Vought (LTV) A-7 Corsair II Projects

[Triton]

Fascinating stuff.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

On my last visit to the Vought Archives, I copied the following drawings of the two A-7X variants being looked at - the single engine F-101 DFE and the twin engine F404 Dry version (V-529).

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[ReccePhreak]

Greetings All -

On my last visit to the Vought Archives, I copied the following drawings of the two A-7X variants being looked at - the single engine F-101 DFE and the twin engine F404 Dry version (V-529).

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Cool drawings, thanks!

It would be interesting, but a real challenge, to convert a 1/48 A-7 model into the twin F404 version.

Larry

 

[italian_o]

It would be interesting, but a real challenge, to convert a 1/48 A-7 model into the twin F404 version.

Larry

I did it in 1/48, look this link: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,21674.0.html
I have NEVER completed the conversion, maybe this year I will complete the job....

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a038455.pdf

INTRODUCTION

The Airborne Light Optical Fiber Technology (ALOFT) demonstration was sponsored
by the Naval Air System Command (AIR-360) to show the feasibility of using fiber
optics on an airborne military platform and to determine if fiber optics could lower the
overall cost or improve the overall performance of military systems.
When signals in an avionics environment ire transferred electrically, there is found
to be potential operational degradation and damage due to the susceptibility of metallic
conductors to elect romiagnetic interference, radio-frequency interference, lightning strikes,
and nuclear-generated electromagnetic pulses. Other sources of electronic interference such
as crosstalk, ground-looping, reflection, and short-circuit loading also affect system operation.
When an electro-optical interface is used to transfer signals, information is transmitted
through bundles of glass fibers called fiber-optic cables. Because of the dielectric nature of
glass, the bundles are immune to electrical interference and are unaffected by electbonic conduction
problems. Because of these attributes and the high-bandwidth capabilities of fiberoptic
cables, multiplexing can be used reliably in a fiber-optic system. Multiplexing reduces
the number of the required signal paths and the complexity of cable connectors. The resulting
enhancement of system performance and the savings of space and weight may make fiberoptic
technology highly cost effective for avionic systems.


PARTICIPANTS

The ALOFT project began in March 1974 when NAVAIR assigned NELC the responsibility
for conducting the fiber-optic investigation. The project came to an end in February
1977 after more than 107 flight-test hours of the fiber-optic A-7 system had been conducted
by Naval Weapons Center (NWC), China Lake, California.
NELC was tasked by NAVAIR to manage the ALOFT project and to perform evaluation
tests on fiber-optic components. IBM, Federal Systems Division, Owego, New York,
performed the system design, fabrication, and integration. Ling-Temnco-Vought (LTV),
Vought Systems Division, Dallas, Texas, developed an installation plan and performed the
initial system ground tests. The Naval Weapons Center, China Lake, California, supplied the
necessary software for the system, safety-of-flight verification, and the flight test facilities
for the ALOFT demonstration. NWC also installed the ALOFT system in the aircraft and
performed ground and flight testing. The Naval Air Test Center (NATC), Patuxent River.
Maryland, evaluated the reliability and maintainability of the system. Emi and lightning susccptibility
tests were performed by LTV, McDonnell Aircraft Company, and personnel of
the Flight Dynamics Laboratory, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. McDonnell Aircraft
Company, using data and analyses supplied by the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey,
California, executed an economic analysis of the ALOFT system.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

YA-7F spin test model

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/20-Foot_Spin_Tunnel_(645)_Models_and_Tests_A-M#YA-7F_Strikefighter

 

[Bill S]

Low Speed Wind Tunnel model of a two seat strike fighter.
It has strakes, Pave Penny, UHTs still original configuration
and a large dorsal box for the refueling receptacle.
Photos VAHF


bill

 

[Bill S]

Here are some drawings of the A-7K with the GE F-110 engine installation that was proposed in 1984.
There is not a V number or A-7F associated with this proposal. VAHF Archives



These are a simple general arrangement.
Inboard profile
Detail of the engine installation

 

[Bill S]

Here are the slides of the A-7D with the GE F-110 engine proposal, VAHF archives


General arrangement
Inboard profile
Engine installation

 

[Bill S]

One of the biggest benefits to the GE F-110 installation was all that thrust.
The attached chart shows the benefits of that power plant over the TF-41.


Sustained speed while jinking was an important improvement.
I had a fighter pilot tell me that "after two turns you could pop them like a grape".

 

[Sundog]

Thanks Bill, I didn't even know these earlier versions (Earlier than the YA-7F) even existed.

 

[hesham]

Nice find Bill.

 

[martinbayer]

A university study for a Strut Braced Wing demonstrator using a re-winged A7 aircraft that was proposed to NASA Langley: http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/AOE275SBW.pdf

Martin

 

[Bill S]

A few photos that I came across in the Vought Heritage Collection.
This illustrates configuration 4J of the FLIR/LST aerodynamic shape
testing on YA-7D 67-14582. It appears that this was to support
the Hughes FLIR that was later canceled leading to the development
and incorporation of the Texas Instruments FLIR pod on the A-7 series.

Of course the LST would later be featured on the bottom of the USAF A-7
engine air intakes called Pave Penny. This would make for an interesting
model along with the long air data probe that was installed on the same
aircraft.

I have been unsuccessful thus far in finding any engineering reports related
to this testing. It would be interesting to read what effects the shapes had
on speed and handling of the A-7.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Good Day All -

To go with Bill's previous postings of re-engined A-7 proposals, LTV proposed the use of the F118 in the A-7D.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Good Day All -

A few more to go with Bill's A-7 re-engined F110 proposal.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Steve Pace]

I find it interesting how the subsonic A-7A evolved into the supersonic A-7F which, in some ways, was the rebirth of the original supersonic F8U which evolved into the A-7A. Talk about coming full circle. -SP

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi Steve -

I'm fascinated too with the F/A-7 designation.....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[fightingirish]

For the "F/A-7" designation you just need a powerful radar (APG-65) and some other electronics to cover the air to air combat role.

 

[stimpy75]

some more pics i have found in the web



and the side where i found them
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1crb2b74iebvlbjed8u0be95v4&topic=968.0;all

 

[Bill S]

some more pics i have found in the web



and the side where i found them
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1crb2b74iebvlbjed8u0be95v4&topic=968.0;all

I have seen those before, like on this forum. B)

 

[Bill S]

How about a BQM-34 launching two seat A-7H?
Opens up a number of interesting questions: what would be used to counter the weight,
would the BQM-34 be used to carry Maverick missiles, would the rear seat have been set
up as a drone controller? VAHF drawing.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

some more pics i have found in the web



and the side where i found them
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1crb2b74iebvlbjed8u0be95v4&topic=968.0;all

I have seen those before, like on this forum. B)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15851.0.html has one.

 

[Archibald]

Vough proposed an A-7E "French Navy" (A-7E Export) with French carrier suitability (catapult, nose gear tow)

It was proposed with Aerospatiale in 1972.

I have some details, if you want.

There is an interesting connection. We all know that the A-7A and A-7B USN variants had the TF-30. When the Air Force got A-7, they asked Allison to licence-build the RR Spey, as the TF-41. The USN loved the idea, and the A-7E got TF-41, too.
Except the 67 first A-7E, who kept their TF-30 as the TF-41 was not ready (at least according to Wikipedia, but Baugher confirms this).

Now the interesting thing is, on its quest to build the M53, SNECMA spent seven years working on the TF-30. The engine flew between 1964 and 1971 in varied aircrafts
- Mirage III-T
- Mirage III-V VSTOL (01 and 02)
- Mirage F2
- Mirage G
and the aborted Mirage F3.

the final product, the TF-306E, was massively powerful but was dropped in 1969 and SNECMA was told to develop the M53 instead.

Do you get my point ? since SNECMA had all this experience working on TF-30
and
since early batches of A-7E still had the TF-30
a good case coud be make that Aerospatiale A-7E may very well had TF-30, more exactly a non afterburning TF-306E.

this is just speculative, but it makes a lot of sense.

The timeline work: the Mirage F2 stopped flying in 1970, while the Mirage G crashed in January 1971. Aerospatiale proposal was made in 1972, when TF-306E memories at SNECMA were still fresh.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/newa7_5.html

The Navy was sufficiently impressed with the increased power offered by the Spey, and decided to use this engine for its own version of the Corsair II. The designation A-7E was assigned, and this version was to succeed the A-7A in production. However, there were delays in the deliveries of the TF41-A-2 engine specified for the A-7E, so the first 67 aircraft of the order were delivered with the TF30-P-5 engine. These aircraft had all of the other improvements planned for the A-7E, including the improved avionics and the M61 rotary cannon, and were redesignated A-7C after delivery.

 

[circle-5]

Vought proposed an A-7E "French Navy" (A-7E Export) with French carrier suitability (catapult, nose gear tow)

It was proposed with Aerospatiale in 1972.

To help win the contract, Vought put some of these models on the desks of Marine Nationale procurement officers. I'm sure there were some Super-Etendard models right behind them, trying to shoot them down ...

 

[Archibald]

Interestingly enough, Vought seemed to have been in touch with Dassault in 1968 (Mirage G / V-507 connection) AND Aerospatiale in 1969 (former sud Aviation) for helicopters.
http://www.vought.org/special/html/shelicopter.html

Looks like Vought sold Gazelles, Dauphins and Alouettes in the United States.

The A-7E offer related to Aerospatiale, and now I understand better how the two companies knew each other - through that helicopter deal...
http://www.vought.org/special/html/shelicopter.html

Surely enough, the aerospace world was already pretty small by then.

also Vought had a relation with France since 1939 and the V-156F "wind indicators" followed by F-4U in 1952 and Crusaders in 1964. The A-7E certainly looked like the next logical step.
What Vought got wrong was the company. They should have stuck with Dassault for the A-7E deal, but then again both Jaguar and Mirage 5 were A-7 competitors (Switzerland), so bad idea.

But Aerospatiale was hardly better.
In recent years Le Fana de l'aviation has dug a lot of documents that make clear that from 1964 De Gaulle wanted Dassault for combat aircrafts and state-owned companies for everything else, bar combat aircrafts. Whatever atempts did public companies to move back into the combat aircraft market was thwarted (Breguet was private company, and the Jaguar was different, although Dassault finally ate them for dinner in 1971...)
Among varied examples
- Sud Aviation atempt to bring back the SO-4050 Vautour circa 1965 for Israel (Tsyklon)
was killed by Mirage F2 and even a proposal for Mirage IV
- Sud Aviation Alpha Jet bid (1972)
- Sud Aviation A-7E
Other atempts by Nord Aviation were rejected, too.
All rejected and buried.

 

[Silencer1]

Hello, Bill S!

Opens up a number of interesting questions: what would be used to counter the weight,

Thanks for sharing!

I wonder, if the drone with it's wing requires counterweight - at least at flight. From other hand, during taxiing and take-off it's weight should be taken into account. What's the weight of BQM-34, did you know?

 

[Sundog]

Hello, Bill S!

Opens up a number of interesting questions: what would be used to counter the weight,

Thanks for sharing!

I wonder, if the drone with it's wing requires counterweight - at least at flight. From other hand, during taxiing and take-off it's weight should be taken into account. What's the weight of BQM-34, did you know?

The weight might have been an issue at rest; maybe they used differential fueling in the wing tanks to counterbalance it until they were flying, as the drones wings should be able to support it once they're in flight. In which case the fuel could be transferred to balance out between the wings before launch.

 

[RAP]

AWST article from 1977 on twin engine A-7.

 

[litzj]

AWST article from 1977 on twin engine A-7.

Idea is interesting but, without changing inlet-duct, reality of proposal is questionable for two F404.

Or if proposal were accepted, modification is not limited in rear-fuselage.

 

[Archibald]

I had never quite realized that the two YAF-7F were rebuild A-7Ds. Nor that the 307 A-7F were to be rebuild Corsair II and now new aircraft.
Pretty rare, to turn subsonic aircraft into supersonic ones. Prototypes, it is already difficult enough, but reworking entire production runs ?
I wonder if the A-7 could do that because of its Crusader legacy.
Supersonic > subsonic > supersonic ? no problem.

 

[Manolis]

Vought proposed an A-7E "French Navy" (A-7E Export) with French carrier suitability (catapult, nose gear tow)

It was proposed with Aerospatiale in 1972.

To help win the contract, Vought put some of these models on the desks of Marine Nationale procurement officers. I'm sure there were some Super-Etendard models right behind them, trying to shoot them down ...

The "French Navy" A-7 , was planned to use exocet antiship missiles and Magic AA missiles!

 

[Archibald]

(thump !) 'was the sound of my jaw hitting the ground, Wile E. Coyote -style.

What a beauty ! Welcome to the forum Manolis.

 

[Manolis]

(thump !) 'was the sound of my jaw hitting the ground, Wile E. Coyote -style.

What a beauty ! Welcome to the forum Manolis.

Thank you Archibald!

 

[Archibald]

Just to ask, are you French by any mean ?

 

[Manolis]

No, not at all. Just Corsair II fan!!!

 

[apparition13]

World Airpower Journal (vol. 2, summer 1990) has a short article on the YA-7F. From the article, it looks like in the early 1980s Vought proposed two projects for interntional operators:

1. International Corsair II; with night attack sensors and weapons, and new avionics, and

2. International Corsair III: stretched to fit the F110, with maneuvering flaps, and new digital avionics.

Does anyone have any more information about these proposals?

The article goes on to say that in 1985 the AF issued an RFI for a CAS/BAI aircraft since they didn't think the A-10 would be survivable in 'AirLand Battle'. It looks like IC2 became the LANA upgrade, while IC3 became the A-7 Strikefighter, which was renamed A-7plus, then YA-7F when it became hardware, with additional upgrades and a bay able to accommodate both the F100-PW220 and F110. The new engines would allow it to sustain 7Gs.

The article is written while flight tests were ongoing, so it doesn't answer my second question, what was the actual maximum speed of the F? I've read M1.2, but also M1.1 low level and M1.6 (or even 1.8) at altitude. Does anyone know what the tested flight envelope of the YA-7F was? Did they explore the entire envolope? If not, what were the estimates?

And for a third, I've read (somewhere, I don't remember where) that the A-7F would have been a little inferior to and F-18 in a dogfight, but nothing else about what it's dogfighting performance would be, and certainly nothing on it's demonstrated ability. Does anyone have anything more on the A-7F as a dogfighter, and how it would have compared to it's contemporaries?

 

[Sundog]

The YA-7F the recycled jet.

 

[velithcoigor]

I don't know.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Sperry ILAAS thread.