Various DFS Projects

[hesham]

Hi,

old information from internet:
DFS-12 target drone
DFS-360 flying disc project as Mistel aircraft
DFS-464 missile project to carried by DFS-360
DFS-611 -----?

also the DFS.301 was unknown project and may be it was
related to development of DFS.346.

 

[Tuomasn]

Hi,
the Focke-Wulf was a true project to Luftwaffe in my resource and it wasn't creat by intelligent or dreams.

old information from internet:
DFS-12 target drone
DFS-360 flying disc project as Mistel aircraft
DFS-464 missile project to carried by DFS-360
DFS-611 -----?

Hmm... from the Internet... I think I find these projects veerrry dubious.

 

[Jemiba]

Can't find any of those projects, but I don't really believe in the DFS 25 designation,
as long as it should't be the type number of the Urubu, which was developed as a
flying observatory and later, when the german airforce became interested, led to the
DFS 230 .
But you said, two of them maybe fictious and I can't abstainfrom a somewhat provocativ
statement:
I really think, that quite not only two, but quite a lot of those german projects, filling books
and websites are fictious, at best drawn on the backside of an envelope, when the
designers took cover not in the air-raid shelter, but in the nearby wine cellar. And I can't
help the feeling, that sometimes these projects, "so far ahead of its time" are used as
an evidence, that Germany lost the war just by a small margin, and actually won the
war technologically !

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Gleiter bomber project.

 

[ChuckAnderson]

Hi,

Gleiter bomber project.

Hi hesham!

Here's another view of this Gleiter Project aircraft.

Chuck

 

[Jemiba]

All I know about the Fi-168 comes from JET & PROP 1/92 :

Twin boom parasol span 20,9m, lenght 12,55m, empty weight 2612 kg,
MTOW 4630kg, max. speed 246 km/h, landing speed 73 km/h, range 450 km.
armament (at least) 2 MG17. No drawings or other photos, than this, showing
a mock-up seems to have been known, when the magazine was published.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

do you have a more informations about Fieseler
Fi-168 ground attack aircraft or drawing ? please

 

[hesham]

Hi,

A project for Fieseler company,it was a twin boom aircraft and its
fuel was the Hydrogen,and powered by three engined,two tractor
and one pusher,the Hydrogen could be stored cryogenically in large
tank towed by the mather aircraft,the aircraft had a very strange
shape,I never see like it before,it had also a ring wing.

 

[richard B]

Hello Hesham !
Could you ,please ,show this strange bird ? What is the source ?
Thanks
R B

 

[hesham]

Hi richard B,

I am sorry,the aircraft of fieseler was mention in old issue of
Pilot magazine,I have no scanner now,but I can tell you the
issue number if you want.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I read that the Fieseler Fi-104 was a space fighter,I saw an artist
picture to it in Internet from two years,it was developed from Fi 103,
was Fi 104 a really project ?.

 

[Jemiba]

The Fi-104 is mentioned on several sites as the "Reichenberg-Gerät", the manned
version ov hte Fi-103 / V1 flying bomb. Don't know, if thisdesignation is correct, my
"older" sources about this type generally speak of the Fi-103R . And "space" in relation
to this design is probably a little bit exaggerated ...

But the Fieseler design you've mentioned before may have looked like a small version
of the spaceship Enterprise ! "Captain Kirk to first officer ..." ;D

 

[GTX]

I agree - every reference to the manned V-1 that I've seen always calls it the Fi-103R. Though I have seen reference to a MPM model kit of a Fi-104 though the box actually calls it the Fi-103, so I believe the reference is simply a typo.

As to reference to a Fi-104R space fighter, the following is the only reference I found:

The Fi 104R-I was the brain child of Hanna Reitsch and SS-Hauptsturmfurhrer Otto Skorzeny. They knew that Germany needed a space fighter if it was to be able to defend its holdings in orbit, and they also knew that it was going to take time to come up with something properly built.

As a result, they proposed a stop gap measure of a converted F1 103 with controls for a pilot, life support and a small weapons package which would replace the warhead. The craft was not a success. The cockpit was cramped with very basic controls and life support systems. The engine, while reasonable, was not manoeuvrable and slow to respond, and over all, it is fair to say that the space craft was not liked

(see http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/reitsch.html - towards the bottom)

Please note that this is simply fiction. It comes from a game - see http://www.fluency.paintedtarget.org/hv/nat_dk/ship_fi104.html

Regards,

Greg

 

[Jemiba]

As I recently had some "sparetime", I made a short note about this
project, we've mentioned here before :

 

[lark]

Well , speaking of a surprise, this is one!
At last an idea 'how the plane could be'.
Thanks Jens.

 

[Wurger]

Hi guys,

quite a nice work in the Fi168, Jemiba. Very plausible 3 view.

 

[Tophe]

Thanks Jens.
May I add this on my site Update to Forked Ghosts?
( http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/update_FG.htm )

(Chapter Limit/Unconfirmed drawings)
Fieseler Fi 168 [with Jens Baganz analysis]
see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4718.0.html

 

[richard]

;D

Thank you a lot for this very good work .

But an open cockpit for a late thirties design seems improbable ,don't it ?

If the Fi 198 had a little cockpit (such as the Fw 189 V1 one ) could it not be hidden by the front fuselage ?

I think that for communication duties ,it must have got another fuselage ,something like the Fw189 B one :this could explain the huge gap between the wing and land .

Just ideas ....pour faire avancer le schmillblik ( ;D just a joke for french speaking readers ...)
Cheers
Richard

 

[Jemiba]

Hello richard, good to have you here again !

I was thinking about the cockpit, too. But a closed cockpit would have to been
considerably higher, than just a windshield . And the angle, at which the
gondola can be seen, makes it not very probable to me, that there is something
hidden, so full agreeing to Karl Kössler.
To me it seems, that a good ground view was a key element of this design, which
could have lead to the low placed gondola (to prevent the engine nacelles from
obstructing the view) and maybe the open cockpit.

 

[Jemiba]

"If the Fi 198 had a little cockpit (such as the Fw 189 V1 one ) could it not be hidden by the front fuselage ?"

Was just searching for something else and found again the article from Jet & Prop (some pages
behind, where it should have been .. : ) and on the scan of the gondola, I think shows, that
there wasn't a closed cockpit. What's just visible between the machine gun barrels, looks like
a headrest. A communications version, of course would have been designed with another fuselage,
but this one probably wasn't too different from the forward fuselage of a Hs 123 without the
radial engine.

 

[Artie Bob]

Looking for Ju 88 material at the US NASM archives , two references to the Fi 168 were noted. Looked at both and unfortunately neither had any signifcant information other than the airfoil was the same as the Fi 156.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Jemiba]

"..than the airfoil was the same as the Fi 156"

Nevertheless maybe a worthwhile information, as this could support
the supposition, that components of the F 156 would have been used.

 

[Maveric]

Fieseler Fi.333...

 

[hesham]

Hi,
the Focke-Wulf was a true project to Luftwaffe in my resource and it wasn't creat by intelligent or dreams.

old information from internet:
DFS-12 target drone
DFS-360 flying disc project as Mistel aircraft
DFS-464 missile project to carried by DFS-360
DFS-611 -----?

Here is the sources for those aircraft and projects,and a quote
from the site;
http://myriad-subtle.blogspot.com/

DFS Mo 12, target drone re-designated Argus As-292, first RPV fitted with
with Zeiss cameras for recon.
DFS 360, "Berserker" (Frenzied, violent noisemaker), explosives laden disc
Mistel project (6 Argus 044 engines),1945.
DFS 464, proposed rocket carrier aircraft for DFS 360, project (rocket
Powered).

And here is some little known projects;

Laufer VE-RO, jet helicopter project.
Stockel Rammshussjager (Ram Shot Hunter) ramjet-rocket annular explosive warhead launcher aircraft project, 1944.
Lichtscheiben (Light Discs), unmanned light-guided small explosive discs directed by searchlight batteries against the RAF. Nicknamed "Gluhscheiben" (Glow Discs) by Flak Helferin (female searchlight battery auxilliaries).
Trenn Flying Platform 1930s patent, possible prototype circular flight platform, single pilot, markings D-EMK ?.

For the DFS.611 and DFS.1068,please see the Royal Air Force Museum;

http://www.collectionstrust.org.uk/aircraft/5359.htm

 

[hesham]

Hi,

it is the first time to know that,the Junkers EF-130 was a joint design
with DFS,and also known as DFS.130.
Here is a beautiful book about Luftwaffe aircraft and projects;

http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=hdQBTcscxyQC&pg=PA230&dq=blohm+and+voss+BV&hl=ar&ei=qiEvTISxMoyQOMmK_dwB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=blohm%20and%20voss%20BV&f=true

 

[blackkite]

Excellent!!

 

[Stargazer]

Topic split from an old thread about "German projects".

Please see also:

• Fieseler Fi 103 ("V-1") derivatives
• Fieseler Fi 156 Boundary Layer Control
• Fieseler Fi 166
• Fieseler Fi 168
• Fieseler "Volksjäger"

 

[Stargazer]

The DFS 346 from another topic:

 

[hesham]

Hi,


from Le FANA 415,here is a new project to me,it was a piloted version of DFS SC.1000
bomb,DFS developed it as a interceptor and a bomber aircraft,with a prone pilot.

 

[Jemiba]

Interesting type and as it seems from a reliable source, as far as I can judge from the article.
What makes me wonder is the relatively small intake, compared to other ramjets of German
origin.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Jemiba,


and I have never seen like this from DFS before.

 

[Wurger]

Excellent find, my dear Hesham. Since this interesting design wasn`t even mentioned in the book "Geheimprojekte der DFS...", it was a good decision to let it go as I did. Disappointing book, I`m afraid

 

[Jemiba]

...it was a good decision to let it go as I did. Disappointing book, I`m afraid

Hope, you got at least a good price ?
http://www.amazon.de/Geheimprojekte-DFS-Horst-Lommel/dp/3613020726/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377795456&sr=1-2&keywords=DFS

 

[Wurger]

I`ve lost a little money, but I used it to buy better and cheaper books !

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Wurger,


and we can called it,DFS SC.1000 manned bomb aircraft,instead off piloted.

 

[lark]

Hesham , as the French title said : 'German Interceptor project'.

The fighter variant was armed with rockets
but it seems that the concept also could be used as a dive bomber...

I have the original article somewhere in my Fana collection
spread all over the place.... :-/ have to look for it...

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Lark.

 

[Stargazer]

spread all over the place.... :-/ have to look for it...

Oh dear... the image of lark being all tidy, methodical and organized is falling apart at the seams... End of a myth I guess... ;D

 

[Jemiba]

End of a myth I guess... ;D

Only a genius is able to master the chaos !

A question to our native French speakers, as I'm not sure to understand it right: Was the "bomber version"
really intended as a bomber, or as a kind of a suicide attack aircraft à la Fi-103 R or Me 328 versions ?
There's the sentence "Comme sur nombre d'autres projets plutôt ...suicidaires, ...", which I would translate
as " as other German projects rather suicidal ..."

 

[Stargazer]

A question to our native French speakers, as I'm not sure to understand it right: Was the "bomber version"
really intended as a bomber, or as a kind of a suicide attack aircraft à la Fi-103 R or Me 328 versions ?
There's the sentence "Comme sur nombre d'autres projets plutôt ...suicidaires, ...", which I would translate
as " as other German projects rather suicidal ..."

Well, after reading through the article it seems these aircraft were meant to return to base. Their nose was heavily armored to sustain frontal collisions with enemy aircraft! I suppose the "suicidal" bit (which you perfectly translated) is a streak of irony to underline the inherent danger of flying in such machines and the unlikeliness of surviving in such combat conditions, not an indication of their actual mission.