USN decides to buy The Blackburn Buccaneer....

[TimPrice]

View attachment 673147

Given the number in the bomb bay, I assume these are 500lb ers.

Ex Buccaneer navigator here. Had privilege to have exchange tour with RN, experienced two years flying with 809 Squadron from Ark Royal (47 night deck landings), Also had front line tours on Canberra (Germany) and Tornado (Honington). Buccaneer was easily the best strike/attack aircraft: better range, better speed, better weapons capabilities, better maneuverability at low level.

 

[Rule of cool]

Ex Buccaneer navigator here. Had privilege to have exchange tour with RN, experienced two years flying with 809 Squadron from Ark Royal (47 night deck landings), Also had front line tours on Canberra (Germany) and Tornado (Honington). Buccaneer was easily the best strike/attack aircraft: better range, better speed, better weapons capabilities, better maneuverability at low level.

Did you count those night landings on Ark Royal in your log book, or is each on seared into your memory?

 

[Rule of cool]

I don't know about the USN getting the Buccaneer, but apparently a potential customer was Israel in the few years just before the US became it's main supplier of military aircraft. Apparently the US was reluctant to sell combat aircraft to Israel, they'd prefer the Europeans did it, and Israel was looking at something to offset the Arab Il28s and Tu16s and the Buccaneer and A6 were on the menu although I don't know how closely the Buccaneer was looked at.

 

[TsrJoe]

Do you have a reference source for Israel seeking the Buccaneer ? not one iv found in the files as yet

cheers, Joe

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I don't know about the USN getting the Buccaneer, but apparently a potential customer was Israel in the few years just before the US became it's main supplier of military aircraft. Apparently the US was reluctant to sell combat aircraft to Israel, they'd prefer the Europeans did it, and Israel was looking at something to offset the Arab Il28s and Tu16s and the Buccaneer and A6 were on the menu although I don't know how closely the Buccaneer was looked at.

I'd say it's unlikely that the Buccaneer would have been considered by Israel given they didn't purchase anything else in combat aircraft from the British and British military aircraft sales post WW 2 were always spotty.

 

[Rule of cool]

Do you have a reference source for Israel seeking the Buccaneer ? not one iv found in the files as yet

cheers, Joe

Not really, apparently its mentioned in a book by Shlomo Aloni but I don't know. Apparently the Israelis wanted the F4 first and A6 second as their heavy attack aircraft , so my guess is the Buccaneer and Mirage IV were included to give a left and right of arc. A bit like how the RN looked at the Forrestal during the CVA01 process and the RAN looked at the CVA01 and Essex during the HMAS Melbourne replacement process.

I wouldn't have paid it any attention but for what I read from Robert Komer in early 1966 about the US attitude to their first combat aircraft sale to Israel. Apparently the US had delayed taking this step and was not keen at all, only doing it to balance the sale of F104s to Jordan.

Of course all of this happened when Britain had no confidence on the world stage and was a poor export partner, which likely saw Israel reject the Buccaneer in 5 minutes. However confidence and worthiness as a partner isn't set in stone, its the actions of the key people.

 

[Rule of cool]

I'd say it's unlikely that the Buccaneer would have been considered by Israel given they didn't purchase anything else in combat aircraft from the British and British military aircraft sales post WW 2 were always spotty.

Israel bought about 32 meteors in the early-mid 50s and was doing the joint thing with the Chieftain tank in the 60s, but other than that you're right. That said there's nothing inherently wrong with the Buccaneer given Israel wanted the A6, but British policy with regards to arms exports post 57 DWP wasn't condusive for widespread exports of the combat aircraft they were making.

 

[MadRat]

Israel with Buccaneers (and consequentially Lightnings) would have probably indirectly deepen the relationship with the UK and South Africa. Israel was carved out of the British Palestine, so without their 1948 decree you never have a new state of Israel. That fantasy buy obviously radically changes not only future UK exports of their equipment but probably changes so much more than just arm sales because it requires major shifts in political power to happen. It probably means a shift that allows India and Australia to enthusiastically continue to acquire British equipment, too.

 

[TsrJoe]

SA. and UK. relationship was always close, at the time the UK. decided to break off formal political relations we also scuppered ongoing potential export sales for eg. Nimrod MR.1, Thunderbird SAM., Basset CC.1 (as well as tenative enquiries into Jaguar)
Dragging the thread back to topic ... Possible Export ?, USAF. Buccaneer S.2 (A-6 alternate), Air Pictorial, March 1966

 

[TsrJoe]

Possible Export ?, RAAF., Buccaneer S.2 offered as GD. F-111C stopgap, 1971

Possible Export ?, Buccaneer S.2 for Egypt (also Harrier, Jaguar & Hawk), June 1972

Possible Export ?, German Navy Buccaneer S.2, 1962, ref. Flying Review International, 21/1, September 1965

 

[BlackBat242]

Israel with Buccaneers (and consequentially Lightnings)

Ummm why would Israel have bought a single-purpose interceptor when they really needed a multirole fighter*... just because they bought a really good strike aircraft?

Mirage III fit their needs much better - and Israel never bought military hardware that didn't fit their operational needs.


* Sorry... all those sales brochures aside, a Lightning using those air-ground weapons really wasn't effective at all.

 

[BlackBat242]

Dragging the thread back to topic ... Possible Export ?, USAF. Buccaneer S.2 (A-6 alternate), Air Pictorial, March 1966

Ummm... the USAF never operated the A-6 - that was USN/USMC only.

The USAF would have been looking at Bucc as a F-105 supplement/replacement, and for the requirement that eventually saw them buy a modified A-7.

 

[Rule of cool]

What year/s was West Germany interested in the Buccaneer? I've read that they were but that's about it.

 

[EwenS]

What year/s was West Germany interested in the Buccaneer? I've read that they were but that's about it.

1960. NA.39 demonstrated to the West German Defence Minister, Franz-Josef Strauss, at Farnborough Air Show. The Germans were shopping for a new maritime strike aircraft for the Marineflieger. Eventually bought the F-104G to fulfill the role.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Ummm why would Israel have bought a single-purpose interceptor when they really needed a multirole fighter*... just because they bought a really good strike aircraft?

Mirage III fit their needs much better - and Israel never bought military hardware that didn't fit their operational needs.


* Sorry... all those sales brochures aside, a Lightning using those air-ground weapons really wasn't effective at all.

I'd agree and go a bit further. For all intents, the Lightning was also a daylight only fighter with a very limited armament package. Israel needed a fighter with longer range radar guided missiles as an option, and that wasn't happening with the Lightning anytime soon.

 

[Rule of cool]

Israel's interceptor needs were covered by the 1963 buy of 72 Mirage IIIC, armed with the Shafrir 1 missile as well as the 8 launchers for 15 Matra R530 missiles. If the Lightning was going to enter Israeli service it would be instead of this.

Their 1965-66 requirement was for a low level intruder aircraft as an offset to Arab Il28s and Tu16s., 30 heavy and 120 light attack Apparently the F4 was the top of their wishlist with the Mirage IV second (a bit like the RAAF's options in late 1963) but couldn't afford them so asked for 75 old B66s instead. By 1966 this requirement had morphed into the A6, if the Buccaneer was considered it would have been in this time-frame. in ther event the US refused to sell the A6 and Israel ordered the 50 Mirage V and it's first batch of 24 + 24 A4s.

These are all single role-aircraft, although the Mirage V would be pretty nifty in air to air if needed.

In Feb 1968 the F4E sale was authorised, finaly filling the 1965-66 heavy attack requirement, with about 90 being in service by 1973. The remaining Mirage IIIC were still used in the interceptor/air to air role but the F4E was truly multi-role and would take on air to air fighting to cover the Mirage losses. Maybe the Spey Buccaneer could meet the strike portion of this requirement, but the Lightning was past its prime export window by 1968.

The next time the Israelis needed a 'fighter', to replace the now very depleted and hard flown Mirage IIIs, they got the F15A in 1977.

 

[Rule of cool]

1960. NA.39 demonstrated to the West German Defence Minister, Franz-Josef Strauss, at Farnborough Air Show. The Germans were shopping for a new maritime strike aircraft for the Marineflieger. Eventually bought the F-104G to fulfill the role.

I hadn't realised the Sea Hawk had lasted in German Navy service until the mid 60s. I presumed once the F104G entered German service from 1960 that was it, all other deals were off.

Did the Germans like the Buccaneer, did they give it real consideration or was it just a glance to reject it?

 

[TinWing]

I hadn't realised the Sea Hawk had lasted in German Navy service until the mid 60s. I presumed once the F104G entered German service from 1960 that was it, all other deals were off.

Did the Germans like the Buccaneer, did they give it real consideration or was it just a glance to reject it?

As I recollect, the German Navy requested detailed information on the Buccaneer, but with arcane British export regulations, all such material had to be physically passed through the British embassy in Bonn, where someone forgot about it for months on end.

 

[Rule of cool]

As I recollect, the German Navy requested detailed information on the Buccaneer, but with arcane British export regulations, all such material had to be physically passed through the British embassy in Bonn, where someone forgot about it for months on end.

That'd be right.

Apparently when EE was trying to sell Germany the Lightning in the wake of the cancellation of the SR177 British officials told them not to buy it.

 

[uk 75]

Ironically the Luftwaffe did not patrol West Geman airspace in peacetime, this task was left to the British in the North and US in the South. So Lightnings did get to contribute to the air defence of the Federal Republic.

 

[uk 75]

Cancelling Tornado was on the cards in the early 70s. The Germans were very happy with the Phantom.
An RAF with more Buccaneers might not have been a bad thing.

 

[Rule of cool]

Ironically the Luftwaffe did not patrol West Geman airspace in peacetime, this task was left to the British in the North and US in the South. So Lightnings did get to contribute to the air defence of the Federal Republic.

What timeframe was this? In late 1957 the 2ATF had 12 all-weather & day fighter sqns. I imagine this was sufficient to patrol West German northern airspace. However by 1964 RAFG was down to 2 all-weather fighter sqns, which seems inadequate to even defend its own 4 bases.

There must have been a transfer of responsibility at some point. Perhaps the British air defence sector becoming a NATO command under British control or something?

 

[BlackBat242]

I hadn't realised the Sea Hawk had lasted in German Navy service until the mid 60s. I presumed once the F104G entered German service from 1960 that was it, all other deals were off.

It took a bit of time after the "final selection" to see delivered aircraft.

The F-104G was declared the winner of the contest on November 6, 1958, in an announcement made by German Federal Defense Minister Franz Josef Strauss in Bonn. An initial contract for 66 F-104Gs was awarded to Lockheed on February 6, 1959, which was later increased to 96.

Herr Strauss also indicated that the German aircraft industry would build 210 F-104Gs under license. On March 18, 1959, a consortium of German aircraft manufacturers acquired a license to manufacture the Starfighter. License production and associated technology transfers to expand the German national aircraft industry were key features of the program.

The first German Starfighters were the Lockheed-built two-seat F-104Fs which were initially used in the USA to train German instructors. At that time, the F-104Fs were painted with standard USAF insignia and carried USAF serial numbers. These machines were then handed over to Waffenschule 10, which was based at Norvenich in Germany. After handover, they were repainted in Luftwaffe insignia and assigned German serial numbers. They began converting pilots for JBG31 in July of 1960.

The first operational unit to be equipped with the F-104G was Jagdbombergeschwader 31 "Boelcke" (JBG31), also based at Norvenich. JBG31 became fully operational in 1963.

 

[Rule of cool]

4 years from decision to IOC isn't unusual, that's about what the RAAF did with the Mirage at the same time. I was surprised that the 1959 F104 decision didn't cover the Marineflieger requirement, that the door was still open for the Buccaneer in mid 1960.

 

[uk 75]

2ATAF and 4ATAF were responsible for NATO air operations in West Germany. I do not know at what point the Luftwaffe would have joined the US and UK in patroling German airspace along its eastern borders.

 

[Rule of cool]

2ATAF and 4ATAF were responsible for NATO air operations in West Germany. I do not know at what point the Luftwaffe would have joined the US and UK in patroling German airspace along its eastern borders.

IIUC the RAF 2TAF became NATO 2ATAF, and the CO of RAFG was also the CO of 2ATAF.