Various Henschel projects

[richard]

and do you know Henschel P.72,P.76 and P.80? thanks.

Hs P 72 was an high wing 2xBMW 801TJ transport (length:17,8 m)
Hs P 76 was a project related and looking like the Hs 129
The Hs P 80 was a project between Hs 130A and Hs 130 E

 

[Zizi6785]

Any info about this project?

 

[richard]

Hello

Do you know the source ?

Cheers
Richard

 

[Zizi6785]

Aircraft of the Luftwaffe 1935-1945: An Illustrated History by Jean-Denis G. G. Lepage

 

[Silencer1]

Hi!

Isn't Henschel Hs-122 has been single-engineed rarasol, flown in 1935
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_122

I guess, RLM doesn't allow duplication of aircraft indexes.

For me this picture was a fiction, inspired by Richard Vogt assymmetrical projects.

Cheers!

 

[richard]

There are some duplications ( Bf163 ; Me 163 . Bf 162 ; He 162 . Fw 187 ; Ju 187 . Me 265 ; Fl 165 . Hs 296 ; Ar 296 ....).

 

[Flitzer]

Hi
I think it is totally bogus.

I did a 'what-if' spare parts model a few years ago and pics are posted on Igor's Unicraft site on page 6 of the photographs section.
I swear I had never seen anything similar before I did 'my' Hs P122 AS and until this post ever since. I made it up, just to use my left over kit parts for fun. I never dreamed it would end up like this.
If there was a genuine Hs design just like this then it will be the biggest coincidence in history.
I can't imagine me having the brains to guess what a Henschel designer did all those years ago.

So I think its definitely not a authentic aircraft design.
It just goes to show what Orionblamblam has mentioned numerous times, what-if projects need labelling as such so as not to confuse with genuine concepts. Viewers may see a 'what-if' on the internet and accept it as a genuine WW2 design.

Cheers
P

 

[Silencer1]

Hi!

There are some duplications ( Bf163 ; Me 163 . Bf 162 ; He 162 . Fw 187 ; Ju 187 . Me 265 ; Fl 165 . Hs 296 ; Ar 296 ....).

You are quite right! Even in carefully prepared RLM plans appears the places for duplications or even mistakes

Thanks for correction!

 

[Zizi6785]

These are Hs-122 too:

 

[Flitzer]

Hi I found 2 low res pics.
Crappy model now I look at it again.
Unicraft Hs P122 fuselage and fin with wings made from a Fw Ta154. Engine by Unicraft.

Cheers
p

 

[hesham]

Hi,


Hs P.76 was a twin engined low-mid-wing ground attack project,looks like Hs.129.

 

[Jemiba]

The cation says "In 1938 the Hs 129 emerged from the Hs P.76", so it was the pre-project,
or internal project number for the Hs 129.
Can you tell us the source, please ?

 

[hesham]

Here is the source my dear Jemiba,


Waffen-Arsenal; Flugzeuge gegen Panzer.

 

[Jemiba]

Found in "Manfred Griehl, Typenkompass Henschel", not strictly a project, but a proposal, that
never came to fruition, the HS 123 fitted with a closed canopy. Tested in the prototype V-6, the
open cockpit was still preferred by the pilots. Have searched for quite a while and this was the
first photographic evidence I've found.
With the beginning of this program, versions with other engines were proposed, too. One of them
should have been powered by a Jumo 21/C (later Jumo 210C). Tried to sketch it using the nose of
the He 112, as shown on http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com.
Perhaps someone got another, more realistic drawing ?

 

[Wurger]

Well done, Jens. Does the series "Typenkompass" hold more lesser-known projects/variants?

 

[Jemiba]

Mentioned, too, are proposed variants with BMW Hornet 135, with Twin Wasp Junior S5A-G
(probably similar to the Hs 123 V-2 ?) and with Hispano Suiza 12 (!) engines (Still looking for
a good pattern for the latter one).
The unbuild projects were all already mentioned here (P.87, P.122, 135, 136 ..)

 

[lark]

A very welcome addition to this thread Jens! Thanks.

 

[Apophenia]

Very nice Jens! Another source for Jumo cowling inspiration might be the Hs 126 v1 -- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/spyww2/hs126/hs126-1.jpg

 

[Avimimus]

It perhaps deserves its own topic but something like four types of rockets and five gunpods were proposed for the HS-129 that didn't see service.

The HS-129C was also slated to have an ejection seat and twin mk-103 installation similar to the Russian KABB project. This would allow hitting the top armour of tanks. While ammunition supplies were extremely limited, the ability to attack from extreme low altitude and hit tanks from their most vulnerable direction could have been extremely effective (I've run simulations on this actually )

So there is a very interesting evolution of weapon systems here.

 

[Jemiba]

Another source for Jumo cowling inspiration might be the Hs 126 v1

Good work ! But the Hs 126 V-1 had a DB 600, hadn't it ? Actually, the cowling of the Jumo
powered Hs 123 could have been more similar to this one, than to the one I've used, as there
often is a kind of "family likeness" between the designs of a manufacturer.

It perhaps deserves its own topic but something like four types of rockets and five gunpods were proposed for the HS-129 that didn't see service.

Good idea, we should have a look for detailed inforamtion. The mentioned book just covers the built variants,
including the one with the SG 113.

 

[Wurger]

The HS-129C was also slated to have an ejection seat and twin mk-103 installation similar to the Russian KABB project

Hi Avimimus,

can you please state your source? I didn`t know about this.
In
Also, does anyone know about the other contenders in this RLM specification? In Wikipedia one can read that four companies were invited to tender, but only two of three projects were considered. What was the third project? By Gotha or by Hamburger Flugzeugbau?

 

[Jemiba]

According to Novarra "Die deutsche Luftrüstung 1933 - 45" the C-series would have been
powered by Isotta-Fraschini engines. No other information there. Seems, that other sources
for engines were looked for, as with the Gnome & Rhone engines.

 

[hesham]

Hs P 72 was an high wing 2xBMW 801TJ transport (length:17,8 m)

Hi,


Hs P 54 was twin engined high-wing medium transport monoplane project,powered by two
1750 hp BMW 801 TJ engines.


The source is the same book as my dear Jemiba later mentioned.

 

[Avimimus]

Hi Avimimus,

can you please state your source? I didn`t know about this.

I only read the book in passing... I remember the photographed documents reproduced in it though.

Such weapon loads for the Hs-129C-1 are mentioned in "German Aircraft of the Second World War: Including Helicopters and Missiles" By Antony L. Kay, John Richard Smith. However, the book I saw had reproduced drawings of the Hs-129C and a photograph of a document listing proposed gunpods and ammunition loads.

If I recall correctly: The twin depressable Mk-103s carried only 30 rounds per gun! There were also 2xmg151 (250 rpg), 2xmg131 (500 rpg) and 4xmg131 (250 rpg) gun pods looked at early in the program. The WGr. 21, WGr. 28, Panzerblitz 1, Panzerblitz 2 may actually have been tested. There is also passing reference to the Gero flame thrower.

I have yet to see any documents showing drawings of the gun-pods or rocket mounts that were proposed but never saw service.

 

[Jemiba]

Couldn't resist to transplant a Hispano Suiza 12 (Y) engine to the HS 123 fuselage.
Actually, I can only think of this propulsion plant to be meant for export aircraft ?

 

[Wurger]

As with the Dornier Do 22, for example.

 

[Apophenia]

... But the Hs 126 V-1 had a DB 600, hadn't it ? ...

According to William Green's Warplanes of the Second World War Vol.9 (pg.186), the Hs 126 v1 was powered by a 600 hp Jumo 210 "pending availability of the proposed Bramo Fafnir 323A-1 nine-cylinder radial ...". But that book was published in 1967, so who knows?

BTW, in Vol.10, Green identified the Hs 129C's powerplant as the Isotta-Fraschini Delta RC 16/48 rated 840 hp at 17,390 ft. Green said that the C series only proceeded as far as an engine installation mockup.

 

[Jemiba]

Griehls "Typenkompass" give for both, the Hs 126 V-1 and V-2 the DB 600 as the
propulsion plant. Novarra says, the V-1 was at first given a RR Kestrel, which was later
replaced by a Bramo 323, whereas the V-2 got a Jumo 210 at first ...
Such engine changes were quite frequent then, just have a look at the Bf 109 or Ju 87,
so not unplausible, but Griehl at least gives photographic evidence of the V-1 and V-2
with the DB 600, although that's no reason, that no other engines were used on those
airframes.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Jens. I knew that the Hs 122 V1 (D-UBYN) had a Kestrel but hadn't seen the suggestion that the Hs 126 prototype was similarly powered.

Interesting idea about an HS.12-powered export Hs 123. Moteur canon perhaps?

 

[Jemiba]

With trying to get the different engine lconfiguartions rigt, it seems, that we've opened
a can of worms !
Griehl gives for the HS 122 V-1 the registration D-UQEV, powered by a Siemens Halske SAM 22B radial.
The D-UBYN is said to have been the V-2, powered by a Kestrel, at least this aircraft is shown and the
shape of the cowling fits to this type of engine.
What is said to be the Hs 126 V-1 is shown on two photos, too, but it didn't wear a registration, so it's hard
to determine, if it really is the first prototype.

 

[Apophenia]

Hmmm. A can of worms indeed. LuftArchiv says the same: "Hs 122 V2, D-UBYN, mit Rolls Royce Kestrel Motor". Alas, no image of the Hs 122 V1.

http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/henschel/hs122.jpg
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/henschel/hs122.htm

Wikipedia cites CG Grey, Jane's AWA 1938, saying V1 was D-UBYN (powered by Kestrel) and V2 was D-UBAV powered by a Siemens Sh 22B.

Just to add to the confusion, Warbirds Resource Group refers to the first two prototypes as the Hs 122a and Hs 122b. Presumably, these 1935 prototypes were designated before the RLM's Feb 1935 V-for-Versuch rules were enforced.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hs122.html

 

[Jemiba]

In "Die Geschichte der Henschel-Flugzeugwerke AG 1933 - 45" by Horst Materna some projects arer mentioned, too:

- Hs P.21 : This designation was used in 1936 for several designs for a fast bomber, building a mock-up was started
- Hs P.24: Design for a heavy figher, stopped in October 1936 because the kind of engine used was still unclear.
- Hs. P.25/26: 4-engined (Jumo 210) long-range bomber, crew of four to six, seated in a fully glazed nose, bomb load
3,000 kg, mechanically steered dorsal and belly twin gun turrets and a tail turret. A mock-up was ordered in 1936, but
the progarm was stopped in 1937.
- Hs P.28: 3-seat close reconnaissance aircraft 1936.
- Hs P.30: Modification of the Hs 124 for high altitude engines.

Several later projects are given just with their descriptions, but without designations:
- Twin seat, 3-engined jet aircraft, 1943 ( unclera if fighter or bomber)
- 3-seat, 4-engined (TL 018) bomber 1944, inner engines in the wing roots to be shut down during cruising flight and intakes
then shut to minimise drag. Remotely controlled guns, range 2,000 km, bomb load 2,000 kg.
- Combination of the AA-missile Hs 117 "Schmetterling" and a mini glider with canard layout (span 4 m, wing area 4qm).
Launched by a catapult, this combination should be guided to a bomber by the pilot , who then would release his glider
and land.
- Hs P.136: Canard rocket fighter with prone pilot and an armament of two rocket pods with six 5 cm rockets each.

BTW, I've merged the old thread about the "Hs 122" which actually was misinterpretation of the "P.122" .

 

[hesham]

Excellent my dear Jemiba,


thank you for sharing.

 

[Wurger]

Great input, Jens! Thanks. I own the book and, apparently, I missed those later projects. How silly of me : .

 

[Maveric]

HsP.136...

 

[Stargazer]

We already have a topic on the P.136 (also dubbed the PJ 600 after its engine):
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16398.msg170843.html#msg170843

Flitzer made a beautiful series of "what if" plans for that aircraft! (I'm attaching one of them)

I'm also adding a beautiful "what if" plan by Peter Allen.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is a drawing to Hs.129C project.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


I found on ebay,a reference to Henschel patent aircraft projects,and they used a strange
series;the HFW,and some missile projects too,but it's the first time to hear about that
sequence.


http://www.ebay.de/itm/HORST-MATERNA-DIE-GESCHICHTE-DER-HENSCHEL-FLUGZEUG-WERKE-A-G-IN-SCHoeNEFELD-B-/280921510257

 

[airman]

V-5 and V-6 could be been a base for version B and C : anyone know there are a detailed technical data about V-5 and V-6 ?

 

[hesham]

Excellent and good Info Newsdeskdan.