Vought Advanced Programs - Canard Delta Design

[Mark Nankivil]

Good Day All -

I recently received a bundle of Vought drawings (huge thanks to Bill S for courier duties!) which include drawings from the Advanced Programs group. I'll start off with this canard delta with an F8U-3 front end. Have no idea what program this was for....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[litzj]

Thx for sharing. It is interesting that armament is attached at canard

Main delta wing and vertical tail is similar to that of Mirage series

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Looks like there is a bit of dihedral in the canard. As I recall, there was a relationship between Vought and Dassault so a bit of DNA from both sides would likely show up at some point in designs.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Dynoman]

Its showing a launch bar so I'm assuming it continues on in its naval heritage as a navy fighter design. The drawing says 1969. The F-8 had already been deployed to the French carriers by this time and the US Navy's replacement fleet defense fighter was the F-4, which the French carriers could not support. This design could very well be a design for the French F-8 replacement. The French were developing new carriers in the early 1970s (same timeframe as the drawing), so these could have been designs to operate aboard their new carriers and extend Vought's production of the F-8 line.

Also, this is the same timeframe for VFX. Vought partnered with Dassault on the Vought V-507 using the Mirage G swing wing for its US Navy fighter entry. Vought's record during this time with its F-8 was substantial. Maybe the design was an early Vought concept for VFX.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Definitely has a whiff of F8U-3 welded to Mirage III parts.

 

[hesham]

Oh my God,

you made my day,thank you my dears Mark and Bill.

 

[TomcatViP]

Notice:
- folding wing tips on Delta
- F8U-3 fuselage
- Mirage III vertical tail

I guess the theory that they tried to make an F8U-3 able to operate from smaller French carriers led them to discard the F8 wing and tail config and replace it with a canard delta and Mirage vertical tail to get higher wing surface, better alpha configuration during trapping sequence and ability to park on lower hanguars below deck while still getting better overall results in term of the impact on the performances than increasing simply the wing span and shortening the tail.

 

[litzj]

Notice:
- folding wing tips on Delta
- F8U-3 fuselage
- Mirage III vertical tail

I guess the theory that they tried to make an F8U-3 able to operate from smaller French carriers led them to discard the F8 wing and tail config and replace it with a canard delta and Mirage vertical tail to get higher wing surface, better alpha configuration during trapping sequence and ability to park on lower hanguars below deck while still getting better overall results in term of the impact on the performances than increasing simply the wing span and shortening the tail.

they already had experience of operating F-8 in Clemenceau Class carrier; probably there is no reason to discard conventional F-8 Wing

 

[TomcatViP]

this thing is heavier

(and we don't know if the sketches are legit)

 

[Bill S]

this thing is heavier

(and we don't know if the sketches are legit)

They are mylar drawings mostly by Secoy from the Vought Collection that were donated to GSLAaSM. (I think that has all the letters!)
Now if they were just whimsical sketches or working towards a concept you might be able to argue that.
Having a production type break down leads to the thinking that is was more than just a pretty sketch.

bill

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A production breakdown implies it got as far as preparation of a brochure proposal to me, and a study (with Dassault?) for French Navy (F-8 followon?) seems plausible. Its a bit late for VFX.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

If a predesign group isn't kept busy by being assigned sensible things to do, they get creative.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Absolutely, Tommy. The VFX contract was awarded to Grumman in February 1969. Vought's V-507 design had already lost that one. This is from June 1969.

 

[LowObservable]

I see a whiff of Viggen in there. Low wing, high fixed foreplane with flaps. However, the Viggen's compound sweep on the main wing was an important feature, because otherwise the canard flow caused a loss of efficiency at the main wing apex - so for the same area, it was better to shorten the apex and increase the span.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Only inasmuch as pre-fly-by-wire, stable canard deltas (1960s through early 70s) almost always feature fixed foreplanes with flaps. A low wing is pretty typical for a delta and unless you want to play with vortex flow over the wing, a low wing forces a high canard.

 

[Hanse]

I see a whiff of Viggen in there. Low wing, high fixed foreplane with flaps. However, the Viggen's compound sweep on the main wing was an important feature, because otherwise the canard flow caused a loss of efficiency at the main wing apex - so for the same area, it was better to shorten the apex and increase the span.

That is one aircraft I always wondered why it didn't sell more. As a kid in elementary school, when I first saw the aircraft in an old C.B. Colby book, I thought it was the most futuristic aircraft I'd ever seen.

 

[TomcatViP]

The fixed canard is there for AoA, mainly during landing or T.O adding slow speed handling. Fixed canards provides vortex above the wing surface at a predetermined AoA range. A small delta fighter with no other pitch ctrl surface is not an high AoA airplane.

 

[Sundog]

The fixed canard is there for AoA, mainly during landing or T.O adding slow speed handling. Fixed canards provides vortex above the wing surface at a predetermined AoA range. A small delta fighter with no other pitch ctrl surface is not an high AoA airplane.

It's also there to minimize supersonic trim drag.

 

[Archibald]

In 1969 the surviving French Crusaders were re-winged, and there were already talks about replacing them. Plus the aforementionned Dassault- Vought connection which was in full swing that year (lame pun assumed).

 

[LowObservable]

PMM - The Viggen-ish feature that I noticed was that the canard is relatively large and close-coupled, which suggests that the designers were trying to exploit rather than minimize the canard-wing interaction.

Sferrin - It was relatively big and expensive and neither the AJ nor JA variants made much claim to being multi-role.

 

[TomcatViP]

In 1969 the surviving French Crusaders were re-winged, and there were already talks about replacing them. Plus the aforementionned Dassault- Vought connection which was in full swing that year (lame pun assumed).

It has been suggested to me by Maiwand1880 that the tow bar prevent it from being a design destined to the Fr navy (Fr navy used Bridles at the time).
I have a hard time believing this to be for the USN, but perhaps the Aussies would have love that?

 

[Deltafan]

Good Day All -

I recently received a bundle of Vought drawings (huge thanks to Bill S for courier duties!) which include drawings from the Advanced Programs group. I'll start off with this canard delta with an F8U-3 front end. Have no idea what program this was for....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Very interesting drawings. Thanks a lot !

 

[kcran567]

xf8uCrusader III, Canard, Mirage III