USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

quellish said:
In short, the highly integrated nature of 5th generation aircraft makes them more difficult to upgrade/modernize than legacy systems.

Thanks! Very interesting. To date, I've never seen an objective study of the "integrated -vs- federated" architecture argument (beyond hand waving). It would also be interesting to see an objective after-action report comparing the centralized hydraulic system versus the distributed electro-hydraulic approach. Are there any out there?
 
quellish said:
In short, the highly integrated nature of 5th generation aircraft makes them more difficult to upgrade/modernize than legacy systems.

Horseshit (kind of like bullshit, but less valuable)

That would only happen if the designers of the 5th gen system tried to do it in the same way as the 4th gen systems. In other words integrated everything at the lowest (most direct) way possible.

In the case of the F-35, they created a layer of "middleware" that acts as an interpreter that allows each piece of hardware to communicate with the rest of the system. When the hardware is changed, only the Middleware needs to be updated. To the rest of the system, the hardware change is transparent apart from any new functions it provides.

“Performance, affordability, and maintainability of the platform over time are big part of why COTS is so important,” says Eric Branyan, vice president and deputy program manager for the F-35 program at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, Texas—systems integrator for the F-35.

...

He notes that the F-35 program makes lifetime buys when it is economical, but says the real key for the F-35 program is a Lockheed Martin-designed software middleware that enables experts to upgrade COTS hardware and software without rewriting millions of lines of code. “We built the middleware to protect us so we can make changes without overhauling the software code,” Branyan says.

The middleware enables systems designers to refresh key COTS components such as the Freescale PowerPC processors without major changes to the avionics, he continues. In the past, certifying a refresh of multifunction displays would take three to four years, now with the isolated middleware, the most recent refresh was completed in only six months, he adds.

On top of the middleware the F-35 avionics uses the Integrity DO-178B real-time operating system (RTOS) from Green Hills Software in Santa Barbara, Calif. This RTOS is already certified to FAA regulations, which is a huge advantage to Lockheed Martin, he adds.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-21/issue-2/news/news/f-35-joint-strike-fighter-leverages-cots-for-avionics-systems.html

Here is a presentation on the F-22's Open Architecture and Middleware

http://www.ll.mit.edu/HPEC/agendas/proc10/Day2/0835_%20Bond_keynote%20presentation.pptx
 
Given the actual history of the F-22's upgrade programs, versus the rosy pre-IOC predictions, I'll wait to see this magic E-Z-Upgrade technology work out in practice.

That stuff's pretty valuable, by the way. You can grow spuds in it.
 
The problem with F-22 upgrades is that the development cost is only spread across < 187 platforms.


That's not an issue with the F-35.
 
Ah. So if there were 350 jets in service they could spend $1.5-$2 billion/year and get the upgrades done more quickly?


The basic issue is that whatever you do with S/W, the apertures (whether RF or EO) tend to be many, complex and specialized to meet RCS considerations. (For instance, most datalink systems don't require six antennas.)
 
LowObservable said:
The basic issue is that whatever you do with S/W, the apertures (whether RF or EO) tend to be many, complex and specialized to meet RCS considerations. (For instance, most datalink systems don't require six antennas.)

How exactly would realize an omni-directional intra-flight LPI/LPD datalink without multiple apertures on even a typical fast jet platform?
 
marauder2048 said:
How exactly would realize an omni-directional intra-flight LPI/LPD datalink without multiple apertures on even a typical fast jet platform?

Stick a blade antenna out of the top or bottom.

Obviously depends on the operating frequency of the datalink, but with a high frequency you'd get into multiple phased arrays, so at least three are needed for (almost) 4pi steradian coverage. You've got lot more choice where to put them on a typical fast jet - not to mention the rf signature impact on an LO platform.

Then this additional system takes power and needs cooling, both of which are more limited on an LO platform...

In general an LO platform is far more integrated design so you have less flexibility. The software on newer platforms mentioned by Spudman is useful, but there are still physical integration problems.
 
Correct, RA. One reason, I suspect, why MADL integration for the F-22 and B-2 has disappeared from view. Note also that the Rafale's DDM provides near-spherical coverage with two apertures.
 
Hmm Blade antenna..Very wide beam for coverage.

Anyway will data encryption alone be enough for LPI ? In my view MADL Advantage over omnidirectional is that being pencil beam and having controllable lobes will make it very difficult to intercept.

While omnidirectional antenna will basically emit same amount of power almost everywhere including to unintended direction.
 
LowObservable said:
Correct, RA. One reason, I suspect, why MADL integration for the F-22 and B-2 has disappeared from view. Note also that the Rafale's DDM provides near-spherical coverage with two apertures.

Much easier to optimize when "signature" isn't in the equation.
 
LowObservable said:
Ah. So if there were 350 jets in service they could spend $1.5-$2 billion/year and get the upgrades done more quickly?


More jets in service means that the R&D costs are easier to justify. In addition to theat, the per-plane kit-cost will also be reduced due to economy of scale kicking in as the numbers go up.
 
quellish said:
To connect these platforms currently requires assets like BACN, which also require line of sight to all of the players. BACN serves as a communications adapter, taking signals from platform X and translating it into something platform Y can understand and retransmitting it. In the near future you might have an air strike on Pineland that involves players using Link-16, IFDL, MADL, CDL and TCDL - which are not directly compatible. BACN and similar platforms/capabilities allow players using incompatible communications to share information.


If your adversary can find the BACN (or whatever airborne router you use) he can severely degrade your ability to fight.


This will still be the case for the foreseeable future.


This is a very good point, and interestingly ACC Commander Gen. Hostage (now retired) talked of (the AF) working on this type of capability specifically for contested and denied environments in his AFA Breakfast Program speech (June 2014). Implying perhaps an identified need to host this on a Platform which can penetrate and persist in such an environment.
 
Implying perhaps an identified need to host this on a Platform which can penetrate and persist in such an environment.

Mice, bell, cat.
 
"Planning Begins for USAF Next-Gen Air Dominance"
By Aaron Mehta 2:50 p.m. EST March 7, 2015

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/03/07/next-gen-air-dominance-6th-gen-fighter/24393673/

WASHINGTON — The US Air Force is about to start a deep-dive process that will eventually decide what technologies and capabilities it will fund to ensure air dominance in the world of 2030.

And while that includes the potential for a sixth-generation fighter, top service officials continue to stress that the result of the process will likely be a family of systems approach.

Maj. Gen. Tim Ray, director of Global Power in the service's acquisition realm, and Maj. Gen. Paul Johnson, director for Operational Capability Requirements, told Defense News that the Air Force will shortly stand up a team to begin researching these decisions.

The Next-Generation Air Dominance program will be the first pilot program for the Air Force's new Capability Collaboration Team (CCT) structure, part of a broader strategic process unveiled by Gen. Mark Welsh, Air Force chief of staff, at last month's Air Force Association convention in Orlando.

The CCT comprises a number of operational, scientific and technical experts from an array of backgrounds, including the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the Air Force Research Labs and the major commands. The group will explore in depth various options that could matter in the future, before putting out a product with two components.

The first is a list of technologies the CCT has decided will be needed for air superiority in 2030. The second is a road map for how to achieve those technologies.

For example, the CCT could decide that directed energy weapons are a key part of the strategy. It will present to the chief and secretary a guide for what areas of directed energy need investment, how those investments should be prioritized, and perhaps most importantly, a timeline for when those investments would need to pay off in order to be fielded by 2030.

Johnson said the goal is to be able to guide limited research and development funds from being spread to many projects — with the hope that one works out — toward being focused on a small handful of technologies.

"It's not about a decision to start a program, to go do x, y and z," Johnson said. "It's not a decision to go build the next-generation fighter. It's a set of decisions about what more do we want to learn, how do we want to learn it, and how fast do we want to learn it? It's 'out of this set of technologies, we want to chase these four.' "

Timewise, the CCT will begin meeting in the next few weeks. It will spend the next three years researching technologies before presenting a final product in 2018.

The Pentagon is littered with well-intentioned studies into new technologies. What makes this different, Ray said, is the focus on finding actionable items and then creating guidelines to make them real.

"This isn't a slush fund," Ray said. "It's not just. 'hey I'm going to go solve cold fusion, give me a couple of years and I'll get back to you.' It's 'how do I get that power supply correct of that kind of pod to do directed energy,' or 'how do I get this signature from this range to that range?' "

For that to work, Ray said, industry must play a critical role. That fits with a promise from Welsh, who in Orlando pledged that industry would be brought in earlier in the technology development process.

"[Right now] you have to wait until we kind of make up our mind and give you a plan, so you can't energize your resources, your thinking, to help us get ahead of this curve," he said at the conference. "We're not talking to you about it. We must do that. You should be part of this transition planning. You should be part of the [process] in developmental planning."

At the same time, Ray warned that industry needs to be prepared for a shift away from the days of one prime controlling everything from development through production.

"We have a lot of known players and we want to hear what they have to say. The interesting part will be if we get out of the program business, how many more voices will we get that aren't the prime players?" Ray asked rhetorically. "Technology is moving way too fast for us to lock down a program and say it's all got to go through one guy."

That may lead to more focus on studying and prototyping technology without a guarantee of future production, Johnson said.

"When I bring industry in here, industry is understandably interested in what the program is going to look like, which is not my conversation at this point," Johnson said. "So I've got to make it workable so when I get ready to do some experimentation or prototyping, that industry is willing to participate in that, knowing that at the end of the day there may not be anything after that."

Rebecca Grant of IRIS Research said opening another avenue of communication with industry is a net positive for the service. And while she said the CCT brings "all the right ingredients" together, she said the service needs to stick with the concept to make it really work.

"The best technology development stories come out of this mix of people and insights," she said. "What we don't know is if you can get everyone together in a room and just [have] the big insights. Like exercise, you need do this on a regular basis and go for the small gains as well."

Mark Gunzinger, a former service official now with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, called the CCT a "great idea" that could "help accelerate the transition of new, potentially game-changing technologies into the program of record." However, he also offered a word of caution.

"Beginning these efforts by 'researching new technologies' may take teams down the path of trying to figure out how emerging technologies could help airmen improve how they operate today," he said. "I think it's also important to challenge current operational concepts and think through how new technologies could enable airmen to operate very differently in the future."

Hints of the Future

Both generals stressed that the goal is to allow the CCT to be as open as possible as it explores future concepts.

"We can't be prescriptive. We do have to be open," Ray said. "We have to show them what's going on in the intel community with data management, with cyber, with space, so they can begin to look at the tools and what they mean and the implications of those things. It's a broader exposure."

However, the men did drop a few hints as to what technologies they foresee the CCT considering.

Johnson expressed confidence that the 2030 solution would not involve just the development of a heavily advanced fighter with all-onboard capability, noting "there is every likelihood it's going to be some sort of family of systems, and hopefully it will be a mix of old and new.

"I would have every expectation that it will probably be 'programs' — that's one man's opinion," he added. "Sensors, weapons, the whole collection of things."

That family could include a mix of modernized versions of legacy systems in use today, working hand-in-hand with new systems that will be online by 2030. The CCT will be on the lookout for what Johnson called "quick wins," things like experimental sensor upgrades that could be put onto current systems relatively quickly.

The CCT will also look at how to build in growth for potential future technologies, Ray said, noting "we certainly realize we need to build in more inherent adaptability in what we do."

That includes looking at how to build in excess power and create space for any new system, to make sure there is the ability to add newer technologies as they come along.

The generals casually mentioned directed energy and signature reduction as other technologies that will likely be looked at, which isn't news to anyone who has followed the talk about a potential next-generation fighter.

Grant highlighted directed energy as an area that could really gain from the CCT model.

"The time is right for demonstrating progress in directed energy," she said. "I think all future systems from here on out, we're going to have a discussion in directed energy on those systems. We'll be talking about it a lot more."

While the focus now is on the family of systems, there is confidence in industry that a major part of that will involve a sixth-generation fighter.

The Air Force isn't alone in looking at next-gen air dominance technologies. The Navy has said it is looking at a next-gen fighter to replace the F/A-18 and complement the F-35C, and Pentagon acquisition chief Frank Kendall has launched the Aerospace Innovation Initiative, a DARPA-led development program for X-planes to test technologies and concepts.

Johnson said he is in regular contact with his counterpart in the Navy, and Ray added that the lead Air Force representative to the initiative will also be part of the CCT.

That should create a cross-cutting of technologies between the three sides, including, perhaps, letting the CCT test some of the technologies on a prototype plane, then bring those results back into its research.

Industry, meanwhile, is gearing up for what could be a lucrative contract.

Northrop Grumman has already stood up a pair of teams, dedicated to the Navy and Air Force programs respectively, while Boeing has quietly released several mock-ups of future fighter concepts.

Orlando Carvalho, the head of Lockheed Martin's aerospace division, told Defense News that the company's SkunkWorks division is working on a design, but said that work is a natural outgrowth from the company's previous developments.

"When it comes to next-generation air dominance, that work for us is a continuum," he said. "We don't discretely stand up teams, disband teams around that — that's what we do at the SkunkWorks, and it's a continuum."

Carvalho said the Pentagon has "definitely" communicated with companies about what future threat scenarios, tactics and requirements may be.

Both Ray and Johnson are sympathetic to industry's desire to know what a next-generation fighter may look like, but insist they need this structure to prevent the proverbial cart from leading the horse.

"The automatic question [from industry] is when do we do the AOA [analysis of alternatives]? I don't want to hear about an AOA," Ray said. "I want to do some learning first. I want to know what the alternatives are before I begin to analyze those alternatives. Right now we don't even know what the alternatives are."
 
"At the same time, Ray warned that industry needs to be prepared for a shift away from the days of one prime controlling everything from development through production."

That right there is where it breaks the bank. Sounds more like a shift away from the days of accountability.
 
sferrin said:
"At the same time, Ray warned that industry needs to be prepared for a shift away from the days of one prime controlling everything from development through production."

That right there is where it breaks the bank. Sounds more like a shift away from the days of accountability.

Dream on, Ray. With discussion that the LRS-B decision will cause Northrop Grumman to be an acquisition target by Boeing, the United States Air Force can choose between Lockheed Martin or Boeing.
 
Definitely looks like self defense DEW with be part of 6th Gen and, in my opinion, LRS-B
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
"At the same time, Ray warned that industry needs to be prepared for a shift away from the days of one prime controlling everything from development through production."

That right there is where it breaks the bank. Sounds more like a shift away from the days of accountability.

Dream on, Ray. With discussion that the LRS-B decision will cause Northrop Grumman to be an acquisition target by Boeing, the United States Air Force can choose between Lockheed Martin or Boeing.


Funny how we look down upon nationalised aviation-military industries (e.g. France and Russia). Yet we *allow* such monopolies to develop.


I wonder if modern military jets can only be made by effective monopolies (or two bidder systems) due to their complexity and expense??
 
How realistic is the possibility of a United Fighter Alliance (I am serious here )?
 
Avimimus said:
Funny how we look down upon nationalised aviation-military industries (e.g. France and Russia). Yet we *allow* such monopolies to develop.


I wonder if modern military jets can only be made by effective monopolies (or two bidder systems) due to their complexity and expense??

So what happens to Boeing's military airplane business once it no longer produces F-15 and F-18 fighters? Will it continue to fund development of F/A-XX/NGAD? Or will it close the rest of the McDonnell Douglas legacy assets, such as Phantom Works, and just concentrate on the commercial airliner market?

Conceivably, Lockheed Martin could be the last contractor standing in the United States fighter business.
 
Boeing continues to update KC-135s, B-52Hs and B-1Bs, continues to produce EA-18Gs in addition to F-15s and F/A-18E/F's it's responsible for KC-10s, and it's gearing up for KC-46A production. So it's not hurting for military business. -SP
 
stealthflanker said:
Hmm Blade antenna..Very wide beam for coverage.

Anyway will data encryption alone be enough for LPI ? In my view MADL Advantage over omnidirectional is that being pencil beam and having controllable lobes will make it very difficult to intercept.

While omnidirectional antenna will basically emit same amount of power almost everywhere including to unintended direction.

Precisely. Both LO and RA described configurations which are essentially Link-16 which is anti-jam and LPE but not LPI/LPD. As to power and cooling, MADL has like 5 watts of RF output per aperture. The main issue for B-2 and F-22 integration is likely MADL's *much* higher data rates compared to IFDL.
 
Steve Pace said:
Boeing continues to update KC-135s, B-52Hs and B-1Bs, continues to produce EA-18Gs in addition to F-15s and F/A-18E/F's it's responsible for KC-10s, and it's gearing up for KC-46A production. So it's not hurting for military business. -SP

*If* Boeing were considering an acquisition I would think it would be for Bombardier's BizJet division. As great as P-8 and E-7 are not everyone needs that high-end capability with the accompanying costs.
 
Triton said:
Avimimus said:
Funny how we look down upon nationalised aviation-military industries (e.g. France and Russia). Yet we *allow* such monopolies to develop.


I wonder if modern military jets can only be made by effective monopolies (or two bidder systems) due to their complexity and expense??

So what happens to Boeing's military airplane business once it no longer produces F-15 and F-18 fighters? Will it continue to fund development of F/A-XX/NGAD? Or will it close the rest of the McDonnell Douglas legacy assets, such as Phantom Works, and just concentrate on the commercial airliner market?

Conceivably, Lockheed Martin could be the last contractor standing in the United States fighter business.

Aside from pride, there's nothing preventing Boeing bidding on (and winning) major F-35 work share.
Surely Boeing can undercut BAE given the UK's current productivity and cost structure.
 
marauder2048 said:
... there's nothing preventing Boeing bidding on (and winning) major F-35 work share. ...

To build structures and components designed by another company probably is a different kettle of
fish, I think, than to develop a new aircraft. Converting an airliner inro a tanker/transport, ok, but
designing a new fighter ? There's not too much from the core business, that gives useful foundations.
Although certainly a lot of crocodile tears were shed, I think, that Airbus really isn't too happy with
the A400. The synergy effect may have been smaller, than anticipated and that product may be
there to stay for longer, than, say the A380. And it has to be supported for its life time, no matter
how low produced numbers are. So, even for the manufacturer, it may turn out to be more of a liability,
than an asset. A new Boeing fighter could well fall into the same category.
 
marauder2048 said:
Triton said:
Avimimus said:
Funny how we look down upon nationalised aviation-military industries (e.g. France and Russia). Yet we *allow* such monopolies to develop.


I wonder if modern military jets can only be made by effective monopolies (or two bidder systems) due to their complexity and expense??

So what happens to Boeing's military airplane business once it no longer produces F-15 and F-18 fighters? Will it continue to fund development of F/A-XX/NGAD? Or will it close the rest of the McDonnell Douglas legacy assets, such as Phantom Works, and just concentrate on the commercial airliner market?

Conceivably, Lockheed Martin could be the last contractor standing in the United States fighter business.

Aside from pride, there's nothing preventing Boeing bidding on (and winning) major F-35 work share.
Surely Boeing can undercut BAE given the UK's current productivity and cost structure.

We are no longer in the seventies over here in the UK so I don't think them winning this work away from BAe will be as easy as you think. Here's a suggestion why not consider your own current productivity and cost structure before casting aspersions on others.
 
It is also worth mentioning that aside from 'productivity and cost structure', the U.K. has a population of about 1/5th that of the United States ...so, it would be unsurprising if there was less money for fancy toys.
After all, the U.K. has only twice the population of Canada and almost no natural resources... and people laugh at the idea of a Canadian jet fighter program.


Perhaps a more plausible scenario is a "Eurofighter 2040" ...if anyone feels like going through that again.
 
That's probably already happens for several components of the latest fighters, bombers, transports
or subs, although those components may still be relatively small.
But why not build, say, carbon fibre components in India ? A thorough check before assembly is standard,
no matter, where those parts actually were built. And even carbon fibre parts aren't "top secret" anymore.
Pretty sure, the Britains could have built 80 % of all parts of the Enigma and cracking the code wouldn't
have been easier.
 
Jemiba said:
That's probably already happens for several components of the latest fighters, bombers, transports
or subs, although those components may still be relatively small.
But why not build, say, carbon fibre components in India ?

Because it's India? And given that in some cases the "special sauce" is baked right into the part that would be something you'd want to keep tabs on. One would think.
 
Don't know about the percentage of sensitive parts in, say, the F-22, but it's without doubt
below 100 % ! And even in the most modern, most secret design, there are still standard parts,
that can be produced by the proverbial blacksmith all over the world. Pay more for them, just
because they are used in F/A-XX ?

But I agree to the party ! Where and when ? ;D
 
1392912341385.jpg


http://lockheedmartin.com/us/what-we-do/emerging/advanced-aeronautics/air-dominance.html
 
sferrin said:
Jemiba said:
That's probably already happens for several components of the latest fighters, bombers, transports
or subs, although those components may still be relatively small.
But why not build, say, carbon fibre components in India ?

Because it's India? And given that in some cases the "special sauce" is baked right into the part that would be something you'd want to keep tabs on. One would think.

Hasn't India committed its fighter industry to joint projects with the Russian Federation? If there isn't an export ban on the F-X and F/A-XX, I wonder if foreign governments may want to partner in these projects? We know that Japan wanted the F-22 but couldn't purchase it because of the export ban. Mitsubishi being a partner in F-X?
 
bobbymike said:
Gorgeous picture

Indeed. By the way, the British aerospace industry called again about having their design back. ;D

On a side note, is that meant to be the Thousand Islands below the aircraft?
 
I was referring to a joke much earlier in the thread. At least, I think it was this thread.
 
This one?
http://theaviationist.com/2014/02/25/mysterious-bae-replica/
 

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Grey Havoc said:
I was referring to a joke much earlier in the thread. At least, I think it was this thread.

So why make the comment about THIS specific picture? ???
 

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