials were developed for the protection of children. Why?

The logic is that most of these materials exhibit medical latencies. Workers exposed to hazardous materials such as Asbestos for example, may not show symptoms for 10-30 years. So in regards to that logic, a worker who started being exposed to it when he was 25 years old, would have 10 - 30 years of productive work remaining in his lifetime.

But, these same workers who were unknowingly exposed to these materials, would typically bring their contaminated clothes home to be laundered. Thus exposing family members including young children. Those exposed children are much more sensitive to toxins, thus the 10 - 30 years latency will be reduced to a fraction of those numbers. Hence, they may never make it to their productive years.

What are the results? We now have thousands upon thousands of asbestos related illnesses and lawsuits. All because of the greedy criminals who hid the facts in their toxic exposures.

It is interesting that you bring up "mesothelioma", because the Blackbirds used a lot of it, and many of the workers were exposed to high concentrations without proper hazardous communications and without protections, many unknowingly brought the material home on their clothing and exposed their children. Another crime of top secret toxic exposures.

You can point out all the details in the world to the defense of the government and it's use of top secret toxins. That fact remains that cesium was a component of the fuel, personnel were exposed to it, and the government will continue to cover it up.

I think the government is always changing these references, why? I can only imagine.

Here is one for JP-7. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp76-c2.pdf

Here is one for cesium- http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp157-c3.pdf

You can see that they pretty much say more studies are needed and known were located.


One would have to be Anti-Veteran or have no clue how many suffer every day and die without proper medical care or compensation from their secret toxic exposures.

Eighteen Military Veterans commit suicide everyday in our country, PSDT is rampant, many are sick without the ability to "prove" the cause of their illness. It's no wonder they are so stressed out.

The shameful amount of red tape and hassles that veterans must wade through is appalling.

Have you ever seen the amount of paperwork required by our veterans who have to file claims for radiation exposures from the Atomic test they were exposed to?

Uncounted veterans were exposed to Agent Orange. Many, while on their death beds must somehow prove their illnesses were related to toxic exposures. Which of course, anyone with a brain knows is impossible to do.

Take for instance the Blue Water Vets who, have claimed to be exposed to leaking agent orange containers on ships, many who have suffered cancers and long since passed away, survivors were notified just this last month to the conclusion that there wasn't enough information available to justify tying their illnesses to exposures to the toxin, 40+ year wait to hear that BS!

Lets not forget about the droves of veterans who were exposed to "low level" radiation (DU) and the grinding dust of Thoriated metals. The government experts are still scratching their heads about that. How much sense does it take to know that radioactive particles blasted all over the place can become airborne and therefor inhaled.

The facts that government agencies exposed personnel and that these exposures cause illnesses should not be a burden of the personnel, it should be the other way around. The government should have the burden to prove that these exposures did not cause illness.

The obvious use of cesium in jet fuel lays to the fact in common sense that personnel were unknowingly exposed to it and that various laws were broken and not complied with. It is the duty by law that the end users reveal the extent of these exposures.

The result will be that the government will continue to deny and lie about details in hope to limit future liabilities when most of the effected are dead and gone. This culture of secret toxic exposures will continue and it's effects will be distrust and dissent by the very people who protect and sacrifice for the freedoms of all.

Those who think the military are just cannon fodder to be used, sacrificed, and disposed of better think again.

One way to look at it could be to see it as your making a car purchase, the dealer wants $20,000, you have $15,000, so you offer him $10,000. You haggle back in forth until you end up at $15,000.

As I stated before I really don't think the cesium was used throughout the program, I don't see the sense in it. But, what I think doesn't mean anything. The certified experts have failed in their responsibility. I am more concern with hard information that says it wasn't used. Why? Because the information released in historic documents states it was used and the government says it was never used. I agree with you "Several toxic exposure lawsuits were filed over illegal disposal practices on classified programs". Why is that, why should that be, it is against all the regulations and laws relating to the whole point of environmental laws to begin with. These are self regulating laws based on ethics and moral standards. There is simply no need to defend against complaints from people who got ill after working in programs that used top secret toxic materials. The mere fact that they were "top secret" proves that they failed to abide by the laws governing hazardous materials communications and Right-to-Know. Even if there never can be a connection to their illness and their possible exposures, they did what our country needed them to do, they should be cared for the rest of their lives.

Ms. Jacobsen points out these exposures in her book. Of course her book contains some silly stories based on interviews, that is what spread the word and put it on the best seller list. What better of a legacy to our Cold War Secret Heroes, to focus on the sacrifices they made and to help change the culture that allows top secret hazardous exposures, to help sick veterans, and to help the love ones they left behind. Yes, we all had a job to do and without question, we relied solely of the trust of our government and superiors. We knew they would protect us. But, now the questions have risen, many are sick, many have died, without answers to those questions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Orion,

It's OK if you don't posses the ability to locate data on the subject. I know I needed information that's why I posed the question. But, don't you think that most of the information on a blog called "Secret Projects" is inherently all speculation by nature?

You can pretty much say every subject here is unproven and not capable of being proven. So in that regards it's all just BS, it means nothing, realism is not a part of it. It's all theory, conjecture, and speculation. It's a place where people of unlimited experiences and backgrounds can make comments and express opinions on a variety of subjects. It's not a court of law. I suggest you just have fun and go with it. No one is going to think your nuts because you like the subject of UFO's. Could it be termed "UFOphobia" - the fear of the subject of UFO's. ~~~~~ It's all good with me, what ever flies your hypersonic. Dark Eagle to Captian Blam Blam ~~~ Over and Out.

 

[quellish]

Remember the point in providing laws for protections to hazardous materials were developed for the protection of children. Why?

The logic is that most of these materials exhibit medical latencies. Workers exposed to hazardous materials such as Asbestos for example, may not show symptoms for 10-30 years. So in regards to that logic, a worker who started being exposed to it when he was 25 years old, would have 10 - 30 years of productive work remaining in his lifetime.

That is largely driven by the biological half life of the material, and how it interacts with the body. Cesium salts have known effects on the body, and a known biological half life. This has already been pointed out.

It is interesting that you bring up "mesothelioma", because the Blackbirds used a lot of it, and many of the workers were exposed to high concentrations without proper hazardous communications and without protections, many unknowingly brought the material home on their clothing and exposed their children. Another crime of top secret toxic exposures.

This is EXACTLY why I mentioned it. The A-12 used asbestos extensively, and it was handled appropriately. CIA obtained waivers for Lockheed to use asbestos on the A-12. Various manuals for A-12 operations cover this, it was never "covered up". For example, rescue crews were told to wear asbestos protection when responding to an A-12 crash.

You can point out all the details in the world to the defense of the government and it's use of top secret toxins. That fact remains that cesium was a component of the fuel, personnel were exposed to it, and the government will continue to cover it up.

You're missing my point. The compounds used are not particularly hazardous. I am not at all defending the government, I am pointing you to the science.

I think the government is always changing these references, why? I can only imagine.

Here is one for JP-7. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp76-c2.pdf

Here is one for cesium- http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp157-c3.pdf

You can see that they pretty much say more studies are needed and known were located.

I do not see that at all. Both of these documents have extensive animal data. I only see "more studies are needed" in reference to radioactive isotopes of cesium, not cesium chloride.

Lets not forget about the droves of veterans who were exposed to "low level" radiation (DU) and the grinding dust of Thoriated metals. The government experts are still scratching their heads about that. How much sense does it take to know that radioactive particles blasted all over the place can become airborne and therefor inhaled.

"Sense" is not science.

 

[SOC]

To look at this logically, even if the CIA used cesium-enhanced fuel to lower OXCART's RCS, it makes no sense whatsoever to bother with it on the SR-71A. The A-12 was conceived as the next manned reconnaissance platform to overfly the USSR. Eisenhower's ban changed that, helping the D-21 program along (there's another one for you, thorium in the D-21's engines), and pretty much guaranteeing that the OXCART and R-12/SR-71A would never be used to overfly a legitimately threatening environment. The SR-71A rarely flew over hostile terrain (Libya in '86 was an example), so using cesium-enhanced JP-7 just for the hell of it makes no sense. Maybe you store some of it somewhere (the additive) for use if required if WWIII had started and they were doing BDA flights over the USSR, but the SIOP mission alone dictates that using it in peacetime is ridiculous. Why give the enemy your true RCS when flying during peacetime in international airspace? Nobody else has the capability to touch you, be it Libya, the DPRK, or Vietnam, for example (nor even China at that point), so why even bother? Nobody can prove that USAF Blackbirds used cesium-enhanced fuel operationally, only that the CIA thought about it and did test it for the A-12. Maybe the reason you don't hear about it has nothing to do with yet another government conspiracy theory, and more to do with operational realities.

And Scott, I know what Silverplate was, do I get bonus points? I've even got a signed photo of Paul leaning out of the cockpit window of #31 after landing following "The Event" ;D

 

[Orionblamblam]

And Scott, I know what Silverplate was, do I get bonus points?

Well... no. "Silverplate" should be as obscure around these here parts as "Tacit Blue" or "Archangel." *Especially* considering that if you simply type it into the search box on Wiki there's a nice fat article on it.

On the other hand, good points about the lack of need for cesium-additives. I've always kinda questioned the true stealthiness of the SR-71... even if it was radar-invisble, anything blasting along at 80,000 feet and Mach 3 is going to be lit up like a Christmas tree at Al Gore's house on infrared. At the very least the Soviets would have *heard* the thing; I've only ever heard one SR-71 at speed and altitude, and I thought sure that it was Denver getting nuked.

I've even got a signed photo of Paul leaning out of the cockpit window of #31 after landing following "The Event" ;D

Actual autograph? Niiicccccce!

 

[SOC]

On the other hand, good points about the lack of need for cesium-additives. I've always kinda questioned the true stealthiness of the SR-71... even if it was radar-invisble, anything blasting along at 80,000 feet and Mach 3 is going to be lit up like a Christmas tree at Al Gore's house on infrared. At the very least the Soviets would have *heard* the thing; I've only ever heard one SR-71 at speed and altitude, and I thought sure that it was Denver getting nuked.

The IR issue is obvious. That's why I've always taken the Aurora rumors with a grain of salt, especially when the jet is credited as being stealthy. As for the Blackbird's RCS properties, a lot of the work stemmed from trying to defeat blip-scan radar systems in use during the late 50s. When they discovered TALL KING, that kinda went out the window. That was probably part of the impetus for KEMPSTER. At any rate, regardless of the RCS achieved, it still stands as the original purpose-built radar-stealth plane. I've heard RCS figures ranging from the 1 meter to the 10 meter range, and any of those are certainly achievements to be proud of for something that size.

Actual autograph? Niiicccccce!

Hand signed by one of the few men Curtis LeMay was probably jealous of.

 

[Dark Eagle]

Quellish that's cool, I understand you know the science of the particulars.

Particulars that are speculative on what information that is available about a top secret program in that only limited amounts of data have been released.

I'm talking about attitudes that develop cultural awareness. Intuitiveness in understanding of what is not black and white, knowing without proof.

It is speculative that you know the types of and the extent of the materials that people were exposed to. You based your information on what Ed Lovick stated in his book, without regards to the fact that he may not have had a need to know and that his boss Kelly Johnson who most certainly did have a need to know stated that cesium was eventually used as a basic part of the cross section reduction method. You say it's not particularly harmful, but would you exposed your own child to it everyday for 10 years?

You said you read about the "appropriate use" of asbestos. But, like that information as well as other data, what is written is not fact. All of this declassified data was examined and censored before approval. It's not the reality, the reality is my Air Force bother gasping for every breath while fumbling for his oxygen valve. The reality is my friend, a J58 mechanic who lost all cognitive ability and memory of his own children before his brain was eaten to death by a fast growing tumor. Reality is my coworker who without prior symptoms was told that he needed emergency surgery due to stage 4 prostrate cancer. Reality is that many more of these illnesses go unchecked because the knowledge of these hazardous exposures was kept top secret and even after the information was declassified that information was kept hidden from those people.

The laws are very strict in the use of asbestos. Did you observe the maintenance procedures during the fabrication and repair process? Don't believe everything you read. It would be really cool to have had you spend a month working in the program.

Your technical knowledge and enthusiasm is fantastic! Many times I've had excellent personnel with incredible backgrounds, Master Instructors, Mathematical Whizzes, highly skilled technicians with amazing talents of dexterity and ingenuity. Gifted problem solvers who could come up solutions and design tools on the spot.

But, after an exhaustive week or two in the Blackbird world, they would be speechless by the multitudes of task and responsibilities needed to get those birds in the air. That is why I give so much credit to intuitiveness. Knowledge and skills are just a part of it. If we had to go by the book and regulations in repairing and prepping those Blackbirds for missions, they would not leave the ground. Only certain personnel after close observation after many months were awarded the SEI to work the Blackbirds, intuition was a positive trait required but not written. Like the aircrews themselves, they could pass all the test but their final test was at the approval of their peers based on intuition.

Have you ever read how the Pilots and RSO's would be matched up. During the stress of missions they knew intuition, it is said they could read each others thoughts.

It's very good to know all the details but making it all work is all together a different story. What I would really like to know is your perspective on intuition?

What would your intuition be on a public report by an "ethically based journalist" < LOL, demanding the government to publish the details in the extent and use of cesium in JP-7 in a major rag above the fold? Something that guys like D. Day or A. Jacobsen lack the ethics to do.

 

[Lauge]

It is speculative.....

And your conclusions are not?

.....would you exposed your own child to it everyday for 10 years?

So you're claiming they flew in the local kindergarden to help refuel the Blackbirds?

The reality is my friend, a J58 mechanic who lost all cognitive ability and memory of his own children before his brain was eaten to death by a fast growing tumor. Reality is my coworker who without prior symptoms was told that he needed emergency surgery due to stage 4 prostrate cancer.

Do/did these friends smoke? How are/were their eating habits? How much alcohol do/did they drink? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you assume that these incidents, tragic as they are, are causally linked to your friends' work on the Blackbird and its systems.

Reality is that many more of these illnesses go unchecked because the knowledge of these hazardous exposures was kept top secret and even after the information was declassified that information was kept hidden from those people.

Again: What evidence is available that these illnesses are causally related to work-related exposure to hazardous substances?

That is why I give so much credit to intuitiveness.

Facts beat intuition hands down.

If we had to go by the book and regulations in repairing and prepping those Blackbirds for missions, they would not leave the ground.

So the regulations were deliberately ignored?

What I would really like to know is your perspective on intuition?

I'm sorry, but how is Quellish's "perspective on intuition", or anyone else's, relevant to the current discussion?

Please note that I am not defending "the government" here. As Preacher Book said in "Serenity": "A government is a body of people, usually, notably ungoverned". But as stated above: Facts beat intuition. Think of this as me playing devil's advocate.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

 

[sublight]

Cesium in the beef!!!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/07/12/japan.radioactive.cows/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I'm sorry... I had to.... B)