USAF/USN 6th Gen Fighters - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS News & Analysis

[Scott Kenny]

Is dropping a pair of 1000 lbs JDAMs not something a bomber does? AI bombers would be doing the things that JSF could be doing if it weren't busy cosplaying as an ATF and carrying AMRAAMs. That seems to be where the USAF is headed since it never got as many F-22s as it "needed". Now that it is facing a force of at least 250 J-XX and probably closer to 300-400 by the end of the decade. Add in however many J-31s the PLAN is able to buy and build. It's a pretty sizeable force of what seems to be competently built LO aircraft.

JSF will too busy being tasked with DCA to do much bombing.

No, dropping 1000lb JDAMs is something even an F22 can do.

It's dropping the big stuff that defines bombers anymore. 5000lbs and bigger.

 

[dark sidius]

I was thinking about that myself dark sidius, certainly be fast enough to keep up with the main fighter force.

We could be surprise when the NGAD will take the light, imagine this kind like the picture , abble to do A/A, air dominance , control node ? refuel F-35 like attack fighter, a fleet mix of all this capacity could be the real air dominance....

 

[FighterJock]

A true multirole aircraft in other words dark sidius, able to switch mission types quickly as to when needed.

 

[Scott Kenny]

We could be surprise when the NGAD will take the light, imagine this kind like the picture , abble to do A/A, air dominance , control node ? refuel F-35 like attack fighter, a fleet mix of all this capacity could be the real air dominance....

I admit, I am expecting in the neighborhood of 40klbs of fuel on the beast.

 

[dark sidius]

A true multirole aircraft in other words dark sidius, able to switch mission types quickly as to when needed.

It could be the concept

 

[jsport]

So does the Air Force have new aces now?

Air Force pilots shot down more than 80 Iranian attack drones this month. The math suggests some reached ace status.

taskandpurpose.com

 

[jsport]

Air Force Wants $1.3 Billion to Finish Design for New Fighter Engine

The Air Force is asking Congress for $1.3 billion over three years to finish designing an engine for the NGAD fighter.

www.airandspaceforces.com

any plane costing in to the "hundreds of millions" should be capable of transitioning in and out space at least for short periods.

it should be near impervious via an all-axis DEW defensive suite.

it should have a sufficient payload bay for a significant amount of H-K UAS/munitions. Such UAS/munitions should possess multiple shot capability and even be recoverable on the non/permissive battlespace/ground if not all shots are taken.

 

[MihoshiK]

Air Force Wants $1.3 Billion to Finish Design for New Fighter Engine

The Air Force is asking Congress for $1.3 billion over three years to finish designing an engine for the NGAD fighter.

www.airandspaceforces.com

any plane costing in to the "hundreds of millions" should be capable of transitioning in and out space at least for short periods.

it should be near impervious via an all-axis DEW defensive suite.

it should have a sufficient payload bay for a significant amount of H-K UAS/munitions. Such UAS/munitions should possess multiple shot capability and even be recoverable on the non/permissive battlespace/ground if not all shots are taken.

I take it you want a unicorn for your birthday, and not a pony.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Air Force Wants $1.3 Billion to Finish Design for New Fighter Engine

The Air Force is asking Congress for $1.3 billion over three years to finish designing an engine for the NGAD fighter.

www.airandspaceforces.com

any plane costing in to the "hundreds of millions" should be capable of transitioning in and out space at least for short periods.

it should be near impervious via an all-axis DEW defensive suite.

it should have a sufficient payload bay for a significant amount of H-K UAS/munitions. Such UAS/munitions should possess multiple shot capability and even be recoverable on the non/permissive battlespace/ground if not all shots are taken.

Any one of those capabilities costs about $200mil.

edit: per aircraft. Not counting development costs.

 

[donnage99]

any plane costing in to the "hundreds of millions" should be capable of transitioning in and out space at least for short periods.

Idk if that's great for its stealth coating.

 

[SK2]

Didn't someone claim there will be "plasma stealth" for their re-entry vehicle?
Even radar stealth can be solved, the heat signature is something you can't hide

 

[jsport]

I take it you want a unicorn for your birthday, and not a pony.

ok 'near space' whatever drastic enhances range

Sänger-Bredt "Silverbird"​

 

[yeetmahboi]

it should have a sufficient payload bay for a significant amount of H-K UAS/munitions. Such UAS/munitions should possess multiple shot capability and even be recoverable on the non/permissive battlespace/ground if not all shots are taken.

This greatly troubles me.
H-K requires advance divert/guidance/propulsion schemes not permissible on anything expendable. Factor in recoverability (said UAS should be able to survive a direct hit with a supersonic missile and survive reentry, or store a parachute system). And why even multishot? The propellant required for re-engaging other threats, potentially hypersonic and separated by miles, on an already volumetrically limited system would be astounding. Maybe a limited NERVA-esqe system would be needed. So your notional UAS here would be exorbitantly expensive, and multiply that by whatever "significant" means here.

I mean, no one put taxes on dreams but reality is reality.

ok 'near space' whatever drastic enhances range

Resurrect Dyna-Soar but as a HOTOL system!

 

[jsport]

This greatly troubles me.
H-K requires advance divert/guidance/propulsion schemes not permissible on anything expendable.

disagree

Factor in recoverability (said UAS should be able to survive a direct hit with a supersonic missile and survive reentry, or store a parachute system).

Mother protected via all axis RF guided DEW primarily for missiles @ very close range.

And why even multishot? The propellant required for re-engaging other threats, potentially hypersonic and separated by miles, on an already volumetrically limited system would be astounding.

Daughters multi-shot capability would be an Auto Grenade Launcher able to engage all tgts from other threat msles to Hardened Aircraft shelter doors to tank plinking w/ the same HV mini-missiles w/new energetics HEDP warheads... again all @ very close range.

Maybe a limited NERVA-esqe system would be needed. So your notional UAS here would be exorbitantly expensive, and multiply that by whatever "significant" means here.

SEAD would be accomplished via other means. UAS/munition would only act as back up SEAD.

CCAs provide SEAD, air superiority etc. as well as carrying daughters themselves.

CCA emphasis seems to be primarily on lower cost attritables, well what if the low cost attritable CCA carried even lower cost attritiable daughters. Even the more expensive boutique CCAs need their own low cost standoff which can be recovered but not necessarily.

 

[X-39]

What USAF’s NGAD Program Can Learn From The Advanced Tactical Fighter | Aviation Week Network

Lockheed’s road map to victory provides clues for the sixth-generation combat aircraft program.

aviationweek.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

Mother protected via all axis RF guided DEW primarily for missiles @ very close range.

We've had laser dazzlers for missile defenses for a while now, either blind the IR seeker or feed false data to the prox fuze.

I'm still not convinced that you can make a laser with enough power to shoot down an AAM that will fit in a plane.

Daughters multi-shot capability would be an Auto Grenade Launcher able to engage all tgts from other threat msles to Hardened Aircraft shelter doors to tank plinking w/ the same HV mini-missiles w/new energetics HEDP warheads... again all @ very close range.

No grenade launcher is going to have enough power to deal with a HAS. Not even going through the doors.

 

[jsport]

We've had laser dazzlers for missile defenses for a while now, either blind the IR seeker or feed false data to the prox fuze.

I'm still not convinced that you can make a laser with enough power to shoot down an AAM that will fit in a plane.




No grenade launcher is going to have enough power to deal with a HAS. Not even going through the doors.

The agl fires a HV mini missiles in limited numbers and the missiles r guided to same impact point affording time for best in serial shaped charge effects.

 

[dark sidius]

when we will see the contract for NGAD ?

 

[Moose]

when we will see the contract for NGAD ?

The down-select will happen this summer, per current plan.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Already talks of a 7th Generation fighter..?! [Also Mods i apologize if this isn't a correct thread for this] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...er-would-be-total-waste-time-and-money-210941

I think there is a thread post for that, but there was some speculation about a "7th Generation Fighter" as early as a few years ago if I remember

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

The down-select will happen this summer, per current plan.

My money's on Lockheed Martin, given their track record with the F-22 and F-35, not to mention all the whistleblowing (And deaths of said whistleblowers) going on at Boeing

 

[MihoshiK]

My money's on Lockheed Martin, given their track record with the F-22 and F-35, not to mention all the whistleblowing (And deaths of said whistleblowers) going on at Boeing

Boeing Defense and Commercial are two very different entities.

 

[Hanse]

Why is the human the weak point?

These trials are very tightly controlled and scripted, as yet no computer has come close to sustaining even “sense and avoid” GA flying due to the complexity and unpreditctability of the air environment. The “is it an enemy, what course of action to do?” is something so difficult we cant even specify a trial - all AI stuff starts with (human decided) assumptions that drastically simplify the situation for the computer to then process.

Endurance for these aircraft is engine oil limited, not the pilot. The offload of “routine flying” to computers with the human as a mission controller makes that even more pronounced as the human can take “time out” in a way they cant at the moment.

 

[jsport]

Air Force Wants $1.3 Billion to Finish Design for New Fighter Engine

The Air Force is asking Congress for $1.3 billion over three years to finish designing an engine for the NGAD fighter.

www.airandspaceforces.com

any plane costing in to the "hundreds of millions" should be capable of transitioning in and out space at least for short periods.

it should be near impervious via an all-axis DEW defensive suite.

it should have a sufficient payload bay for a significant amount of H-K UAS/munitions. Such UAS/munitions should possess multiple shot capability and even be recoverable on the non/permissive battlespace/ground if not all shots are taken.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/spike-hypervelocity-rocket.19727/#post-191166

 

[Scott Kenny]

My money's on Lockheed Martin, given their track record with the F-22 and F-35, not to mention all the whistleblowing (And deaths of said whistleblowers) going on at Boeing

LockMart is up to their eyeballs in F35 production, NG is equally busy building B21s (though I think they dropped out of the USAF comp), and Boeing Military is more or less on idle with 90something F15EXs to make.

So BMAC has a huge political/industrial base advantage going in to this contest.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/spike-hypervelocity-rocket.19727/#post-191166

You mean this ~6-8ft long rocket?

How many of those do you think your deployable weapon will carry?

 

[dark sidius]

LockMart is up to their eyeballs in F35 production, NG is equally busy building B21s (though I think they dropped out of the USAF comp), and Boeing Military is more or less on idle with 90something F15EXs to make.

So BMAC has a huge political/industrial base advantage going in to this contest.



You mean this ~6-8ft long rocket?

How many of those do you think your deployable weapon will carry?

There is rumor about Boeing is the design that USAF prefer over Lockheed but , we don't know nothing about NGAD difficult to make an idea about it..

 

[jsport]

LockMart is up to their eyeballs in F35 production, NG is equally busy building B21s (though I think they dropped out of the USAF comp), and Boeing Military is more or less on idle with 90something F15EXs to make.

So BMAC has a huge political/industrial base advantage going in to this contest.



You mean this ~6-8ft long rocket?

How many of those do you think your deployable weapon will carry?

Clearly what the MICOM person is holding is the size of human arm. Propulsion is not for a range AT missile. As mentioned numerous times over the years, on this forum, there is a revolution is energetics underway therefore the size can be reduced significantly.

 

[FighterJock]

So the USAF prefers Boeing to Lockheed, need to wait and see what happens when the NGAD contract gets awarded to have a good look at the designs.

 

[FlyGuy369]

So the USAF prefers Boeing to Lockheed, need to wait and see what happens when the NGAD contract gets awarded to have a good look at the designs.

Do you have a source that I could find this on?

 

[dark sidius]

Do you have a source that I could find this on?

 

[FlyGuy369]

View attachment 729719

Amazing, thank you.

 

[apparition13]

LockMart is up to their eyeballs in F35 production, NG is equally busy building B21s (though I think they dropped out of the USAF comp), and Boeing Military is more or less on idle with 90something F15EXs to make.

So BMAC has a huge political/industrial base advantage going in to this contest.

I still think NG pulling out is a bad sign, like deliberate non-compliance on the A-12 was. A sign that the performance and cost requirements don't match up. Of course they may have also seen that what they had wasn't going to win, so they might as well cut their losses.

I really can't see Lockheed getting it given their F-35 production issues. Of course I could say the same for Boeing, which is another reason why I think NG dropping out is a bad thing.

 

[Desertfox]

I wonder if MQ-28 is giving Boeing a head start?

Maybe NG dropped out to focus on the Navy plane? Or they are trying to resurrect FB-23?

 

[Moose]

I think NG just made a call based on their available resources. They have a LOT in B-21, they're still going for the Navy win, and they're interested in being a team member to one of the remaining bidders.

 

[James1978]

Show of hands if you have any confidence in Boeing actually being able to execute on a "more ambitious 'fresher' approach"?

 

[Desertfox]

Boeing Commercial no, Boeing Military yes.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Show of hands if you have any confidence in Boeing actually being able to execute on a "more ambitious 'fresher' approach"?

Boeing Military has been doing interesting things with the F15s and Super Hornets, so I think they can execute.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Clearly what the MICOM person is holding is the size of human arm. Propulsion is not for a range AT missile. As mentioned numerous times over the years, on this forum, there is a revolution is energetics underway therefore the size can be reduced significantly.
View attachment 729692

Okay, so your super-rocket is still 2-3ft long (using whatever propellant mix is in the Cuda/HalfRAAM.)

How many of those is your not-more-than-14ft-long recoverable loitering munition going to carry?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I still think NG pulling out is a bad sign, like deliberate non-compliance on the A-12 was. A sign that the performance and cost requirements don't match up. Of course they may have also seen that what they had wasn't going to win, so they might as well cut their losses.

No, I think it is a case of too many people working on B21 and not enough available for NGAD. So they're going to get B21 flying and then concentrate the engineers on FAXX.

 

[donnage99]

I still think NG pulling out is a bad sign, like deliberate non-compliance on the A-12 was. A sign that the performance and cost requirements don't match up. Of course they may have also seen that what they had wasn't going to win, so they might as well cut their losses.

I really can't see Lockheed getting it given their F-35 production issues. Of course I could say the same for Boeing, which is another reason why I think NG dropping out is a bad thing.

I think they replicating the f-35 approach. As shoed in partner to whoever won, they became a big part of the program, significantly involved in signatures management, sensors work as well as building a big section of each aircraft.

With their head start in the b-21 development, any winning team of the NGAD will ask northrop to join. This would secure them work for both future fighter program and bomber program on top of continual f-35 work. With this move, they are but assured to be heavily involved in all of USAF major aircraft development/production in the forseeable future.