USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

I think if they can get SSLs going at a weight and heat spec that works it's the obvious way to go since you can essentially run it off the same fuel as the plane uses to fly. It's like being able to trade in your cannon rounds for extra range or thrust on the way home if you didn't fire them.
 
Maybe there is hope for a lazer fighter? http://www.gizmag.com/high-energy-laser-weapon-aircraft-turret-flight-test/33841/
 
Checked back on the thread and didn't see this story posted, hope I'm not duplicating it from somewhere else;

http://aviationweek.com/defense/next-generation-fighter-directed-energy-weapons-may-converge

Found this passage interesting:

Hostage hinted, however, that the Pentagon is funding classified efforts to maximize firepower. At one point, the service pursued the so-called Joint Dual-Role Air Dominance Missile (JDRADM), meant to combine the air-to-air capabilities of the Amraam with the radar-killing air-to-ground attack capabilities of the HARM missile into one airframe. That project—later dubbed the Next-Generation Missile—fizzled; some sources suggest research may be continuing under a classified program.
 
Air Force Avoids New-Start Ban, Launches 6th-Gen Fighter, Next-Gen JSTARS

Posted: Oct. 23, 2014

The Air Force is launching high-priority, new-start modernization programs this fall after winning approval from Congress to begin a sixth-generation fighter aircraft program and the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System replacement effort with fiscal year 2014 funds, sidestepping a statutory ban on new projects mandated by the stopgap spending bill funding the government through Dec. 11. The service, which originally planned to begin these programs in FY-15, this summer requested permission from lawmakers to reprogram prior-year funds in order to avoid schedule delays for its Next-Generation Air Dominance program and Next-Generation JSTARS program -- requests granted by all four defense committees, the Pentagon disclosed on Oct. 16.

Under the continuing resolution funding the federal government from Oct. 1 to Dec. 11, the Pentagon may not launch any new programs or expand the scope of existing programs beyond levels funded in FY-14. That restriction would have stalled these two aircraft-modernization efforts which both planned to commence using FY-15 funding. However, the Air Force's wish found favor this summer with lawmakers who tend to frown upon Pentagon requests to launch new starts in reprogramming actions.

While the Air Force in July sought $7 million in reprogrammed FY-14 funds to jump-start its $15 million FY-15 budget request for the next-gen fighter project, Congress granted a mere $1 million, a token sum that also authorized the service to formally being the program and avoids a nine- to 12-month delay to the fledgling program.

"Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) is a pre-Material Development Decision program that recently received new start approval with the FY14 reprogramming request," Air Force spokesman Ed Gulick told Inside the Air Force in an Oct. 23 statement. "While the Air Force did not receive the full funding request, planned efforts will begin with FY14 funding and continue with FY15 funding."

The new program plans to initiate an analysis of alternatives for a new fighter in FY-16 and launch a program of record in FY-18, Gulick said, a schedule that is consistent with the plan the Air Force outlined in its FY-15 budget request.

The Air Force's work on a new fighter will be coordinated with the Navy's exploration of a follow-on aircraft for the F/A-18. The two services have been directed to conduct a joint analysis of alternatives to explore their respective requirements.

"The Air Force and the Navy are establishing a Joint Integrated Product Team to develop a Joint Study Plan that will provide directive guidance for the accomplishment of the Joint AoA," Gulick told ITAF. "The intention of the Joint AoA is to leverage the Air Force and Navy AoA study methodologies for technology development commonality," he added.

Congress also granted the Air Force a reprogramming request key to one of its top-five modernization goals: a new program to replace the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System. The $5 million authorized for the effort will allow the analysis of alternatives begun with FY-13 funding to proceed "uninterrupted" into FY-15.

The FY-14 funding "will be used for activities to proceed" to a materiel development decision with the Pentagon's acquisition executive, according to Gulick. "Once the MDD is approved, the funding will support the award of multiple Technology Maturity Risk Reduction contracts in FY-15," he added. -- Jason Sherman
 
The Air Force's work on a new fighter will be coordinated with the Navy's exploration of a follow-on aircraft for the F/A-18. The two services have been directed to conduct a joint analysis of alternatives to explore their respective requirements.
Someone is going to realize the Navy should be lead service on this, right? Before its too late?
 
Moose said:
The Air Force's work on a new fighter will be coordinated with the Navy's exploration of a follow-on aircraft for the F/A-18. The two services have been directed to conduct a joint analysis of alternatives to explore their respective requirements.
Someone is going to realize the Navy should be lead service on this, right? Before its too late?

Why on earth would you want to do that?
 
"The Air Force and the Navy are establishing a Joint Integrated Product Team to develop a Joint Study Plan that will provide directive guidance for the accomplishment of the Joint AoA,"

You can't make up this stuff. Do you think the DoD could add "Joint" to a few more acronyms and programs? Made add few "transformatives" and "warfighters" in there?
 
Careful, they might then have to start throwing in Non-Joint into single service projects :p
 
BDF said:
The latter was mentioned in Grunzingers paper on DEWs as being capable of destroying airplanes at "long ranges."


Wishful thinking.
To do this from an aircraft is dramatically different, technically, than doing so from the ground. Delivering enough energy, in a short period of time, for a kill against another aircraft is no small feat. Both aircraft are moving at high speed through turbulent air that is full of particles, differences in density, weather, etc. All of these factors and more influence how much of the power output at the source reaches the target. None of these are trivial challenges.
 
They might have gotten some good data/strategies from the YAL-1 on that. I know they shut it down but a lot of that has to do with the difficulty of flying and protecting an airliner patrolling a hostile countries borders, I believe plenty of people were bullish about the laser.

I don't see why it would be significantly harder to to hit a fighter at 50km than a boost phase icbm at 250 aside from some miniaturization which would be natural over 20-30 years.

I wonder if they will have non nuclear EMPs as part of the integral aircraft rather than just a pod. You certainly hear enough about gen 5 radars burning electronics or hacking things that they are getting serious about this sort of electronic attack being possible/useful. Our at least talking about getting serious about it.
 
phrenzy said:
They might have gotten some good data/strategies from the YAL-1 on that. I know they shut it down but a lot of that has to do with the difficulty of flying and protecting an airliner patrolling a hostile countries borders, I believe plenty of people were bullish about the laser.


It has absolutely everything to do with how impractical it was as a weapon system. It was limited to liquid fueled ballistic missile targets under clear day conditions with limited range.

phrenzy said:
I don't see why it would be significantly harder to to hit a fighter at 50km than a boost phase icbm at 250 aside from some miniaturization which would be natural over 20-30 years.


Killing a liquid fueled missile ascending through the atmosphere and killing a fighter aircraft are vastly different when it comes to lasers.



A laser imparts energy to the target, *heating* it. YAL-1 heated a liquid fuelled ballistic missile under ideal conditions as it ascended, weaking the structure to failure. Ballistic missles are fragile, predictable, and full of terribly energetic materials. This makes them a somewhat ideal target for such a weapon. Even so, YAL-1 was limited to clear day/clear weather conditions, and it would be very simple for an adversary to implement effective countermeasures. The laser was *most* effective when the missile had passed through much of the atmosphere.


For aircraft to aircraft engagements, this is impractical. Lasers require time to heat the target, and ideally would be constantly heating the same area of a target. These do not work like weapons in a science fiction movie, where one PEW is a kill. Instead it is PEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW to structural failure. Flying aircraft are complex, dynamic shapes that would be difficult for a laser weapon to heat consistently to failure even under ideal conditions. Surprisingly, battlefields are often not ideal. Smoke, haze, and weather - even if not visible to the naked eye - are extremely problematic for lasers. Even under "ideal" conditions air is full of particulate matter, and between two aircraft at altitude the air will have varying density and velocity. Turbulence affects the optical properties of air, and aircraft *create* turbulence. Both laser source and target are *covered* in turbulent air. All of these things need to be compensated for.


A laser between two points that have little relative motion will "burn a hole" into the atmosphere, heating and ionizing the air in it's path. For two aircraft that have relative motion that will vary *greatly* over the course of an engagement this would complicate things significantly. Some portions of the atmosphere between them would be hot and ionized, others not. There would be discrete regions of non linear atmospheric absorbtion that would significantly alter the amount of energy delivered.


The YAL-1 had a adaptive mirror over a meter in diameter. "Miniaturizing" that to fighter-sized is not trivial, as it's size is influenced by the wavelength of the laser. Creating a physically small adaptive optics path that has enough elements and appropriate response time to compensate for atmospheric effects as well as thermal blooming is not trivial at all. The optical path must also be stabilized and isolated from vibration, as well as kept free of contaminants. Again, not trivial at all on a fighter sized aircraft. Most of the lessons learned from the YAL-1 *do not scale down well*. The optical path alone for a figher-sized offensive laser would likely require more than 10 years of development. Even then, nearly all of the limitations I have listed would still apply. The laser itself would have to be short wavelength, very high power output, and even then would be limited to clear weather, line of sight, and long dwell times on the target.
 
My understanding is that these "fighter sized" laser "turrets" are simply for defense to take out missiles fired at said aircraft. Whether they are being designed to cause structural failure (doubtful) or burn out the guidance system (likely) I don't know. But as quellish points out, you would need an extremely powerful laser to take out another aircraft in a2a combat. Maybe LM can use the new fusion reactor they're working on to power the new laser turret they just flew on a biz jet. That might take out another aircraft. ;)
 
Makes me wonder how much thermal margin is built into radomes and seeker apertures and how quickly missile designers
could respond with countermeasures e.g. distributed apertures or I'm guessing here, spin stabilization/precession.
 
Given that they are developing laser weapons to engage mortars and even artillery shells which are most assuredly not fragile like ICBMs firing from the ground to a maximum of a few km altitude I'm not sure it's such a leap. I've seen a 155 shell, it certainly didn't look delicate. Granted you have somewhat more predictable trajectory to track it's a small tough target at low altitude.

I'm not saying that the technology exists to impliment a working air to air laser weapon I'm not so convinced that it's beyond DOD contractors to develop one in the the 15-30 year time frame.

Whether one would prove more effective in combat than the mix of new missiles that might come on steam in that period is a different matter.
 
phrenzy said:
Given that they are developing laser weapons to engage mortars and even artillery shells

THEL was the size of "six city buses".

Just because movies and television have made laser blasting a common expectation for the uneducated masses, does not mean the laws of physics have suddenly changed.
 
sublight is back said:
THEL was the size of "six city buses".


HELLADS is the size of a refrigerator and has a higher power output than THEL. No one is suggesting that the air to air mission for DEW is a walk in the park, but to suggest that this hasn't been studied or any research conducted in defense circles is silly. LM just recently revealed a white program they're working on for precisely this problem (aero-adaptive, aero beam control program ABC for short). This is hardly the first known program that has been dealing with adaptive optics and the affects of atmospheric disturbances on lasers. I wouldn't be surprised if initial incarnations of a notional 6th Gen platform has a SSL that's more for defensive purposes but I do think offensive long range SSLs are possible withing the 2030 timeframe.
 
BDF said:
HELLADS is the size of a refrigerator and has a higher power output than THEL. No one is suggesting that the air to air mission for DEW is a walk in the park, but to suggest that this hasn't been studied or any research conducted in defense circles is silly.


Strangely, no matter how much it is studied the physical laws that govern it don't change.


SDI consumed billions of dollars, and several of the SDI and SDI-related programs chose to ignore basic physics as well.
 
quellish said:
SDI consumed billions of dollars, and several of the SDI and SDI-related programs chose to ignore basic physics as well.

While they tried to stretch the limits of physics, I wouldn't say they ignored them altogether. Far from it. What led to SDI's demise was something else altogether; the end of the Cold War gave SDI's domestic enemies an excuse to scrap it (the mythical 'Peace Dividend', & the 'End of History' hysteria proved to be very useful cover indeed).

An important grouping of those enemies lay (as with those of many other 'near-achievements' of the United States in the past fifty odd years or so) in the proponents of the 'Great Society', as can be seen below (see highlighted section):

Grey Havoc said:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a338619.pdf

Abstract: This study, concentrating on the period of Reagan's presidency, examines the role of Congress in
the development and evolution of the Strategic Defense Initiative, including relations between Congress
and the SDIO, which exercised primary responsibility for the program within the Department of Defense.
The argument presented here is that Congress played a larger role in shaping SDI than is generally
appreciated.

(U) At Los Alamos' rival, the Lawerence Livermore National Laboratory near San Francisco,
a similar ABM project was gathering momentum at about the same time. The coordinator, Dr.
Lowell Wood, was a protege of Dr. Edward Teller, former director of Lawrence Livermore and
hailed by many as the "father" of the U.S. H-bomb. Known as "Excalibur," the project's purpose was
to explore the practicability of a theory initially posited by Peter Hagelstein, an MIT-trained
electrical engineer, who envisioned a compact laser pumped by X-rays from a small nuclear
detonation. After several failures, the concept was successfully tested at the Nevada underground
nuclear test site late in 1980.8

(U) Encouraged by the results, Teller launched a vigorous lobbying campaign in Washington
to gain additional funding and support for X-ray laser research. With the advent of the Reagan
administration in 1981, Teller, who knew Reagan personally, was all but assured a sympathetic
audience. While governor of California in 1967, Reagan had attended a special Lawrence Livermore
briefing arranged by Teller on the progress being made there in strategic defenses, and over the years
since they had stayed in touch on such matters. In the events leading up to Reagan's SDI speech, it
seems clear that Teller's views were among those the President found most persuasive.9

(U) Excalibur, as Teller saw it, was more than simply another scientific experiment. Indeed,
at the core of the program, he believed, was the chance for a radical revision of U.S. strategic
doctrine. "A single x-ray laser ... the size of an executive desk," he argued,"... could potentially
shoot down the entire Soviet land-based missile force."10 With such enormous potential, in Teller's
estimation, the X-ray laser and similar new technologies, if fully exploited, offered the opportunity
to liberate humanity, once and for all, from the dismal threat of nuclear war. Instead of a strategy
of deterrence resting on the threat of mutual assured destruction, or MAD, Teller foresaw the coming
of a new era of mutual assured survival built around defensive rather than offensive weaponry.
"The policy of the West," he argued,

is to preserve peace. We tried to do it by deterrence—because on the
other side, in the East, there is an expansionist, imperialist power.
Peace was to be preserved by the obvious means of deterrence: the
menace of retaliation. ... I don't think any of us liked it from the
very beginning. It has been not quite morally acceptable; not to me,
not (I believe) to any reasonable person. There seemed to be no
alternative. Now an alternative has emerged. We find in our
developing technology more and more possibilities of real defence.
Not with the idea and, I would certainly say, not with the assurance
of complete protection, but with the idea that defense can make the
result of aggression doubtful. . . .11


______________________
8 William Broad, Star Warriors: The Young Scientists Who Are Inventing the Weaponry of Space
(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985), 118-119; Clarence A. Robinson, Jr., "Advance Made
on High Energy Laser," Aviation Week and Space Technology, Feb. 23, 1981: 25-27.

9 Sanford Lakoff and Herbert York, A Shield in Space? (Berkeley, Calif.: University of
California Press, 1989), 11-14. Also see Broad, Star Warriors. 122; and Gregg Herken, "The
Earthly Origins of Star Wars," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, vol. 43, no. 8 (Oct. 1987),
20-22.

10 Ltr, Teller to Paul H. Nitze, Dec. 28, 1984, in Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. 44 (Nov.
1988): 5.

11 Teller quoted in Michael Charlton, From Deterrence to Defense (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard
University Press, 1987), 95-96.

Exactly what the critics found objectionable about SDI depended largely on their
personal preferences and what they perceived to be the priorities of their constituents. The most
often mentioned criticism was the program's cost, not only during the research phase as outlined in
the Fletcher report, but as a possible option for future deployment. Among Democrats, especially
liberals and those representing declining urban centers or populations dependent on federal
entitlement programs, there was a tendency to regard SDI as a menacing competitor for increasingly
scarce resources due to the Reagan administration's reordering of social spending priorities. By
limiting funding during the research phase, they apparently saw an opportunity to slow the program
to the point that any decision on deployment would be delayed indefinitely, thereby curbing the
chance that SDI might establish a rival claim on the budget.
 
Grey Havoc said:
quellish said:
SDI consumed billions of dollars, and several of the SDI and SDI-related programs chose to ignore basic physics as well.

While they tried to stretch the limits of physics, I wouldn't say they ignored them altogether. Far from it. What led to SDI's demise was something else altogether; the end of the Cold War gave SDI's domestic enemies an excuse to scrap it (the mythical 'Peace Dividend', & the 'End of History' hysteria proved to be very useful cover indeed).

An important grouping of those enemies lay (as with those of many other 'near-achievements' of the United States in the past fifty odd years or so) in the proponents of the 'Great Society', as can be seen below (see highlighted section):

Grey Havoc said:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a338619.pdf

Not to stray too far off thread but Mr. Havoc very well put there were many systems that were "politically" impossible but far from physically impossible shelved or cancelled.
 
quellish said:
Even so, YAL-1 was limited to clear day/clear weather conditions, and it would be very simple for an adversary to implement effective countermeasures.


Such as? Spinning the missile doesn't work. Neither does a polished, mirrored surface. The only thing that might actually have a chance of working is spraying an ablative coating similar to that used on the X-15A-2 over critical portions of the missile -- and that reduces throw weight.
 
RyanCrierie said:
Such as? Spinning the missile doesn't work. Neither does a polished, mirrored surface. The only thing that might actually have a chance of working is spraying an ablative coating similar to that used on the X-15A-2 over critical portions of the missile -- and that reduces throw weight.


Actually, rotating the missile does work. Coatings that are poor absorbers also work, but can be impractical.
 

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Grey Havoc said:
While they tried to stretch the limits of physics, I wouldn't say they ignored them altogether. Far from it. What led to SDI's demise was something else altogether; the end of the Cold War gave SDI's domestic enemies an excuse to scrap it (the mythical 'Peace Dividend', & the 'End of History' hysteria proved to be very useful cover indeed).


Sure they did. A number of the SDI programs were examined by outside groups, and there were several cases where the project goals were outside physical law. Some of these reports are available in the public domain, several are not. Some of these programs made claims, wether intentional or not, that did not stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny.


Since you have highlighted the EXCALIBUR related programs I'll use that as an example. On a number of occasions the X-ray laser was promoted as a system that could effectively engage targets in the lower atmosphere or on the ground. The nuclear pumped X-ray laser was (also) advertised as an effective boost phase weapon.
It doesn't work that way.
 
quellish said:
Grey Havoc said:
While they tried to stretch the limits of physics, I wouldn't say they ignored them altogether. Far from it. What led to SDI's demise was something else altogether; the end of the Cold War gave SDI's domestic enemies an excuse to scrap it (the mythical 'Peace Dividend', & the 'End of History' hysteria proved to be very useful cover indeed).


Sure they did. A number of the SDI programs were examined by outside groups, and there were several cases where the project goals were outside physical law. Some of these reports are available in the public domain, several are not. Some of these programs made claims, wether intentional or not, that did not stand up to even the most cursory scrutiny.


Since you have highlighted the EXCALIBUR related programs I'll use that as an example. On a number of occasions the X-ray laser was promoted as a system that could effectively engage targets in the lower atmosphere or on the ground. The nuclear pumped X-ray laser was (also) advertised as an effective boost phase weapon.
It doesn't work that way.

I recall that the x-ray laser (nuclear pumped) that the physics was successfully demonstrated to work in the early 80s before SDI was made public. The problem was the aiming quotient....
 
tacitblue said:
I recall that the x-ray laser (nuclear pumped) that the physics was successfully demonstrated to work in the early 80s before SDI was made public. The problem was the aiming quotient....


An X-ray laser is ineffective against targets within the lower 50km of the atmosphere. X-rays cannot propagate coherently within that part of the atmosphere. A X-ray laser, nuclear pumped or not, is only useful if both the laser and the target are above that part of the atmosphere.


The original vision for the nuclear pumped X-ray laser was launch from submarines into the upper atmosphere to engage missiles in the boost phase. Not only was the impractical for many, many reasons, but the laser would be ineffective. This was a case of ignoring the physics.
 
quellish said:
RyanCrierie said:
Such as? Spinning the missile doesn't work. Neither does a polished, mirrored surface. The only thing that might actually have a chance of working is spraying an ablative coating similar to that used on the X-15A-2 over critical portions of the missile -- and that reduces throw weight.


Actually, rotating the missile does work. Coatings that are poor absorbers also work, but can be impractical.

Thanks for posting this but the caption text doesn't seem to match the figure labels for plots (b) and (c); is the stair-step like increase in temperature for rotation along the missile's axis?
 
quellish, is the document containing the graph in the public domain? would you have a link? sounds like an interesting read...
 
AeroFranz said:
quellish, is the document containing the graph in the public domain? would you have a link? sounds like an interesting read...


http://scienceandglobalsecurity.org/archive/sgs18stupl.pdf
 
tacitblue said:
I recall that the x-ray laser (nuclear pumped) that the physics was successfully demonstrated to work in the early 80s before SDI was made public. The problem was the aiming quotient....
The physics work, but it's actually worse than simple aiming problems. First, the x-rays are going to come out of BOTH sides of the lasing rods. Which means that you have to be aware of what's behind the laser as well.
Second, and much worse, there is no effective way of lensing x-rays on such scale. And the dispersion of even th emost effective lasing rod we can make is really horrid, making bomb-pumped x-ray laser a weapon only really effective at short range.

If you're going to use nuclear weapons as a base for a ranged weapon, using casaba-howitser (weaponized Orion Drive pulse units) might actually be more effective.
 
quellish said:
Actually, rotating the missile does work. Coatings that are poor absorbers also work, but can be impractical.


Do you have a reference for the publication that graph is from?

EDIT: Nevermind.
 
I hate to derail this; maybe we should start a separate thread for lasers?

LANL did a study in 1988 which interestingly ran the same numbers apparently; but came to different conclusions:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a338857.pdf

"A related countermeasure that has an impact similar to retrofit hardening is spinning the booster around its vertical axis to continually bring more existing shielding material under the laser beam. Even for large amounts of hardening, laser kill times are on the order of a second or less.17

Thus, for beams that can track the hot irradiated spot, the missile would have to rotate at least once per per second to have any impact, which does not appear to be a practical retrofit to existing missiles.18

Even for a non-tracking beam, the 3 m diameter SS-18 would have to rotate at over 20 rpm to significantly increase laser requirements."


...

"For the SS-18's r = 1.5 m, a beam with ds = 1 m and a nominal t = 0.3 s gives w > 2.2 rad/s, i.e., over 20 rpm, which is difficult with liquid boosters. There are also accuracy issues, in that RVs released by PBVs rotating at such rates would miss their targets altogether. "

20 RPM is about 0.33 Hertz; which aligns up with the selection of 0.3 hertz rotation for the graph you posted Quellish. Who would have thought that a group named "Institute for Peace Research and Security Policy (IFSH)" would play semantic games with an issue such as this? ::)
 
RyanCrierie said:
I hate to derail this; maybe we should start a separate thread for lasers?

LANL did a study in 1988 which interestingly ran the same numbers apparently; but came to different conclusions:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a338857.pdf

"A related countermeasure that has an impact similar to retrofit hardening is spinning the booster around its vertical axis to continually bring more existing shielding material under the laser beam. Even for large amounts of hardening, laser kill times are on the order of a second or less.17

Thus, for beams that can track the hot irradiated spot, the missile would have to rotate at least once per per second to have any impact, which does not appear to be a practical retrofit to existing missiles.18

Even for a non-tracking beam, the 3 m diameter SS-18 would have to rotate at over 20 rpm to significantly increase laser requirements."


...

"For the SS-18's r = 1.5 m, a beam with ds = 1 m and a nominal t = 0.3 s gives w > 2.2 rad/s, i.e., over 20 rpm, which is difficult with liquid boosters. There are also accuracy issues, in that RVs released by PBVs rotating at such rates would miss their targets altogether. "

20 RPM is about 0.33 Hertz; which aligns up with the selection of 0.3 hertz rotation for the graph you posted Quellish. Who would have thought that a group named "Institute for Peace Research and Security Policy (IFSH)" would play semantic games with an issue such as this? ::)

IMHO it would be win-win as the Soviet's tried to modify its' 1600 ICBMs/SLBMs into shiny, rotating missiles.
 
Lasers have also shot down artillery shells, which spin at around 1,600+ RPM and are relatively thick walled, solid construction items compared to say, missile bodies.
 
RyanCrierie said:
Lasers have also shot down artillery shells, which spin at around 1,600+ RPM and are relatively thick walled, solid construction items compared to say, missile bodies.


I think the attack geometry makes an artillery shell shoot-down easier, as most energy is going to be absorbed by the front of the shell, if the laser is acting in point defence.


Other factors would be beam footprint and intensity. If the beam's intensity and footprint are big enough spinning will make little difference, as half the shell will be absorbing beam energy at any time. With a ballistic missile, beam footprint is likely to be smaller, making rotation more effective. If it is liquid fuelled there will also be a heat-sink effect.
 
I doubt you will be able to maintain the same concentrated beam in the ballistic missile case as with the rocket/mortar, seen as the distance the beam has to cover in the atmosphere is 10x-100x in the former scenario, which (I would think) guarantees a more diffuse beam (so you're not going to get as many j/m2, but you are heating a greater area).
This is pure speculation on my part!
 
Aren't the "kill mechanisms" for YAL-1 and the other more tactical laser systems (e.g. HEL MD) fundamentally different? I believe the latter kills RAM targets through deflagration whereas I thought YAL-1 was geared towards damaging structure and letting Max Q do the rest.

Perhaps we should split this discussion into a separate topic...
 
starviking said:
RyanCrierie said:
Lasers have also shot down artillery shells, which spin at around 1,600+ RPM and are relatively thick walled, solid construction items compared to say, missile bodies.


I think the attack geometry makes an artillery shell shoot-down easier, as most energy is going to be absorbed by the front of the shell, if the laser is acting in point defence.


Other factors would be beam footprint and intensity. If the beam's intensity and footprint are big enough spinning will make little difference, as half the shell will be absorbing beam energy at any time. With a ballistic missile, beam footprint is likely to be smaller, making rotation more effective. If it is liquid fuelled there will also be a heat-sink effect.

true but the distances involved in an air to air fighter laser interception might be a little closer.

I wonder how effective a DEW attack directly against the pilot in the cockpit would be? I know lasers for the purpose of binding are banned by treaty but would you really need that much energy to scald a pilot to the point of taking them out of the fight?
The introduction of lasers might end up bringing about the end of the mark 1 eyeball for any use beyond looking around an enclosed cockpit. Even if lasers aren't introduced for the purpose of attacking the pilot the risk of burns or blindness might be very real.

Maybe they will go back to the cold war tactic of sending pilots out in operations with an eye patch so if they are blinded in one eye they can calmly take the patch off and fly on the remaining eye.
 
LM (Code One magazine) released this recently as the Next Generation Air Dominance fighter. -SP
 

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