Vickers FV433 chassis as a base for derivatives systems?

[Pioneer]

G'day all.
Just been some research into the Vickers 'Falcon' 30mm SPAAG program, in doing so Im just wondering if Vickers or other defence manufactures for that matter considered using the FV433 Abbot SPH chassis as the basis for other derivatives? It seems a good and versatile chassis for what it is, it's dimensions and weight.....
As a side note if I may, does anyone know if other armies considered/trialed the FV433 Abbot SPH, other than the Indian Army?

Thanks in advance

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Fluff]

they were all members of the FV432 APC family, 433 was the artillery member of the family, some APC still in use, looks just like an M113

 

[Pioneer]

Thank you for your reply Fluff.
I appreciate the heritage of the FV433 Abbot design in relation to the FV432, but was curious just the same, given SPH chassis appear to be the basis of other roles/missions.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[JohnR]

Wasn't there a proposal to fit a Saladin turret to the 433 or 432 chassis? Was the 433 roof cut down compared to the 432?

 

[Petrus]

Here is a cut-out from "AFV Weapons Profile 51. Abbot FV433 Self-Propelled Gun" by Christopher F. Foss.

Piotr

 

[Fluff]

Wasn't there a proposal to fit a Saladin turret to the 433 or 432 chassis? Was the 433 roof cut down compared to the 432?

I believe this morphed into scorpion, at a much lighter weight. A 433 with a 76mm is going to be a bit light on armament
, also would assume scorpion as better value for money.

 

[Fluff]

Thank you for your reply Fluff.
I appreciate the heritage of the FV433 Abbot design in relation to the FV432, but was curious just the same, given SPH chassis appear to be the basis of other roles/missions.

Regards
Pioneer

If you exclude all the 432 versions, swingfire etc, I don’t recall any abbot versions, except there was the simplified version, for export, did India buy some?
I guess British army had all the centurions to use up in this period, as chieftains came on line, plus all the 432 for command etc.
AA gun is probably the most likely, we had the turret that fitted many mbt, and sold only to Finland, Instead U.K. relied upon towed bofors, until tracked rapier/Iran revolution combined to give them to the British army.

 

[Foo Fighter]

They fitted to Fox turret to some AFV 432. That's about it. http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com/2015/11/some-notes-on-british-berlin-brigade-of.html

 

[TomS]

Wasn't there a proposal to fit a Saladin turret to the 433 or 432 chassis? Was the 433 roof cut down compared to the 432?

I believe this morphed into scorpion, at a much lighter weight. A 433 with a 76mm is going to be a bit light on armament
, also would assume scorpion as better value for money.

Well, certainly with THAT 76mm. Maybe one more like the gun in the AMX-13 (and preferably the later 90mm version) would have made a lot more sense.

 

[Fluff]

The aussies got it all mixed up, and fitted saladin turrets to M113, then scorpion turrets.

 

[uk 75]

Here is a cut-out from "AFV Weapons Profile 51. Abbot FV433 Self-Propelled Gun" by Christopher F. Foss.

Piotr

The Vickers 13 ton tank proposal was discussed on another thread years ago. There is a recently published book on British armoured vehicles which may help on this and the question of Abbot as opposed to FV432 detivatives. Cant find my copy at the moment.
Value Engineered Abbot was sold to India and some were used by the Brits for training in Canada.
I think Falcon was aimed at India and UK but India had ZSU23-4 and the Brits prefered missiles.

 

[Pioneer]

They fitted to Fox turret to some AFV 432. That's about it. http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com/2015/11/some-notes-on-british-berlin-brigade-of.html

Sort of made sense adopting the FV432, as most nations did with their APC's in one form or another....
The layout of the Abbot, with its turret ring and all made me think it would have been adopted more easily than the FV432....saying this, does anyone know what the turret ring size of the FV433 was?

Thanks Foo Fighter

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Foo Fighter]

Most welcome, I had not seen that site before so I got something out of that too. The FV 432 was a victim of it's time really, service extended beyond logic and that turret added to compete with MICV's when it was only a battle taxi imho. When I signed for my last a MK 1-1 petrol powered ambulance in 1981, the engine had already been condemned for two years and was a right sod in use. Maintenance time was off the charts and effectively more money on that than a replacement should have cost. Of course, these acquisition programs pull up their own issues which I shall not mention now. 01 EA 01 from memory, I have no pictures left after many house moves, job moves etc.

 

[uk 75]

There was a Peak proposal for a much simpler Rarden mounting which was trialed on an M113 and would have been fitted like the Ferret turret on the Aden conversion shown elsewhere. It looked a bit like 20mm mount on a Marder but compacter. I am not sure where I saw it. I think it was in an old copy of Defense Review International from about 1970. Cant find it anywhere online.

 

[Grey Havoc]

They fitted to Fox turret to some AFV 432. That's about it. http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com/2015/11/some-notes-on-british-berlin-brigade-of.html

Sort of made sense adopting the FV432, as most nations did with their APC's in one form or another....
The layout of the Abbot, with its turret ring and all made me think it would have been adopted more easily than the FV432....saying this, does anyone know what the turret ring size of the FV433 was?

Thanks Foo Fighter

Regards
Pioneer

A little bit of info on the 'Fox in a Box' can be found in the video below (timestamped link):

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ull0ng9zhHI&t=11m37s


The FV432/30 was created in response to GSR 3165 (issued in February 1968, MVEE had been ordered to carry out feasibility studies as far back as November 1966), which was originally intended to create a vehicle with the firepower of an IFV but the crew compliment of an APC. However, the Army was not that impressed with the result, so GSR 3165 quickly evolved in the early 1970s into a more specialised requirement to provide a AFV for street patrols for the Berlin Brigade that would be 'less provocative' than having to have Chieftains provide support for such patrols all the time (apparently the Soviets were somewhat hypocritically complaining a lot). Around twenty AFV 432s at most (out of a initially planned 550 production vehicles, there having been three prototypes proceeding) were so converted and supplied to the Berlin Brigade. Post-Cold War and the disbandment of the brigade most of them ended their careers as Vismod vehicles.

 

[uk 75]

India acquired some FV432s when it had the Abbott guns.
Never seen a photo of one. Also wondered if they were planned to buy more.

 

[GTX]

India acquired some FV432s when it had the Abbott guns.
Never seen a photo of one. Also wondered if they were planned to buy more.

This perhaps?

More: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vehicles_at_the_National_War_Memorial_Southern_Command

 

[uk 75]

What a pretty "Bonk". I love the camo. Now where did I put that polythene Airfix one...
Thanks GTX and congrats on your appointment.

 

[GTX]

Thanks mate.

 

[cattalonX]

saladin turrets············M113 and Type 63，so······

 

[JohnR]

What is the vehicle base on the lower photo?

 

[Apophenia]

What is the vehicle base on the lower photo?

It began life as an innocent Sri Lankan Norinco YW531 (PLA Type 63) APC. Then the Tamil Tigers got hold of it ...

 

[Elan Vital]

Most welcome, I had not seen that site before so I got something out of that too. The FV 432 was a victim of it's time really, service extended beyond logic and that turret added to compete with MICV's when it was only a battle taxi imho. When I signed for my last a MK 1-1 petrol powered ambulance in 1981, the engine had already been condemned for two years and was a right sod in use. Maintenance time was off the charts and effectively more money on that than a replacement should have cost. Of course, these acquisition programs pull up their own issues which I shall not mention now. 01 EA 01 from memory, I have no pictures left after many house moves, job moves etc.

I have recently acquired the "Chobham Armor" book and they mentionned MVEE had tested new engines for FV 432 in 1974, much like the slightly later Stormer precursor with a new engine. The best one was the Perkins TV8 640 diesel, some 215bhp in the civilian configuration at the time I believe.

They did nothing with it however, sadly...

 

[Foo Fighter]

There were a few diesel variants about but not many. Our ambulances were all petrol so logixtics not as good as they could have been. Add a few replacement petrol engines to the mix too.