USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[sferrin]

sferrin - any reason why the Stealth aircraft other than to show the absurdity of images 15 years in advance of the program?

It was a joke (though Northrop Grumman did do that, and the main aircrafts general design).

 

[Ian33]

It's pure PR that both are playing so coy, since I really, really doubt that there is going to be any ZOMG factor like we saw with YF-23 or F-117.

When the skins ripple with colours ZOMG is going to be an understatement. Should call it Cuttlefish.

 

[sferrin]

It's pure PR that both are playing so coy, since I really, really doubt that there is going to be any ZOMG factor like we saw with YF-23 or F-117.

When the skins ripple with colours ZOMG is going to be an understatement. Should call it Cuttlefish.

Or American Express Black. ;D *cha-ching*

 

[DrRansom]

The Stealth fighter in Stealth bares some resemblance to the F-X concepts from Boeing and Northrop, at least no-tail, intake on the upper half of the airframe, flying wing.

I'd be interested to see if meta-materials allow for a new swing-wing style airplane. Maybe one which starts with a flying wing shape, then folds the outer wings upward to for lateral stabilizers in supersonic flight.

 

[marauder2048]

....I really, really doubt that there is going to be any ZOMG factor like we saw with YF-23 or F-117.

There are so many "Buck Rogers" developments happening right now with meta-materials that ZOMG is definitely still on the table.

If LM rolled out the design they've had around there would definitely be ZOMG-factor. Same with one of the Boeing designs.

Genetic algorithms and other multi-point optimizations can produce some really bizarre looking designs. One modern advantage being you can 3D print a
wind tunnel model of your computer created abomination in order to ground it in some physical reality.

 

[sferrin]

Genetic algorithms and other multi-point optimizations can produce some really bizarre looking designs. One modern advantage being you can 3D print a
wind tunnel model of your computer created abomination in order to ground it in some physical reality.

A more organic look in some cases. Saw a 3D printed bracket that looked more a the interior of a bird bone with a couple bushings in it than a typical machined part. As additive manufacturing becomes cheaper and more versatile we'll see more and more of that.

 

[marauder2048]

Genetic algorithms and other multi-point optimizations can produce some really bizarre looking designs. One modern advantage being you can 3D print a
wind tunnel model of your computer created abomination in order to ground it in some physical reality.

A more organic look in some cases. Saw a 3D printed bracket that looked more a the interior of a bird bone with a couple bushings in it than a typical machined part. As additive manufacturing becomes cheaper and more versatile we'll see more and more of that.

Speaking of 3D printing, a Raytheon sponsored effort with a nice video showing FSS and Phase Shifters being printed

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/544526/new-ink-opens-the-door-to-3-d-printed-radar/

 

[sublight_]

Genetic algorithms and other multi-point optimizations can.....

No. Let's start with ray tracing and go from there.

 

[marauder2048]

Genetic algorithms and other multi-point optimizations can.....

No. Let's start with ray tracing and go from there.

Surely part of the "fitness" function..

 

[Dragon029]

For what it's worth, here's an experiment of using genetic algorithms to design a quadcopter frame:

http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/using-generative-design-to-design-a-quadcopter-frame-the-way-natu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7XUaYW4r-w

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Here! I don't have a subscription so I didn't get much. May it bring one of you enjoyment.

Northrop Unveils Next-Generation Fighter Concept

http://aviationweek.com/defense/northrop-unveils-next-generation-fighter-concept

 

[sferrin]

Didn't really have anything that hasn't been reported on in the non-paywalls. Even uses the same artwork. (In other words you didn't miss out on anything. )

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

That's what I figured. Lol

 

[NeilChapman]

NG is talking about a pilot-less 6th Gen fighter.

http://www.tampabaydefensealliance.com/news/aerospace-industry-rethinking-how-build-military-aircraft

 

[FighterJock]

NG is talking about a pilot-less 6th Gen fighter.

http://www.tampabaydefensealliance.com/news/aerospace-industry-rethinking-how-build-military-aircraft

Is that still man in loop or totally 100% pilotless with the plane flying itself?

 

[NeilChapman]

NG is talking about a pilot-less 6th Gen fighter.

http://www.tampabaydefensealliance.com/news/aerospace-industry-rethinking-how-build-military-aircraft

Is that still man in loop or totally 100% pilotless with the plane flying itself?

Below from the article... Looks like he's suggesting the latter - but perhaps I'm reading too much into it? How do you read it?

Today’s unmanned systems are not as revolutionary as they could be, he says. Current drone models “constrain our ability to think about innovative new designs. If we think about never having a pilot, it allows us to design things that human beings would never allow,” such as airplanes that push beyond 9 g’s, that take off and land vertically, and do things that pilots would not want to do. “Airplanes still have not gotten to the point where the machines themselves are actually thinking. That’s where we move to the next iteration of advanced autonomy. … So you must provide the system the ability to make that judgment within the context of American values. That is really, really hard.”

 

[AeroFranz]

Not shooting down the messenger here, but i'm a bit critical when someone talks about 9g's being exclusively a human limit. Structures, powerplant, and mass are sized by load factor requirements, it's not like getting rid of the pilot all of the sudden enables supermaneuverability. And even assuming you can pull 12g's, how good is that against a HOBS missile that can pull 30 or 50g's? The cost isn't worth the capability. There are other, more substantial reasons for increased autonomy.

 

[Steve Pace]

Northrop touted 12g maneuvering with its XP-79 because the pilot lay prone on his belly to fly it. -SP

 

[NeilChapman]

Not shooting down the messenger here, but i'm a bit critical when someone talks about 9g's being exclusively a human limit. Structures, powerplant, and mass are sized by load factor requirements, it's not like getting rid of the pilot all of the sudden enables supermaneuverability. And even assuming you can pull 12g's, how good is that against a HOBS missile that can pull 30 or 50g's? The cost isn't worth the capability. There are other, more substantial reasons for increased autonomy.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the reasons for increased autonomy if you're willing to elaborate.

 

[sferrin]

Northrop touted 12g maneuvering with its XP-79 because the pilot lay prone on his belly to fly it. -SP

12Gs laying on your stomach would suck IMO. "Just gonna stand on your face here while we make this turn."

 

[flateric]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-considers-defensive-lasers-for-future-fighters-421535/

 

[jsport]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-considers-defensive-lasers-for-future-fighters-421535/

Hope we are still talking.

hybrid solid-state/gas-phase laser systems focused on diode-pumped alkali vapor lasers (DPALs)

http://spie.org/newsroom/technical-articles/4562-hybrid-lasers-for-directed-energy-applications

not sure if the above are considered entirely Solid State. Might be premature for a categorical rejection of non-solid state.. Fuel energy capacitance and all.

 

[fightingirish]

Screenshot from the new Northrop Grumman ad. B)

This video just turned up on the NG channel, wonder if that's a hint at the end they are expecting to win the protest over the bomber award. Notice their sixth generation fighter concept puts in an appearance.

Gif:

Video:

https://youtu.be/sGzhmVmuSTA

Sources:
http://theaviationist.com/2016/02/05/new-ad-shows-6h-gen-fighter/
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/northrop-grumman-showcases-its-vision-for-a-sixth-gener-1757404876

 

[DrRansom]

Someone told the art team to make a high Mach fighter...

That's the most supersonically adapted design yet.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Source: http://theaviationist.com/2016/02/05/new-ad-shows-6h-gen-fighter/

Ah...

Northrop Grumman has just released an animation that shows how 6th Generation fighters might look like

Ummm... "how X might look like?"

 

[Boxman]

Screenshot from the new Northrop Grumman ad. B)

This video just turned up on the NG channel, wonder if that's a hint at the end they are expecting to win the protest over the bomber award. Notice their sixth generation fighter concept puts in an appearance.

Source: http://theaviationist.com/2016/02/05/new-ad-shows-6h-gen-fighter/
Video:

https://youtu.be/sGzhmVmuSTA

Just watched the commercial again, and weirdly enough, the thing that struck me was, based on the red-hot exhaust illustrated as generated from their 6th Gen concept, how small the engines seem to be.

It's almost as if something the size of an F-15 is being propelled by two closely coupled J85s (around the 11-second mark). Perhaps it is actually a single-engine concept with a bifurcated nozzle (for a degree of thrust vectoring)? Perhaps its some assumption/knowledge on NG's part about incredibly powerful (relatively) small jet engines? Perhaps it's yours truly taking animation in a commercial too seriously?

 

[Moose]

I had a similar reaction to the exhaust animation so its not just you.

 

[DrRansom]

So did I, the exhaust is very small...

Food for thought: if lasers make maneuverability irrelevant, then why not build a high supersonic, low maneuverability fighter?

 

[lantinian]

Yes, the size of the engine jets relative to the aircraft is striking. It does suggest it coul have a long range

The animation and aircraft shape do relay the sence of very high speed and high supersonic agility too

Interesting are the weapons bay lumps and the smaller one ahead which I assume is a laser aperture.

Also notable is how having 4 traling edge control surfaces on each wing allows for directional control or a powerful speed break

 

[mz]

Well it's clear evidence of electrostatic thrusters, also known as "ion wind". Distributed to the whole airframe, so they're not visible in the video.
The engines are probably mostly run for electricity generation.

B)

Or it's just a concept art video.

 

[rodrigoavella]

It could be that the engines are centrally?
On the other hand, the silhouette of this concept is very similar to the TV commercial of "shadow on the clouds."
That shadow always seemed too long for the LRS-B.
The design of this jet fighter is much more work that Boeing and Lockheed designs, so he must have months of development.

 

[DrRansom]

For reading the tea-leafs, I am personally just focusing on the overall planform.

That suggests a much higher speed / lower maneuverability platform than existing fighters. E.g. compare that planform to the F-22 / PAK-FA.

 

[NeilChapman]

Screenshot from the new Northrop Grumman ad. B)

This video just turned up on the NG channel, wonder if that's a hint at the end they are expecting to win the protest over the bomber award. Notice their sixth generation fighter concept puts in an appearance.

Gif:

Video:

https://youtu.be/sGzhmVmuSTA

Sources:
http://theaviationist.com/2016/02/05/new-ad-shows-6h-gen-fighter/
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/northrop-grumman-showcases-its-vision-for-a-sixth-gener-1757404876

Very sexy. Now if we could build it for 125 million with program costs of 250 million for 1000 (500 US 500 Export) planes and the ability to export to Japan, UK, Israel, Australia, Germany, Korea, Philippines, France and Canada - you'd have my attention. I like what the Navy has done deciding to field an airframe with UCLASS and adding capability as technology matures.

Question for F/A-XX is what do they want it to do out of the gate. I'd like to see a straight additions/replacement for F22's perhaps addressing range and armament load but using the latest block upgrades for sensors, avionics etc. from F35's - and sticking to the budget. It doesn't make sense to me to wait on laser technology etc. when we (and our allies) are so critically short of air superiority.

 

[GTX]

when we (and our allies) are so critically short of air superiority.

 

[Sundog]

Regarding the powerplant size, it makes sense. The vehicle itself doesn't look substantially larger than an F-22 and we know we've been able to greatly advance powerplant technology over the last decade. We have new materials able to withstand much higher temperatures in the turbine, new variable cycle technology, and higher operating pressure ratios, therefore, we should be able to generate the same amount of thrust as current engine technology across the flight envelope with a smaller powerplant size due to the great increase in the thrust to weight ratio. What actually surprised me about their size is that it made me wonder if they were being used to generate all of the electrical power on such a vehicle, because we know those requirements are much higher than on legacy designs.

P.S.- Now I just need NG to release a 3D model of it so I can fly it in Flight Simulator.

 

[NeilChapman]

when we (and our allies) are so critically short of air superiority.

Should have said air superiority airframes. Less then 200 F22's, no export, Germans & Japanese want new jets and it would be nice to have F/A-XX in the PI and Australia as well as around the world.

 

[Airplane]

Meh......... I seen this airplane before, in 1986. Only it was a wind tunnel model of a "cranked arrow" winged ATF. Remove the wingtip mounted stabs and it may as be the same thing.

In all seriousness, this "concept" is about one thing: money. Getting people to invest in Northrop stock. That's it. The only things this has in common with what will eventually be a new fighter is that it has a pointy nose, a cockpit, and 2 wings.

As far as compact engine size, I remember in the later 80s reading about USAF research in a Tesla turbine that promised to halve engine size.

 

[fightingirish]

[...]...how small the engines seem to be.[...]

Those small engines reminds very much of its ancestor, the Northrop N-156F aka Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter.

 

[Ogami musashi]

The more central position of engines was already in many 6th generation concepts and many advent pdf showed much longer exhaust ducts.

Even the F/A-XX from boeing in the video "building boeing next generation fighter" has engine which are brung more forward than actual one. I also recall another concept from boeing (in this very topic, posted by flateric) were you see the nozzle area being very flat which means the engine must be forward.

Of course this is still just a concept rendering but as boeing artist said, those concepts are there to hint at features.

 

[LowObservable]

So NG has a magic 6genTM design in the works, is figuring out how to build a demonstrator at Scaled, and tells the comms folks to show it to the world in living color.